CWC Divers, issued v civilian

I've recently acquired a CWC RN Diver, that has absolutely delighted me, and become pretty much welded to my wrist since it arrived. I've started looking at other variants such as the SBS, but couldn't help but notice the very substantial premium on earlier issed examples. Many of these are going to be over 20 years old, a bit scuffed with fading tritium lume. I know some issued watches of more recent manufacture hit eBay a couple of years back, but with concerns about title due to them being pilfered from stores.

I've been trying to get my head around the issued premium and desirability. Clearly collectors love them, and are prepared to pay for one of a smaller pool of watches. I'm sure being issued allows a story to be told, SBS commandos taking on our enemies with guile, a few 9mm rounds and their trusty dive watch. The reality is in many cases probably closer to ended up stores with other gear, some of which went into service, some heroic, some not so. Its not really a Rolex Milsub situation, where the military watches were quite different to the civilian ones they were derived from. I hate to mention Rolex on this forum, but it bears some resemblance to the 15-20% premium on those due to the presence of a piece of paper or plastic card, which is a nonsense, but it is the market.

I like the idea of an SBS, pristine with working lume. If in another life I had been in the forces and had a watch issued to me that I had worn for years I would have an emotional attachment to an object that was part of my life experiences.

I think all the variants are fine watches, but at the moment I'm not seeing the need to chase something neo-vintage and issued. Is there an attraction that I have missed?

Dave

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This will be an interesting thread, and some far more knowledgeable people will be along shortly. I tend to agree with you. I think CWC make solid, dependable watches with genuine heritage. I have a RN Diver and an SBS, neither of them issued and both bought second hand from this very forum. But personally I can’t see why someone would want to pay thousands more, for the same watch, just because it was ‘issued’. When as you quite rightly point out, most will never have been near a clandestine mission, and spent there life sat on a shelf. Most military guys I know would, if given an SBS, think it’s an old fashioned lump of metal and continue to wear their Garmins and Suunto’s.
I can completely understand why people may collect different variations, years etc and also why a watch with a genuine story behind it may demand a premium but I can’t help thinking we may romanticise on what ‘issued’ actually means.
Everything I have said is just my opinion, and everyone is free to attach whatever value they want to an issued watch. This watch collecting lark is a hobby so each to their own.


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I woke up one day and decided I wanted a CWC Diver. I had long admired them but had always been hunting other watches.

A nearly new, matte cased RN Diver popped up in SC at what I thought was a very reasonable price so I went for it. I didn’t really know much about all of the different references of the RN/SBS divers and thought this watch would be a great way to dip my toe in the water for not much outlay.


Pretty much as soon as I put the watch on my wrist, I knew I wanted a “vintage” issued version. I loved the nearly new one but I am a vintage guy at heart, I love the watches with nice patina, I don’t care one bit if the lume works or not, so long as it’s a pleasing( to my eye ) colour etc.

So, I started looking for an issued version and like you couldn’t quite get my head around some of the prices being asked. I don’t mind paying a bit over the odds for a watch I really want but the prices didn’t sit well with me.

I bid on a few on e bay but missed out as they went higher than my max bid, I made a few offers for watches I knew people were selling on here and IG but ultimately I couldn’t spend the money being asked.


So, I bought an 83 reissue at less than half the price of the issued ones, trying to convince myself it was going to be enough. When it arrived, it’s an absolutely lovely watch but again, I knew I wouldn’t be satisfied until I got an issued one.


So, I sold the 83 and kept looking for an issued one. One thing you quickly notice is the issued ones don’t exactly fly off the shelf when they are £1200 upwards… so, I bided my time a little, watching a few that had been hanging around for sale, hoping the sellers would reduce the prices to something I felt was more reasonable.

I made a few more offers and thankfully one was accepted on a watch I thought was very cool.


During the conversations with the sellers, some had multiple watches for sale and you are correct, different years can mean less watches were issued than the year previous and although the watches are next to identical, the prices vary, sometimes dramatically.

I can understand the huge prices being asked for the very first references 83s etc but don’t quite understand why a 95 is more expensive than a 97 or vice versa.

If BMW sold identical M3s year on year but tried to charge customers more for a 2021 car over a 2022 based purely on the fact they made less cars in 2021 folk would just laugh.


One thing I would say in defence of the higher prices is, it’s generally proper military collectors that decide these prices and they try hard to justify them. I kind of understand as they want a watch from every single year and for the years where less watches were made, the pool of available watches is smaller so sellers ask higher prices.


In the end everyone is different and we all have different budgets too. I was happy paying what I paid for my 97 issued version but I was at a watch meet during the week where a guy openly admitted he had zero clue why these watches cost what they do.

Anyways, as we all know well enough, watches can be a funny old game.

PS, I would love an 2000s, issued SBS but I’m simply not prepared to pay the asking prices.



https://i.ibb.co/RpRBZGm/6-CCCD1-D8-...40-F886-E1.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/sj5yY0B/926-A0-B32-...4769302-C0.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/WHZcTSb/5381037-E-3...-CB44-E574.jpg

There are a number of things at play here that influence the desirability and there for price.

Until the late 1990s / early 2000s you could not buy a CWC from Silvermans, they only sold them straight to the MOD (and BBC) so prior to a given year they are all ‘issued’ watches - yes some may have sat around in stores or on the wrist of the QM, rather than on the wrist of the bloke on the embassy balcony but they are a true issued military watch. Earlier watches command a bit of a premium for this reason.

The MOD did not need thousands of watches every year so some years are rarer than others E.g. the 1980 automatic dive watch probably numbered less than 100 examples made, there are more 1980 reissues on wrists than the original. There are far more Milsubs out there

The world of truly dedicated CWC collectors is very small, less than 10 people world wide (I would guess and I would not include myself in it this), the majority of these guys also collect the ephemera that goes with the watch including stories etc, this can push the price up and some dealers think it’s the watch driving these prices, it’s not.

I guess some people do like the image and daring do that the CWC represents, other realise they are a very well made watch and if you are of a collecting bent they offer the perfect collecting opportunity - look at our very own Ken and his former CWC navigator collection. Different years, services, numbers etc. collectors always want the one they don’t have.

Interesting article, exactly what I like about this forum.

The high number of CWCs in the Friday posts recently have got me looking at them with interest. But as someone new to the brand, I'd be getting in at the lower end, cost wise.

Sent through the ether by diddling with radio waves

https://cwcaddict.com/rn-diver

May be of interesting read for some.

Some interesting thoughts in this thread (for those that like mil watches!).

I'm new to this and don't really see myself as a collector as sadly my budget is not that strong so I can't ever see my self owning the same model watch from each year issued.

I started off with a CWC G10, purchased new from Silvermans. On receiving it I didn't initially understand why they were so popular so I sold it. But once sold the enthusiasm of this forum made me want an issued one, so my thoughts turned to maybe sourcing an issued one or possibly a fatboy. But like the OP I baulked at the 'issued price premium' so I gave up and bought a G10 Sapphire - now my daily wear.

I then wanted a CWC divers to go with my G10 and like @sish101, I started out at the lower end with a second hand, non issued quartz RN Diver to test the water. But, as nice as they are I wanted an issued auto but again couldn't get my head around the prices. I prefer the fatter minute hand so managed to get an '83 reissue quartz. I really like it and whilst it's not issued I think I'll stop there and enjoy it as the 'issued' watches are too rich in price to rest easy with me.

I was considering an 1980 reissue auto but again .....£££'s. Just my thoughts and TBH I do slightly envy you chaps with your issued collections...........!

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Originally Posted by Slevin Kelevra

https://i.ibb.co/WHZcTSb/5381037-E-3...-CB44-E574.jpg

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That does look fantastic. I can understand why people hunt these down.

I’m not blind to the charms of older / issued but looking at eBay, the premium on issued is the thick end of 200%, maybe £1400 for a watch that would be £550 new, and £400 used.

Context is potentially important. If it was my issued watch, that would matter.

If I bought the watch in the story below, the watch has a lot of history and context.

https://cwcaddict.com/f/jasons-war-w...ry=Watch+Story

I can see why collectors might value that package of watch and it’s back-story. The eBay ones are all context free, and the premium is too hard for me to swallow.

Edit: While driving home my thoughts turned to the Bremont MB1, which to get you need to have been ejected from a plane (!) or have fairly deep £10000+ pockets. I wouldn’t ever buy one, it’s someone else’s story. Maybe that has some similarities to issued watches. Maybe

Whatever year or issue status, the CWC Divers are terrific watches.

Dave


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Id love a CWC Navigator too but if you think the Divers are overpriced......

I know that certain issued military watches are rare things indeed & highly sought after. By comparison, how vanishingly rare are the CWC chronographs built by CWC & supplied to the BBC?

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Originally Posted by Speedy2254

I know that certain issued military watches are rare things indeed & highly sought after. By comparison, how vanishingly rare are the CWC chronographs built by CWC & supplied to the BBC?

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Very! And they command a price to match.
I have seen maybe half a dozen examples

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Originally Posted by Slevin Kelevra

Id love a CWC Navigator too but if you think the Divers are overpriced......

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I've had my 1981 CWC Navigator for around 37 years, since being issued with it in the RN, when I was a Navigator. Used it at sea for navigation in small and large warships, and for astro-navigation on a yacht delivery trip across the South China Sea. Lots of personal history, but about the only time it gets a wearing now is at a Trafalgar Night dinner...

That makes the value vs the usage hard to reconcile; in some ways I'd rather put the value into a watch I'd wear regularly. OTOH...

Yeah, im not sure I'd keep a watch I never wear.

Great provenence, Im sure a Military Collector would snap your watch up.

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Originally Posted by Sinnlover

Very! And they command a price to match.
I have seen maybe half a dozen examples

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+1 to this.. I’ve had mine about 6-7years now and thought it was expensive back then. Some of the prices now are astronomical

https://i.postimg.cc/sfB8Dkd7/740-C7...-E763-E5-C.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/sftLBTs8/6-E6-E...-DDF37-AEF.jpg

..and don’t get me started on Navigators. Again 6-7yrs ago I paid about £300 for my ‘81.

https://i.postimg.cc/nMb7hsgS/4-A0-A...DF88-DD4-C.jpg

Apologies but, why were they given to the BBC?

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Originally Posted by Eddiex

Apologies but, why were they given to the BBC?

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They were given to corespondents to help time pieces to camera
Quite common for use by war correspondents apparently.

The editors also used CWC pocket chronos for timing filming

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Originally Posted by Sinnlover

They were given to corespondents to help time pieces to camera
Quite common for use by war correspondents apparently.

The editors also used CWC pocket chronos for timing filming

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Interesting - Thanks!

I’m a G10 chap and I have to say, the prices are going through the roof. It’s the one you don’t have that keeps you searching. No doubt the same for the diver’s watches.
The holy grail is the none lume Navigator as used on Nuclear submarines. I missed a 1981 none lume fat nav in terrible external condition recently. Dial and hands looked OK and it was a runner. A service with Olivier would have sorted it out. I put in offers and they were rejected with no counter offer. Very poor info from the seller and no description. You had to know what it was, I could not believe the seller made no reference to the rarity, just called it a British army watch. It was filthy dirty.
I eventually found out what he would accept, raced home on a journey taking 35 mins and it was sold to someone else in the meantime.
I felt gutted as I should have paid the price there and then and not wasted more time.
In the cold light of day with my sensible head on, why was I prepared to pay over the top for something that was dirty and bashed? Simple answer, it was really rare and it would have been the pinnacle of my collection.

So if anyone has a none lume Navigator for sale from any year, I’d be interested!!

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Originally Posted by helidoc

If in another life I had been in the forces and had a watch issued to me that I had worn for years I would have an emotional attachment to an object that was part of my life experiences.


Sent from my Google Pixelbook Go using Tapatalk

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I had a few issue chronograph’s during the time I was in, they were just bits of issue kit and certainly not as special as lots on here seem to think that were. Unless I desperately had to wear my issue one I’d wear a Seiko that I bought in the Naafi that’s still going strong in my bedside cabinet.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...c07194bb89.jpg

How to spot a saddo! His hoodie match’s his watch!

Some people get obsessed with issued.
https://imgur.com/EMz182j

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Originally Posted by watchlovr

Some people get obsessed with issued.
https://imgur.com/EMz182j

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Ice collection there

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Originally Posted by watchlovr

Some people get obsessed with issued.
https://imgur.com/EMz182j

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A lot of old tat Colin ….. ha ha

I have worked on a military storage and repair depot for 37 years.
I joined the on site fire service in 1992. Necessary Inspections, maintenance and tests granted us an access all areas status.
This was the time that I became aware of the military disposal system. One of the buildings that we frequented had a Radiac storage location. It was on wandering round this room that my attention was brought to an 18 inch square, 2 foot tall wooden crate that was full to within an inch of the top of divers watches and G10’s awaiting disposal.
Easily 2000 watches, probably more.
The whole box would have been sold as a single lot at auction for possibly a few thousand pounds.
To the likes of Anchor supplies in Nottingham or somewhere similar.

At this time the first gulf war wasn’t long over and the tide of special forces books led by Mr McNabb’s account of the war were beginning to circulate. Consequently, all us younger types on station were SF barmy and we all wanted a black special forces watch.
There was a sympathetic store man who worked in this building who let us rummage through the box to see what we could find.
It makes me a little bit light headed to remember that “they” were all in the box.
I wasn’t knowledgeable at the time about the differences of models and manufacturers but besides probably about 70% of the contents being G10’s there were many, many CWC S/S divers, At least three different types of Precista’s, i now know that one of the types would have been the ‘82.
I wouldn’t have noticed the subtle differences between an 88 and a 89 and I thought the 93 looked odd with its asymmetrical case and tall crown bezel.
There were a few Omega’s and the store man said there was even a couple of old Rolex’s in there somewhere.
It all meant nothing to me.
All I wanted was a black special forces watch.
We scooped out handfuls of watches looking for black ones.
One was still ticking but the glass was cracked. One had a badly gouged case. The crown was missing from another. A couple looked in fairly good nick but weren’t ticking.

Matey said that the ones that weren’t working might just need a new battery as this was the main reason they were returned to stores
(Can you believe it)
He said take a few away and see if you can get them working by scavenging batteries from the ticking ones.
We took about a dozen back to the station and set about putting them in a vice and trying to open the case with a screwdriver and hammer.
(I ache at the memory)
We managed to get the backs off without causing too many scratches to the backs and eventually had four working watches in pretty good looking condition.
We took back the donor ones and that was me happy as a sand boy.
My watch was a 1992, I don’t remember the serial number.
It is now sadly long gone.
I later acquired an almost perfect condition one with the serial 001/00.
It is also long gone.
I must add that at the time, a “gate pass” could be issued to legally take possession of ex stores that were awaiting disposal. You signed a declaration that you would not sell it on.
The nostalgia of it all has made me a little sad.

@John Wall

Great story and recollections - I guess it's like so many things of 'years gone by'. For me it's old cars, which at the time I owned them, was pleased to get rid of but the way the classic car market has gone I wish still owned!

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Originally Posted by John Wall

There were a few Omega’s and the store man said there was even a couple of old Rolex’s in there somewhere.

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:hypnotysed:

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Originally Posted by Eddiex

@John Wall

Great story and recollections…

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Thanks Eddie,
If only we knew then what we…etc etc.

Remember that at the time, these watches were unobtainable to Joe Public.
There was a wonderful mystique about them.

…and getting back to Dave’s original question.
I don’t think you’re missing the attraction.
You like what you like and that’s that.
At the time of my story there was no alternative to buy a new unblemished civvi version
and the sneaky-beakyness thoroughly added to the watches desirability.
But I’ve also got non issued and steakpie variants in my collection.
If we were all the same it would be a boring hobby😉

I wonder if in ten or 15 years time the current issued prices will look ridiculously cheap

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Originally Posted by John Wall

I wonder if in ten or 15 years time the current issued prices will look ridiculously cheap

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I think they probably will do and I think your previous comment about liking what you like is spot on!

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Originally Posted by John Wall

I wonder if in ten or 15 years time the current issued prices will look ridiculously cheap

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That’s the way it works.
‘92 Precista’s now are “Milsub money” from the 90’s

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Originally Posted by John Wall

I have worked on a military storage and repair depot for 37 years.

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What a great story....Hindsight really is a wonderful thing.

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Originally Posted by watchlovr

That’s the way it works.
‘92 Precista’s now are “Milsub money” from the 90’s

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No doubt a typo - you'll have meant '82.

I assume the reason they only produced them for a couple of years was simply that CWC were able to undercut them in pricing contracts for the MoD, though somebody may know better.

In my limited opinion…
The Precista watches were a budget divers watch (that just about met the defstan) cost was definitely a factor in getting these adopted by the MOD.
My 89 is no where near as good quality as the standard CWC. Everything about the CWCs make them a better watch, finishing, printing, bezel action. There is no way you could move the bezel with wet or gloved hands. It’s just not possible.
The original Precista’s are a parts watch, they are a very rare and good looking parts watch but pretty basic in the hand
The only exception was the 92
These are robust, chunky and rather good looking. But still made to a bottom price.
I don’t think (but do hope) that these will reach the same price as the CWC autos or watches that came before them.

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Originally Posted by Sinnlover

In my limited opinion…
The Precista watches were a budget divers watch (that just about met the defstan) cost was definitely a factor in getting these adopted by the MOD.
My 89 is no where near as good quality as the standard CWC. Everything about the CWCs make them a better watch, finishing, printing, bezel action. There is no way you could move the bezel with wet or gloved hands. It’s just not possible.
The original Precista’s are a parts watch, they are a very rare and good looking parts watch but pretty basic in the hand
The only exception was the 92
These are robust, chunky and rather good looking. But still made to a bottom price.
I don’t think (but do hope) that these will reach the same price as the CWC autos or watches that came before them.

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That's fascinating, many thanks.

I'm currently very much focused on G10s and had rather forgotten that this thread is about the divers - hence my reference to their being produced for only two years, one of which was '82!

If I'm allowed to digress from the diver's watches, I've never owned a Precista G10 and wonder whether there's any quality difference between that and the CWC? I'd perhaps wrongly assumed not.

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Originally Posted by TF23

That's fascinating, many thanks.

I'm currently very much focused on G10s and had rather forgotten that this thread is about the divers - hence my reference to their being produced for only two years, one of which was '82!

If I'm allowed to digress from the diver's watches, I've never owned a Precista G10 and wonder whether there's any quality difference between that and the CWC? I'd perhaps wrongly assumed not.

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I think the quality of the G10s is very similar. The earlier fatter case does give some heft and a feeling of solidity

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Originally Posted by Sinnlover

I think the quality of the G10s is very similar. The earlier fatter case does give some heft and a feeling of solidity

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Thanks again - all very useful. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by TF23

Thanks again - all very useful. :thumbsup:

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Having owned both an 82 G10 from CWC and Precista I would say they are identical (aside from the dial!)

I picked this one up from Silvermans vault recently a prototype Royal Navy clearance divers watch quartz, I guess it should have been issued but luckily for me it wasn’t very similar to the 50 automatic ones that were sold to the clearance divers edit I guess those weren’t issued either
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...70966d3e_k.jpg

Picture of the automatic version
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...4af832f7_h.jpg

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Originally Posted by Balance wheel

I picked this one up from Silvermans vault recently a prototype Royal Navy clearance divers watch quartz, I guess it should have been issued but luckily for me it wasn’t very similar to the 50 automatic ones that were sold to the clearance divers edit I guess those weren’t issued either
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...70966d3e_k.jpg

Picture of the automatic version
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...4af832f7_h.jpg

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These are quite smart. Subtler than some.

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Originally Posted by Balance wheel

I picked this one up from Silvermans vault recently a prototype Royal Navy clearance divers watch quartz, I guess it should have been issued but luckily for me it wasn’t very similar to the 50 automatic ones that were sold to the clearance divers edit I guess those weren’t issued either


Picture of the automatic version ]

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Nice watch for sure. The Silvermans vault watches are always interesting.

My CWC/Military watch journey continues!

From originally baulking at the prices being asked for an issued RN Diver to actually buying what was a very nice example from 1997 for reasonable money.

My next move was to consolidate some of my collection to fund a Seiko 6105 and unfortunately the 97 RN Diver was sold as part of that exercise.

Out,

https://i.ibb.co/B41npJV/IMG-1459.jpg


In,

https://i.ibb.co/T8mrmYX/IMG-1648.jpg

But, I had always fancied a Precista 88 or 89 but again didn’t like the prices being asked.

In the end, Jason at Sweeping Hand had a very nice 89 for again, a reasonable price so the proverbial trigger was pulled. I know Sinnlover has said the Precistas are lesser quality than the CWC and I actually have to agree to an extent but I just really like the design of the Precista, plus the Patina on this example is really quite good.

It wears much smaller than the CWC Divers but I have tiny wrists so it’s cool on me.

https://i.ibb.co/60W1SkL/IMG-1651.jpg

After enjoying the Precista for a while I was missing the CWC so decided to start looking for another one.

I had always fancied an SBS but again, the prices are a bit mad, especially for the older years. So, I traded my good mate an Everest plus some cash for an 87 reissue. And very nice it was too…

https://i.ibb.co/kyC2VFL/fdd3dae7-b8...5b3d6854c7.jpg

But, much like when I had the 83 reissue, I just knew I wanted an “proper” issued watch.

So, the reissue was sold and this appeared after a long story…and a bit of a deal.

2001 SBS with what I think is lovely Patina and in very nice condition.

https://i.ibb.co/7ysVv6G/IMG-1684.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/h7vN98D/IMG-1683.jpg



I had the pleasure of meeting a good friend at the weekend who I’m sure some of you will know, to have a look at his extensive collection of British Military watches, what a sight!

I took too many pictures to post on here but you get the jist….

https://i.ibb.co/3pFgpYs/IMG-1691.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/VL3v8B4/IMG-1687.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/tJ686wS/2e235e3b-4c...f58f536d39.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/B4ZfDnH/IMG-1698.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/5r2s49j/IMG-4173.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/sPdvvqC/IMG-1694.jpg

The watch circled in the pic is the Reissue and I was impressed. It didn’t look out of place mixed in with all the vintage pieces.

They do get rather addictive don’t they?
The Precista’s is quite a bit smaller than the CWC. It was a bit of a shock when I bought my 89.
I am trying to avoid falling down the rabbit hole of the fab fours. (And Heuer Bunds)

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Originally Posted by Sinnlover

They do get rather addictive don’t they?
The Precista’s is quite a bit smaller than the CWC. It was a bit of a shock when I bought my 89.
I am trying to avoid falling down the rabbit hole of the fab fours. (And Heuer Bunds)

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Yes, you are correct !

I think that is my buying done for a wee while at least!

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Originally Posted by Slevin Kelevra

Yes, you are correct !

I think that is my buying done for a wee while at least!

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I think I’ve heard this before?
Nice wee hour talking watches.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slevin Kelevra

My CWC/Military watch journey continues!

From originally baulking at the prices being asked for an issued RN Diver to actually buying what was a very nice example from 1997 for reasonable money.

My next move was to consolidate some of my collection to fund a Seiko 6105 and unfortunately the 97 RN Diver was sold as part of that exercise.

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Good post with some great pictures!

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Originally Posted by watchlovr

I think I’ve heard this before?
Nice wee hour talking watches.

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I'll never say never!

- - - Updated - - -

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Originally Posted by Eddiex

Good post with some great pictures!

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Cheers, its cool to see so many issued watches in the metal. Normally only see them on forums.