What does "original" mean?

[c24/7]

As I fear I've been killing myself collecting at a standard few do - to me it's been a passion compared to searching/finding hen's teeth, and for a large part succeeded.

Other than New or NOS - as in unused Factory inventory.

I've considered since my humble beginnings in the watch collecting genre, "ORIGINAL" to mean as the factory produced the timepiece, granted worn/broken/damaged parts must have been replaced by FACTORY Originals/Replacements ONLY, and those replaced parts to have been FACTORY model/reference number/year-era SPECIFIC, in the very least (and even maybe a disclosure of such). And preferably carried out either by the originating factory, or by factory trained/authorized personnel.

As far a manufacturers offering certificates (Extracts of Records), this adds to the inherit value of items collected and enhances investment value via historical facts. Thus, further demonstrating a degree of authenticity/correctness/originality of the piece - and sure there have been lapses in judgement (the whole Omegamania sharade for example), regardless, being that I am not part of Antiquorum (or share the vested interest of that pair), I still actively pursue said records to be able to confirm the movement (based on serials) was put into said watch at said point in history - provenance in essence.

Much like in classic car collecting, where the chassis/motors number match etc, and those specific cars command considerabe amounts over those that do not bear matching numbers - granted we are talking investment quality watches, not beaters of course similar rules should (and do) apply, at least to me.

And I understand, for many reasons throughout the years on vintage timepieces - be they budgetary, or lack of sourcing the correct Factory ref# specific parts - watches are not what I was taught to address as "ORIGINAL", and that's fine just as long as they are described correctly.

A final example... these "supposed" NOS Omega SHOMs and SM300s... if the watches were not sitting in a vault, or were UNWORN/UNUSED inventory from a jewelry store that went under etc in the 1970s, those watches should be described DIFFERENTLY (possibly as "CASED" AFTER the era they were originally produced using old and new Omega parts...) NOT as NOS - understand my point?

I see the entire "ORIGINAL" description similarly. And these things adversely affect the entire watch collecting industry, as it becomes difficult to believe.

Maybe times have changed, where original now means something much easier to obtain (allowing for more deviations), and I've been wearing myself thin for nothing more than self satisfaction -- but you know what, it does feel gratifying :drunken:

What's the concensus of what "original" means TODAY with regards to a vintage watch?

Cheers, and I'll miss you guys, as we take off for Dubai for the very first time tomorrow at 5 pm, anybody have any leads for watches there?

[keitht]

I have answered similar posts before...and what follows is only of course my opinion.

If you want to be totally 100% originality..then the watch needs to come from the original owner..who has never had it serviced, nor refinished..and ensure he gives you a signed statement of that. Or be truly NOS..and even then its possible parts have been replaced to bring the peice back to life.


Other than that you can get caught up in all manner of interpretations etc...like..is a classic car original beause someone has replaced the tyres for modern ones....sigh..

It can all then get rather silly I fear....with experts disputing certain things...bracelet type...dial colouration, box design..

So in summary

A truly original peice, by your definition at least would be a very hard thing to find and/or actually prove.

K

[GeoffD]

To get a watch that has been used to be completely original would be incredibly difficult, as it is with "Concours d' Elegance" standard cars.
Manufacturers change the suppliers they use over the years, the specifications change slightly, so even if say for example Omega fit a new main spring to the 561 in your Pie Pan Constellation there's no guarantee that it's the same spec as the original and is very unlikely to be from the same factory.
You need a little latitude or it would drive you crazy.

[c24/7]

So in summary

A truly original peice, by your definition at least would be a very hard thing to find and/or actually prove.

K

It's like looking for hen's teeth!

Next best thing would of course be getting a factory service... is what I've concluded, requesting the bear minimum done esthetically, and I've never been put in a position where a complete movement swap was suggested - thankfully!

Thank you Keith for your exceptional response... my apologies for bringing the question up (yet again), but based on recent threads, I wondered where "original" landed on fellow collector's pursuit list.

[miked10270]

Yeah... There's actually a "sliding scale" of originality.

Perhaps the best reference is in the field of concourse cars, where (afaik) nothing has ever scored absolutely perfect (modern lubricants, tyres, brake pads, tyres, etc...).

As such, at least all parts should be identical (at least in appearance) to the ones fitted when the item left the factory.

That said, it would be insane to ignore design & material shortcomings and any later rectifications. For example (again from the car world) it's expected that an original Lotus Elan replacement body shell now comes with stainless steel bobbins instead of the original mild steel ones. An NSU Ro80 WILL have modern Mazda rotor tips. A Citroen DS will have modern seals and hydraulic fluid. Etc...

SO... Any replaced parts should appear identical to those supplied when new, and any unique identifying numbers will have been preserved.

That's really about as good as it gets with any mechanical item.

Mike.

[ralphy]

Trigger's brush.

:wink:

R

[Andyg]

Interesting question - to me there are a number of possible classifications

"completely original" - means as it originally left the factor, so no replacement parts - the only thing that would be an acceptable replacement part would be a replacement leather or NATO strap. These watches do exist, either from original owners who never bothered to get them serviced or vault watches. They should also be complete with Box Papers, etc, etc.

"Genuine" are watches which have gone through the mill, i.e. have been serviced, had bit replaced dial/hands/bezels/crystal - all with genuine new or vintage genuine parts that are totally correct to that watch/year.

Fracken watches by my definition are watches which have been made up with genuine or aftermarket parts which may or may not be genuine but are not correct to this particular model/year - irrespective of whether that part was supplied or fitted by the manufacture during servicing. This s often seen with many vintage Rolex's which claim to be 100% genuine (which they may be in terms of the parts used), but are wrong to that watch model or date. For example a Double Red dial (genuine) fitted in a 1978 1665 (also gen), but it is not a DRDS. As you could also argue watches originally fitted with twin lock crowns, which have been upgraded to tripple locks - usually by Rolex themself are also Franken - a bit like sticking a 997 engine in a 2.7 RS - it would be all original parts and would be better (as a car), but it ain't original.


However what really pisses me off, is when I see things like dials (which started life at the Rolex factory), and are therefore "genuine", but which have been completely refinished beging sold as Genuine - yes the baseplate might be genuine - but the dial as a whole isn't :twisted:


Andy

[Stanford]

I think I may be a bit confused / inconsistent on this point :? here goes:

If I saw a watch described as in "original" condition I would expect it to have had no significant parts changed (case, dial, hands, crown, movement, crystal).
If a watch has "original "parts they could be either original to the watch or from the same era as the watch (possibly salvaged from another watch).

On the other hand, "genuine" could be modern replacement parts from the factory, but not contemporary to the watch.

[c24/7]

Fracken watches by my definition are watches which have been made up with genuine or aftermarket parts which may or may not be genuine but are not correct to this particular model/year - irrespective of whether that part was supplied or fitted by the manufacture during servicing. This s often seen with many vintage Rolex's which claim to be 100% genuine (which they may be in terms of the parts used), but are wrong to that watch model or date. For example a Double Red dial (genuine) fitted in a 1978 1665 (also gen), but it is not a DRDS. As you could also argue watches originally fitted with twin lock crowns, which have been upgraded to tripple locks - usually by Rolex themself are also Franken - a bit like sticking a 997 engine in a 2.7 RS - it would be all original parts and would be better (as a car), but it ain't original.
Andy

Interesting thoughts indeed, I concur 8)

Based on what you've outlined I would assume numbers/serials should match, needless to say.

[boddah]

Trigger's brush.

:wink:

R

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Dapper]

Trigger's brush.

:wink:

R

:lol: :lol: :lol:

:lol: Excellent :lol: