The joy of servicing

Sent my old 6309-729a off to Olivier at Onatelier for a long overdue service. He did a wonderful job. It was dry as a bone and with all sorts of issues and he did it all inside his original estimate, right down to the worn out nature of the main plate barrel hole which needed redoing and replacing with donor parts. Like having a new watch.
A good service is money so well spent. Can't recommend him enough. Have ordered a 22mm from Watch Geckho as a reward for it.
[IMG]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...912fbba8_h.jpgIMG_20200720_090613 by Oscar India, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...04bdc658_h.jpgIMG_20200716_152311 by Oscar India, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...3dd0e78c_h.jpgIMG_20200716_151904 by Oscar India, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...01374536_h.jpgIMG_20200716_121223 by Oscar India, on Flickr[/IMG]

How long have you had the watch and how long did the service take?

Looks great.

I have a Seiko SKX007 which will be 6 years old and it will be due a service soon.

Nice work, but it’s a bit more than ‘servicing’, what we’re looking at here is restoration and I think owners of old watches sometimes don’t appreciate the difference.

A mechanical watch should be serviced after several years, this is a process whereby the movement is stripped and cleaned to remove dirt and dried up lubricant. If this is carried out every few years wear and tear will be minimised, as with all mechanical items lubrication is key.

In reality, most old watches have been used until they stop working several times, they’ve then been cleaned and lubricated but some parts are already suffering wear. The process is repeated until the watch stops again, by this time its probably let water in a few times too and its generally in poor shape. At some point its likely to have been ‘serviced’ by someone not exactly skilled in the art, who will cut corners to get the watch running again as cheaply as possible. Finally, these old watches end up in the hands of enthusiasts, or they’re inherited, and they get sent to someone competent for a ‘service’ when in reality they need serious restoration using new or good second- hand parts.

I’ve spent time today trying to track down an Omega part 6153, that’s the bush that fits in the barrel bridge of a cal 613 hand-wound movement. I’ve struggled because parts supply via wholesalers is restricted by Swatch Group, I have one of these left and tomorrow I’ll have none because I’ll have to use it without sourcing a replacement. This watch has had a very hard life with little sign of maintenance, at some point its been through the hands of a monkey who stuck the dial down with adhesive because a dial securing screw was missing. The watch needs several new parts and screws, basically the movement’s a mess but its fixable. My parts stock will dwindle slightly and hopefully I can replace the bits I’ve fitted in order to fix the next one, but that’s getting progressively harder.

The biggest single problem that jeopardises the repair trade and the viability of buying/owning older mechanical watches is parts availability. Everyone accepts that parts become obsolete and haven't been produced for years, but its hugely frustrating when the parts exist and the watch companies won’t supply them. That’s the reality.

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Originally Posted by prexelor

How long have you had the watch and how long did the service take?

Looks great.

I have a Seiko SKX007 which will be 6 years old and it will be due a service soon.

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I bought it in 2015 I think, for AUD $115. Knew it needed attention but it worked, but kind of like a car works on 75% of its cylinders. This is a transformation in timekeeping, power reserve and all very reasonably done including a few non service items.

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Originally Posted by walkerwek1958

Nice work, but it’s a bit more than ‘servicing’, what we’re looking at here is restoration and I think owners of old watches sometimes don’t appreciate the difference.
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I think you're about right. Here's what Olivier had to say:

"It is probably fair to say that the movement was very tired, so it really benefited from the service. Lubricant was completely dried up, with a lot of contaminants present in the movement. The main issue I had to deal with was to do with the mainplate barrel hole, which had worn out of centre. As a result the barrel was very tilted, and rubbing on the bridge (resulting in power loss and poor performance). In order to address this I fitted a bushing in the mainplate barrel hole, to bring it back to "true centre" and reduce sideshake, I also replaced the barrel with a part from a donor movement in good condition. No additional cost for this work: if I am honest I am expecting to do this more often than not on this particular movement, I know it to be a weak point from experience - and I like to keep to my estimates!
"The performance of the watch is much improved after the service, with a good steady trace on the timegrapher it should prove a good and reliable timekeeper. I also tested the watch on a cyclotest, to ensure that it self winds as it should. And finally, I can confirm that the watch is water resistant, after replacing the caseback and crown gasket it passed a pressure test at 2Bar. However I would always advise caution around water with vintage watches, especially this one. As I think I explained the crystal gasket is specific to this model, and no longer available, so the crystal gasket is most likely original to the watch."

Olli’s a hero for doing this, I don’t have the equipment or skills to make a centre bush to effect this repair, that may change in the future if I decide to stay in the game.........crossroads time for me soon!

Enjoy the watch.

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Originally Posted by walkerwek1958

Olli’s a hero for doing this, I don’t have the equipment or skills to make a centre bush to effect this repair, that may change in the future if I decide to stay in the game.........crossroads time for me soon!

Enjoy the watch.

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He really is. A gent and a proper pro too.

Thank you OP.

I have had a look at the website and the linked Seiko modification site. I think i would opt for a movement upgrade. If a movement is upgraded, does that mean a service is then not required?

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Originally Posted by prexelor

Thank you OP.

I have had a look at the website and the linked Seiko modification site. I think i would opt for a movement upgrade. If a movement is upgraded, does that mean a service is then not required?

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What do you mean by a movement upgrade? If this involves fitting a replacement movement, possibly a new NH36 or similar, if the new movement comes out of original packaging it should be OK to fit. However, my experience with Seiko replacement movements doesn`t fill me with confidence, I`ve ended up stripping them down and re-oiling because I wasn`t happy with the way they ran.

The term 'service' seems to mean all things to all men, whether I sort out the original movement or fit a replacement the buck stops firmly with me, if there are problems they are my problems, I don`t want to see a watch again once it leaves me; on that basis I would probably play safe and spent an extra couple of hours stripping, cleaning and re-oiling a replacement Seiko movement. Folks might find this strange, but that's the way I see it, I`ve had new movements that gave poor amplitude owing to lubrication problems, it happens and the only way to be certain its right is to do it yourself.

^ Thank you.

On the website it states:

The NH36 movement upgrade can be carried out on the SXK007 or SKX009 (7S26-0020) watches as detailed below. It consists of the replacement of the original 7S26 movement with a “modern” Hattori NH36 (or Seiko Calibre 4R36), which has a hack and wind facility.

From this perspective, I wondered if a movement is swapped, there is no requirement for a service.

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Originally Posted by walkerwek1958

Olli’s a hero for doing this, I don’t have the equipment or skills to make a centre bush to effect this repair, that may change in the future if I decide to stay in the game.........crossroads time for me soon!

Enjoy the watch.

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Apologies if you've already looked, but you should check the usual suppliers and see if they have any jewels that are suitable.

The Seiko 6xxx series are notorious for wearing out the barrel arbour holes with around 40% of the ones I see needing a repair. Fortunately there's a chap in Australia who's had jewels custom made and he sells them on Ebay.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/293342995009

I was working on the Omega this morning and the obvious thought struck me, why not fit a jewel instead! I have a Seitz jeweling tool and a few spare 601 movements so I could try this.

Here’s where my very limited formal training catches up with me, I’m OK fitting the correct parts
( when available) but less comfortable with the true watchmaking skills needed to make modifications. Definitely worth my while upskilling in this area, I’ve replaced broken/chipped jewels several times but never swapped a bush for a jewel.

On the Omega 601 the barrel bridge centre wheel bush should be interchangeable with the jewel from the 565, the centre wheel’s interchangeable so the internal diameter of the jewel and bush is the same. I feel a personal development project coming on, old dog needs to learn a couple of new tricks!

That looks like a beautiful job.

The trouble I have with Seiko servicing is that it seems to cost not far short of buying a replacement which to be fair is Seiko's outlook too. :distress:

How much does a service run to on these movements?

Sent from my SM-N976B using TZ-UK mobile app

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Originally Posted by Timetotalk

How much does a service run to on these movements?

Sent from my SM-N976B using TZ-UK mobile app

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I paid £204 for a full service, clean, lube and a couple of gaskets (he threw in the donor parts for the barrel for free), time test, pressure test, wind test and shipping. It was very worth it.
[IMG]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...077ee4f4_h.jpgScreenshot 2020-07-22 at 17.38.03 by Oscar India, on Flickr[/IMG]

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Originally Posted by walkerwek1958

Olli’s a hero for doing this, I don’t have the equipment or skills to make a centre bush to effect this repair

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I believe that Olli won all sorts of awards from the BHI when he did his training, so I imagine that his skills are at the high end of the watch repairing/servicing/restoring spectrum.

I've always been extremely happy with any work he has done for me.

Not remotely surprised to hear that. Totally professional, honest, friendly and excellent service from him.

Olli ran his own Seiko with replacement (hacking) new Seiko movement for a few years before offering the transplant as a new service as well as servicing and restoration. I'd be very happy for him to work on any of my watches, and he's serviced quite a few of them. If anyone has any questions about what Olli does why not send him a PM (.olli.) or check out his contact page: https://onatelier.co.uk/contact

I’ve got a 007, and a 011 that both need servicing.

I was intending to get them serviced, but reading that website I’m more and more tempted to get sapphire crystals and a movement swap for them both.

Blimey!

I just paid £65 for a service on an old Seiko Champion of mine which included:

New set lever spring

New crystal

NOS Seiko signed crown

Back seal.

And I thought that was dear!

Don't feel so bad now. :wink-new:

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Originally Posted by Neil.C

Blimey!

I just paid £65 for a service on an old Seiko Champion of mine which included:

New set lever spring

New crystal

NOS Seiko signed crown

Back seal.

And I thought that was dear!

Don't feel so bad now. :wink-new:

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Just - as in 2001?

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Originally Posted by Neil.C

Blimey!

I just paid £65 for a service on an old Seiko Champion of mine which included:

New set lever spring

New crystal

NOS Seiko signed crown

Back seal.

And I thought that was dear!

Don't feel so bad now. :wink-new:

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Same here, i wont be switching watchmaker any time soon

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Originally Posted by Neil.C

Blimey!

I just paid £65 for a service on an old Seiko Champion of mine which included:

New set lever spring

New crystal

NOS Seiko signed crown

Back seal.

And I thought that was dear!

Don't feel so bad now. :wink-new:

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Good price that if done properly.

Difficult to see how a competent watchmaker can afford to disassemble a watch movement, clean and inspect the parts, re-assemble it and then regulate it for just £65, especially if that price includes additional parts.

What is a Hattori movement? Is it another name for a genuine Seiko movement?

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Originally Posted by number2

Just - as in 2001?

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Two weeks ago.

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Originally Posted by PhilipK

Difficult to see how a competent watchmaker can afford to disassemble a watch movement, clean and inspect the parts, re-assemble it and then regulate it for just £65, especially if that price includes additional parts.

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How much actual labour is involved to a skilled person in a simple manual wind watch (like my Champion) if all goes according to plan? - An hour?

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Originally Posted by Murdoc

What is a Hattori movement? Is it another name for a genuine Seiko movement?

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Yes. From what I understand it's a Seiko movement that hacks and can be hand wound, Olli fits a new movement as part of his modification (new stem and a different crown, from memory).

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Originally Posted by Foxy100

Yes. From what I understand it's a Seiko movement that hacks and can be hand wound, Olli fits a new movement as part of his modification (new stem and a different crown, from memory).

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Thanks. I’ll do some research into the differences between the 4R36 and 7S26 (apart from the hacking and winding).

It might be nice to keep the originality with my watches and get the original movements serviced rather than replaced.

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Originally Posted by Neil.C

How much actual labour is involved to a skilled person in a simple manual wind watch (like my Champion) if all goes according to plan? - An hour?

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I would think it highly unlikely if said person is doing it correctly and to a high standard.

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Originally Posted by Dynam0humm

Good price that if done properly.

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+1, sounds cheap.

Even for someone who works quickly there’s 3-4 hrs work in servicing a straightforward watch. Once you get tied up in sorting faults out that increases. On old watches there will always be problems somewhere, usually hairspring- related.

If anyone can properly service even the simplest watch in 1 hr I’d love to meet him!

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Originally Posted by walkerwek1958

Even for someone who works quickly there’s 3-4 hrs work in servicing a straightforward watch.

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Let's call it 4 hours (to include the admin of receiving the watch, tracking it in the workshop, issuing quotes (not all of which will be taken up), answering questions from the owner, sending it back, etc. And let's assume that every single watch is straightforward and that the watchmaker never has to spend any time trying to solve obscure issues, or searching for (or even making their own!) rare parts.

At £65, that's only £16.25 an hour. A McDonald's employee can earn £10 an hour, and they don't have to do all the training, provide all the equipment, or have the business overheads of a watchmaker.

I just don't see how a proper, strip-down-the-mechanism, service can be profitably carried out for £65.

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Originally Posted by PhilipK

blah blah blah
I just don't see how a proper, strip-down-the-mechanism, service can be profitably carried out for £65

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Maybe some people are simply less greedy than you, maybe some people do the interesting stuff for less margin, who knows how they do it. Whatever, your inability to perceive something does nothing to preclude its existence.

Six years ago I had a battered Seiko 7000-8000, bought from ebay for £24, serviced for around £40, by a reputable firm with a reputation going back decades. It's been on my wrist all week this week, and is still giving exactly the same accuracy as it was 6 years ago (the same accuracy I used to get from a brand new 2824: 10s/d)

4 or 5 years ago another watchmaker with an excellent reputation revived my long-running 1940s A Schild movement for £45. That too is still running without problem.

I don't know how people who are sufficiently smitten with the world of watches to spend years on watch forums can bring themselves to slander honest watchmakers simply for offering solid work for attractive prices. There's much foolishness on this and all watch forums, but this is more than that, it's straightforwardly disgusting.

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Originally Posted by PhilipK

I believe that Olli won all sorts of awards from the BHI when he did his training, so I imagine that his skills are at the high end of the watch repairing/servicing/restoring spectrum.

I've always been extremely happy with any work he has done for me.

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Originally Posted by Foxy100

Olli ran his own Seiko with replacement (hacking) new Seiko movement for a few years before offering the transplant as a new service as well as servicing and restoration. I'd be very happy for him to work on any of my watches, and he's serviced quite a few of them. If anyone has any questions about what Olli does why not send him a PM (.olli.) or check out his contact page: https://onatelier.co.uk/contact

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As above. Olli did a fantastic job on my Seiko 6138 Panda recently.

I know who I want to service my watches.

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Originally Posted by PhilipK

I just don't see how a proper, strip-down-the-mechanism, service can be profitably carried out for £65.

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It can’t. And it certainly can’t for £40.

You get what you pay for.

Imo of course.

How to cut corners, save yourself time, and make more money:

1. Don’t fully strip the movement for cleaning.

In most cases you can get away with this, but its not possible to inspect thoroughly and be sure everything's OK. The time savings are very significant. Taken to extremes, the level of dismantling is minimal; take the balance out, oil the pivot jewels, oil the pallet jewels and escape wheel, put a spot of oil on the train wheel pivots. Watch runs better and the jobs only taken 30 minutes!

2. Don’t replace anything unless the part is broken.

If a fixed price for service is quoted, rather than charge parts separately, its more profitable to do this. Chances are the watch will keep running well enough during the warranty period, the owner won’t see the reduced amplitude and poor positional agreement because he doesn’t have a timegrapher.

3. Use second- hand parts instead of new.

If a part has to be replaced, use a second- hand one from a scrap movement, avoid spending more than you have to.

4. Use cheap lubricants

5. Don’t use epilame on the escape wheel teeth, pallet stones and balance endstones. Epilame (Fixadrop) costs £100/bottle, it prevents oil spreading away from where its applied and its use is specified on all modern movements. Its good practice to say the least.

6. Don’t change cleaning fluids often. At £40/ US gallon its expensive stuff!

I could go on. In the past all these practices happened, the guy who used to work on mine many years ago was guilty of a few, I found that out when I worked on stuff he’d serviced. He was cheap but ge certainly wasn’t thorough.

Its unfair to say anyone who works for a low price must be cutting corners, and it doesn’t always follow tgat paying a higher price gets better standards of work. There’s a lot of trust involved.

Sometimes second- hand parts have to be used, but the price should reflect that and the owner should be made aware.

Final part of the post service and refurb experience; new strap. 22mm Winstone MKII (Hunter) in Reddish Brown by Geckota
Basically like having a new watch now.
[IMG]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...cc5f6284_b.jpgScreenshot 2020-07-24 at 15.24.53 by Oscar India, on Flickr[/IMG]

That looks good!