Electric cars-got to be a viable option now?

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Originally Posted by GraniteQuarry

Anyone feeling brave? RS E-Tron GT Saloon at 38% or £50k off list :welcoming:

https://www.drivethedeal.com/SpecialOffers.aspx

What does this say about where the EV market is going...

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It was mentioned a few pages back, I think most commenters thought it wasn’t a £134k car to begin with really, especially when you could buy one that looked visually similar and wasn’t much slower for £90k even at list.

There also a facelifted e-tron GT coming sometime this year, I guess there’s a few people happy to wait for the updated version if they’re spending that kind of cash.

It’s not a volume seller, so don’t really think it says anything about where the general EV market is going, you can’t get 38% off EVs routinely. There’s some pretty chunky discounts on all the top end cars on DtD, big discounts on the Q7 as well and they mention they won’t be facelifted cars.

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Originally Posted by hilly10

I had a chat to the innovation dept at JCB last year they were telling me while all the micro and small machines will be continue to be developed as electric, they are forging ahead with Hydrogen for the big stuff. I would expect big trucks to be the same.

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Similarly, I sit next to a season ticket holder at Leicester Tigers who works for Caterpillar. Subject to the usual commercial sensitivities, he doesn’t go into specific details, but they’re working on hydrogen and electric power units with partners, the latter being hot swappable battery packs. The hydrogen options were existing diesel engines modified to run on hydrogen as welll, but NOx was still a problem.

Electric motors, weight and torque are good partners for bulldozers etc.

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Originally Posted by hilly10

I had a chat to the innovation dept at JCB last year they were telling me while all the micro and small machines will be continue to be developed as electric, they are forging ahead with Hydrogen for the big stuff. I would expect big trucks to be the same.

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I agree, HGV could be the first to adopt H2 as opposed to a normal EV. However I believe they are also considering electric HGV taking their power from an overhead supply via a catenary on Motorways across Europe. They would only required batteries for off motorway driving, or a change of tractor at both ends of the motorway journey, the tractor taking another trailer to the motorway, further or back.

With HGVs I suspect the next major move will be towards CNG vehicles. 90% carbon reduction, £300k on-cost front end, which is paid for over life via cheaper fuel. It’s a genuine, current, viable solution to improving scope 1 emissions.

The big unknown, and probably the key to long term uptake, is reliability and maintenance costs over life.

Electric is gaining some traction, but personally I can only see it being viable for short shunting journeys, and with light goods on board. It’ll never move a 44t artic effectively.


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Originally Posted by Tooks

Electric motors, weight and torque are good partners for bulldozers etc.

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I know a guy who has a forklift truck business; there’s a supplier continually trying to sell him Lithium ion batteries because they are smaller and lighter than traditional batteries.

He can’t understand that that is exactly what they don’t need in forklift trucks!

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Originally Posted by mrsammyp

For those that have an EV and want to avoid the increase of tax next year (for 12 months anyway), below is a YouTube video of how to realign to 1 March 2024.

Just done mine (was due 1 June) and took two minutes - need V5

https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=WKn27...&v=cS3VmT557lQ


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Thanks for that, I had wondered about SORNing it for a couple of days but did this. Lots of "if DVLA told you to tax it" statements but no harm in trying.

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Originally Posted by mrsammyp

For those that have an EV and want to avoid the increase of tax next year (for 12 months anyway), below is a YouTube video of how to realign to 1 March 2024.

Just done mine (was due 1 June) and took two minutes - need V5

https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=WKn27...&v=cS3VmT557lQ


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Can’t see this working. But I guess you will find out in 12 months.
I suspect when trying to tax it in 12 months you will get 1 month free (March 2025) and pay for 11 months.

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Originally Posted by Boss13

Can’t see this working. But I guess you will find out in 12 months.
I suspect when trying to tax it in 12 months you will get 1 month free (March 2025) and pay for 11 months.

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I have to disagree but we’ll see


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Rightly or wrongly, imho we are so far down the line with EV design and production and charger installation that it seems massively unlikely that Hydrogen or any other alternative will replace passenger EV’s in the near feature - or even the next 20 years. That’s just not how the world works. I’m not really sure why people are so convinced EV’s are somehow unworkable - when plenty of people are driving around in them quite happily like they do any other car. HGV’s may well be different, but as a car driver that’s irrelevant to me tbh. The depreciation thing seems to me just something that happens after a global pandemic/introduction of a new technology. In that case, at this stage in EV development you lease the car don’t buy it. Or stick with an ICE car and see what happens. I do think cars like the new Dacia Spring will make an excellent second car for all those ‘popping to the shops’ trips - especially when they depreciate too!

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Originally Posted by RobDad

Rightly or wrongly, imho we are so far down the line with EV design and production and charger installation that it seems massively unlikely that Hydrogen or any other alternative will replace passenger EV’s in the near feature - or even the next 20 years. That’s just not how the world works. I’m not really sure why people are so convinced EV’s are somehow unworkable - when plenty of people are driving around in them quite happily like they do any other car. HGV’s may well be different, but as a car driver that’s irrelevant to me tbh. The depreciation thing seems to me just something that happens after a global pandemic/introduction of a new technology. In that case, at this stage in EV development you lease the car don’t buy it. Or stick with an ICE car and see what happens. I do think cars like the new Dacia Spring will make an excellent second car for all those ‘popping to the shops’ trips - especially when they depreciate too!

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Not sure how you equate the current situation as 'so far down the line'?. Boss of Toyota worldwide has stated publicly that they see no more than 30% of their total production being solely EV.

Still very early days for the transition from ICE.

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Originally Posted by RobDad

Rightly or wrongly, imho we are so far down the line with EV design and production and charger installation that it seems massively unlikely that Hydrogen or any other alternative will replace passenger EV’s in the near feature - or even the next 20 years. That’s just not how the world works. I’m not really sure why people are so convinced EV’s are somehow unworkable - when plenty of people are driving around in them quite happily like they do any other car. HGV’s may well be different, but as a car driver that’s irrelevant to me tbh. The depreciation thing seems to me just something that happens after a global pandemic/introduction of a new technology. In that case, at this stage in EV development you lease the car don’t buy it. Or stick with an ICE car and see what happens. I do think cars like the new Dacia Spring will make an excellent second car for all those ‘popping to the shops’ trips - especially when they depreciate too!

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Most of us on here are of a generation that is more likely to be stuck in our ways and reluctant to change something thats been tried and tested for year (ICE) In 10-15 years time this EV malarkey will more than likely be considered normal by the younger gen and we’ll look back and wonder what the fuss was all about.

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Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK

Not sure how you equate the current situation as 'so far down the line'?. Boss of Toyota worldwide has stated publicly that they see no more than 30% of their total production being solely EV.

Still very early days for the transition from ICE.

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Toyota sell millions of cars but they were so slow to the EV party that they're flagging behind. Not only that their cars are bloody woeful in comparison to range, theres a good What-car vid on youtube where they drive 20 different EVs around milbrooke….The Toyotas run flat well before other makes. They're also the most expensive there.
https://youtu.be/c10Ck84QgEI?si=VSbl4S647KBOcRjS

Also remember, it was Toyota who tried to stop the move to EVs (or at least slow it down) with their Self Charging Hybrid advertising campaign.

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Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli

I was talking to a bloke at the weekend who is a contract manager for a truck / lorry company. They supply electric vehicles and are already planning for them being obsolete. Once hydrogen vehicles hit the market, electric is dead. He spoke to a company last week that want a fleet of electric trucks that cost £265k each. They want them on a 6 year lease plan and asked what their value will be at the end of that period....£1200!

They'll break then for parts.

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That’s not uncommon anyway, we plan our Artics on an 8 year to zero plan, that gives them around 1m miles, our rigids are on 5 year deals and they can have them back anytime, they’re at 500,000k at 3 1/2 years and are constantly breaking down, out of 17 we bought we can only plan for having 10 on the road. They will go to Africa when the lease is up in 15 months.

As for the E-Tron Gt RS I see a few on the roads and personally I think they’re the best looking of all the EVs, and not the jelly mould shape of the rest. I’m sure it and the tacan have lots of cross platform bits they share.


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Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli

I was talking to a bloke at the weekend who is a contract manager for a truck / lorry company. They supply electric vehicles and are already planning for them being obsolete. Once hydrogen vehicles hit the market, electric is dead. He spoke to a company last week that want a fleet of electric trucks that cost £265k each. They want them on a 6 year lease plan and asked what their value will be at the end of that period....£1200!

They'll break then for parts.

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give us a shout when hydrogen vehicles hit the market at scale!

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Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK

Not sure how you equate the current situation as 'so far down the line'?. Boss of Toyota worldwide has stated publicly that they see no more than 30% of their total production being solely EV.

Still very early days for the transition from ICE.

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Chris, you came out with the "boss of Toyota" comments several weeks back and at the time it was pointed out that he was a far from unbiased source, what with the current Toyota and Lexus EVs being completely crap. Additionally, why would you listen to just that one person? There are lots of others who would give a more upbeat assessment, though I don't think anyone is suggesting a 100% worldwide switchover to EV.

You seem very intent on EVs being not fit for purpose - can I ask why this is? There are a lot of people who are very happy with them (me included) and for whom they work very well. I find that some of the most vociferous critics haven't sat in an EV or driven one.

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Originally Posted by Dave+63

Nothing that ever been on the road does.

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The wheel has done quite well since it first appeared.

Yes I thought they would but did not know so while obvious thought I’d check.


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Originally Posted by cyrusir

give us a shout when hydrogen vehicles hit the market at scale!

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It is possible domestic and commercial vehicles go separate ways I guess. If the yard is isolated perhaps power available may be a consideration.

Up here some companies run a night shift a decent bit of time particularly with tar jobs.

I am interested in the size of battery needed for an artic and its tare with an ejector compared to a walking floor trailer. Just curious on the impact the battery etc makes to its nett


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Originally Posted by Longblackcoat

Chris, you came out with the "boss of Toyota" comments several weeks back and at the time it was pointed out that he was a far from unbiased source, what with the current Toyota and Lexus EVs being completely crap. Additionally, why would you listen to just that one person? There are lots of others who would give a more upbeat assessment, though I don't think anyone is suggesting a 100% worldwide switchover to EV.

You seem very intent on EVs being not fit for purpose - can I ask why this is? There are a lot of people who are very happy with them (me included) and for whom they work very well. I find that some of the most vociferous critics haven't sat in an EV or driven one.

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Firstly they are the second largest car manufacturer on the planet, nothing more than that (and they may have done a little bit of thinking/research on this?).

I have never said that they are unfit for purpose, they are currently not fit for our usage. I have driven one and it was a reasonable drive. I suspect what is coming across is I do not see them as quite the panacea that others do?

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Originally Posted by UMBROSUS

It is possible domestic and commercial vehicles go separate ways I guess. If the yard is isolated perhaps power available may be a consideration.

Up here some companies run a night shift a decent bit of time particularly with tar jobs.

I am interested in the size of battery needed for an artic and its tare with an ejector compared to a walking floor trailer. Just curious on the impact the battery etc makes to its nett


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That’s going to be the big stumbling block to wagons. The only thing I can find is this from America and it’s not good reading for the environmentalists
https://www.trucking.org/news-insigh...truck-mandates

I spend my nights on the A1 and M1 doing around 430miles at 44 ton. For this job electric is a total non starter. One of the places I go has an electric 18 tonner but it can only carry 8 and is only used on round trips less than 80 miles.

If they could get over the weight issue, the only way for it to work in our industry is if they did a full battery swap in your 45 minute break time, but as it stands if your not in a services by 5pm you’ve no chance of parking so there would need to be serious infrastructure put in place, and the locals would be banging on the planners doors to reject any application.

So Derv will be here for a long time yet !!


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Originally Posted by aa388

That’s going to be the big stumbling block to wagons. The only thing I can find is this from America and it’s not good reading for the environmentalists
https://www.trucking.org/news-insigh...truck-mandates

I spend my nights on the A1 and M1 doing around 430miles at 44 ton. For this job electric is a total non starter. One of the places I go has an electric 18 tonner but it can only carry 8 and is only used on round trips less than 80 miles.

If they could get over the weight issue, the only way for it to work in our industry is if they did a full battery swap in your 45 minute break time, but as it stands if your not in a services by 5pm you’ve no chance of parking so there would need to be serious infrastructure put in place, and the locals would be banging on the planners doors to reject any application.

So Derv will be here for a long time yet !!

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Which is where a continuous above-head power supply with only a token battery may make sense, sorte of trolley-HGV. Whether the idea works... we'll see.

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Originally Posted by aa388

That’s going to be the big stumbling block to wagons. The only thing I can find is this from America and it’s not good reading for the environmentalists
https://www.trucking.org/news-insigh...truck-mandates

I spend my nights on the A1 and M1 doing around 430miles at 44 ton. For this job electric is a total non starter. One of the places I go has an electric 18 tonner but it can only carry 8 and is only used on round trips less than 80 miles.

If they could get over the weight issue, the only way for it to work in our industry is if they did a full battery swap in your 45 minute break time, but as it stands if your not in a services by 5pm you’ve no chance of parking so there would need to be serious infrastructure put in place, and the locals would be banging on the planners doors to reject any application.

So Derv will be here for a long time yet !!


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I’m sure you’re right about Derv being around for a long time yet, but just like EVs won’t suit every private car driver same with truck operators. They will work for a lot of operators though.

I found this ‘Fully Charged’ episode interesting with ‘Kryton’ formerly of Red Dwarf. He visited a company in Australia last year to see what they were doing with electrifying trucks, and I’ve viewed a few more similar videos that were quite positive.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=9eYLtPSf...wSVr4cqVaLJiPI

I seem to remember that Pepsi Co are running a fleet of Tesla Semi trucks in the USA, big volume but not particularly heavy loads running set routes between manufacturing plants. I’m sure Google has the details, as well as the horror stories!

Pepsi here in the UK are doing a few trials as well, for specific applications.

https://www.pepsico.co.uk/news/stori...lectric-trucks

Is it all greenwash? Possibly, but everything starts somewhere I guess, and as with passenger vehicles people doing what they can where they can all helps lessen impacts.

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Originally Posted by Saint-Just

Which is where a continuous above-head power supply with only a token battery may make sense, sorte of trolley-HGV. Whether the idea works... we'll see.

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It would e work well. Put them on the inside lane and have fleet of HGVs doing 56mph in convoy other vehicles stay in lane two and three because let’s face it, no one uses the inside lane!

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Originally Posted by Dave+63

It would e work well. Put them on the inside lane and have fleet of HGVs doing 56mph in convoy other vehicles stay in lane two and three because let’s face it, no one uses the inside lane!

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What I have seen is they can actually pass another slower HGV, using their inboard battery that will be re-topped when they go back on the inside lane and reconnect to the network. And as of course the system cannot be extended across A and B roads, it will require and adaptation whereas instead of going from manufacturer/distributor A to B point of sale/use (A and B can be in different countries), A local haulage company would take the trailer to a hub near a motorway, where an e-traction would take it to another near B, and a local company would finish the journey

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Originally Posted by Saint-Just

What I have seen is they can actually pass another slower HGV, using their inboard battery that will be re-topped when they go back on the inside lane and reconnect to the network. And as of course the system cannot be extended across A and B roads, it will require and adaptation whereas instead of going from manufacturer/distributor A to B point of sale/use (A and B can be in different countries), A local haulage company would take the trailer to a hub near a motorway, where an e-traction would take it to another near B, and a local company would finish the journey

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It’s certainly workable Marc, but we don’t want them straying into lane two.

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Originally Posted by Dave+63

It’s certainly workable Marc, but we don’t want them straying into lane two.

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Lol

No we don't, really, but we also need to exit where we had planned to, and a slower lorry would create an uninterrupted convoy that could block your access to the exit when you get there.

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Originally Posted by Saint-Just

Lol

No we don't, really, but we also need to exit where we had planned to, and a slower lorry would create an uninterrupted convoy that could block your access to the exit when you get there.

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Might as well just invest in a national train network with shipping containers. Maybe HS3 but this time we’ll go to Edinburgh or Aberdeen then onto Inverness.

Unless elec uses the existing infrastructure I doubt it has the legs to stand on its own. Its big appeal is cost.
With tax breaks cheap elec deals and no duty.


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Originally Posted by Longblackcoat

……… I find that some of the most vociferous critics haven't sat in an EV or driven one.

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This. Let alone owned one.

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Originally Posted by UMBROSUS

Might as well just invest in a national train network with shipping containers. Maybe HS3 but this time we’ll go to Edinburgh or Aberdeen then onto Inverness.

Unless elec uses the existing infrastructure I doubt it has the legs to stand on its own. Its big appeal is cost.
With tax breaks cheap elec deals and no duty.

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That can't work for many reasons
- The existing network is not in a much better shape than our roads, and is already quite loaded
- Your solution cannot accommodate JIT requirements
- Stations are rightfully in town centres, which would be disastrous as a starting point for further deliveries, and creating new stations in the middle of nowhere with the necessary unloading equipment would be a total money pit
- Creating new railroads is prohibitively expensive (see HS2), especially as you would still need the power lines.
- The logistics of loading a train to reach break even are far more complicated than for a HGV, thus reducing flexibility to nil.
There are many other reasons but to make things short, the motorways are already there, they are demonstrating every day that while it can be congested sometimes it fulfils our needs both for personal and commercial transport, all that's needed are power lines and a large parking facility or 2 in each county.

Thirty years and more ago the rail network did all the above, including trains of containers, other bulk deliveries & JIT supplies. What happened?

Privatisation. The road lobby. Railtrack didn't want slower freight trains cluttering up its toll (rail)roads.

(I worked in railway operations from 1975 until 2009.)

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Originally Posted by jwg663

Thirty years and more ago the rail network did all the above, including trains of containers, other bulk deliveries & JIT supplies. What happened?

Privatisation. The road lobby. Railtrack didn't want slower freight trains cluttering up its toll (rail)roads.

(I worked in railway operations from 1975 until 2009.)

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What also happened is the demand for goods exploded. The internet meant that anyone could order anything anytime and have it delivered in hardly anytime. We eat everything from anywhere regardless of the season. And indeed the process of closing stations and lines because they were not profitable continued (it had started long before you joined I believe (long before Beeching).
In fact what prompted the creation of these lines is also what lead to their downfall: Independent companies wanting to get their goods from A to B created the lines; later they realised passengers were a profitable commodity... and when a line was not profitable anymore it was simply closed.
I think the war (WW2) signed the end of private ownership, and many lines and stations were closed because there was no money left.
In parallel the road network blossomed... The rest is history.

On the continent they are trying to revive sleepers as an alternative to passengers taking the car. When I was a lad you could load your car on a train in Gare d'Austerlitz (Paris), go to your sleeper wagon and wake up in the Alps, ready to drive to your final destination.

The development of motorways essentially killed it, although some are still trying to make it work. (Austria I believe)

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Originally Posted by jwg663

Thirty years and more ago the rail network did all the above, including trains of containers, other bulk deliveries & JIT supplies. What happened?

Privatisation. The road lobby. Railtrack didn't want slower freight trains cluttering up its toll (rail)roads.

(I worked in railway operations from 1975 until 2009.)

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Also times have moved on, in our place most that was manufactured yesterday would have been delivered today nationwide from Darlington or trunked last night to one of our other delivery sites for delivery. The planning for that is bad enough never mind having to store it, ship it to a rail head, collect it from there then tranship it onto delivery vehicles.




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Originally Posted by Saint-Just

That can't work for many reasons
- The existing network is not in a much better shape than our roads, and is already quite loaded
- Your solution cannot accommodate JIT requirements
- Stations are rightfully in town centres, which would be disastrous as a starting point for further deliveries, and creating new stations in the middle of nowhere with the necessary unloading equipment would be a total money pit
- Creating new railroads is prohibitively expensive (see HS2), especially as you would still need the power lines.
- The logistics of loading a train to reach break even are far more complicated than for a HGV, thus reducing flexibility to nil.
There are many other reasons but to make things short, the motorways are already there, they are demonstrating every day that while it can be congested sometimes it fulfils our needs both for personal and commercial transport, all that's needed are power lines and a large parking facility or 2 in each county.

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lol… it was not a solution just a stupid suggestion like electifying thousands of miles of road with overhead lines hence the HS3 suggestion. Sweden who have already started I think aim for a few thousand miles of carriageway by 2040 or something. I can’t see what we can do can’t build a railway can’t fill pot holes can’t get a ferry even near to budget but of course we can electrify the roads…we can’t even make sure all kids go to school not hungry on a daily basis. By 2040 you may be better backing all fiat currencies to fail and brics countries to be leading the way. Nah stuck in a 4-5 year cycle of corruption and collapse. Maybe if infosys gets into the civil engineering game..

Even trams in city centres are a complete pain in the ass heaven forbid a power outage

Comercial vehicles will be a huge problem we used to drive to Poland Romania for work even 25 years ago the amount of trucks on the road was enormous.

Britain will follow the eu or america. I have my doubts that if the eu and America decide hydrogen is the way any manufacturer will care what Britain does.


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Must admit the assertion we´ll be electrifying the roads, ALL that´s needed is some powerlines and a coupla large parking facility per county and the jobs a goodún, did strike me as a tad optimistic, in light of recent events, on previous- current, hoho, form. Yup get Infosys and those Tata wallahs on it.

sotto voce, Spain´s corrupt as... but got a cracking, fast, expansive rail network...they don´t like it up mr mainwaring. chortle.

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Originally Posted by Saint-Just

On the continent they are trying to revive sleepers as an alternative to passengers taking the car. When I was a lad you could load your car on a train in Gare d'Austerlitz (Paris), go to your sleeper wagon and wake up in the Alps, ready to drive to your final destination.

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Most of the sleeper trains have closed over the last 10 years, I used to use them a lot so I’m happy to hear that they are being revived.

Man in Seat 61 shows 2 operating, Dusseldorf to Verona and Villach to Erdine. Do you know of any others that are being brought back into service?


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Originally Posted by berin

Most of the sleeper trains have closed over the last 10 years, I used to use them a lot so I’m happy to hear that they are being revived.

Man in Seat 61 shows 2 operating, Dusseldorf to Verona and Villach to Erdine. Do you know of any others that are being brought back into service?

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I think this might help: https://www.thetrainline.com/trains/europe/night-trains