PSA Dyson returns to PC World

This is not a product review of the Dyson HP04 that we bought from PC World:

https://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/home-a...89257-pdt.html

Some may like it, some may not. We didn't, so we took it back a few days after purchase and this is the point of this post. PC World would not accept it or make a refund without agreement from Dyson.

This left us standing at the Refunds desk for an hour with a pleasant PC World employee listening to Vivaldi's 'Four Season' in the Dyson telephone queue. When the Dyson person finally answered, the return & refund was not automatic and we had to argue a case for it.

I don't know if it's legal under consumer law for Dyson to refuse a return, but they certainly tried hard.

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Originally Posted by Tinker

This is not a product review of the Dyson HP04 that we bought from PC World:

https://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/home-a...89257-pdt.html

Some may like it, some may not. We didn't, so we took it back a few days after purchase and this is the point of this post. PC World would not accept it or make a refund without agreement from Dyson.

This left us standing at the Refunds desk for an hour with a pleasant PC World employee listening to Vivaldi's 'Four Season' in the Dyson telephone queue. When the Dyson person finally answered, the return & refund was not automatic and we had to argue a case for it.

I don't know if it's legal under consumer law for Dyson to refuse a return, but they certainly tried hard.

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This is why by and large I always buy online to avoid this sort of problem...

Legally they don’t have to accept return. (Unless stated at time of sale, on back of receipt etc.)

I had something similar with a Samsung TV. It was on special offer, checked online and Curry’s Brent Cross had it in stock so off we trot to buy it. Buying it should have raised alarm bells as it took an eternity as they couldn’t find it even though they supposedly had a couple in stock.

Over the weekend me and my 2 boys excitedly got mounted on the wall and then realised that a vital component box was missing. Everything plugs into this box, so we packed it all up and took it back but they didn’t have another in stock and this is when all the fun started.

They had to ring Samsung to authorise the return and refund. We must have hung around for 2+ hours and in amongst this a guys comes over and states there’s been a delivery and that there might be a set in the container, so we waited but there wasn’t.

No amount of talking would spur any of these guys into action and in the end it took 3 people, 2 phone calls to Samsung and 2+ hours before we got a refund.

After having a troubles with Curry’s returns in store in the past, I vowed never to use them again. I now buy from the likes of Richer Sounds and Superfi. Even Argos has better customer care.

With smaller appliances never had trouble exchanging. Kettles always fail before guarantee up (ideally choose 3 but at least 2 year) and replaced with a new one. Haven't bought one for years.

I'm confused. As Kingstepper says, absent any additional rights offered by Currys, you would have no right to return something because you had changed your mind. (I think if you click and collect you do get the same protection as you would with an online and delivered purchase.)

I'm not a lawyer but I can't see how you have any relationship with Dyson for Currys to consult them about. You bought from Currys and you either have or haven't got rights against them.

Probably less than a year before they went bust, I had a run in with the local Comet about a kettle. I had a receipt which explicitly said they would be responsible for repair/replacement and they still refused, advising me to contact the manufacturer.

I would never ever buy anything costing more than £20 from Currys - and only then if I had absolutely no other option. It would be no surprise to see them go the same way as Comet.

Most kettles these days are made in the PRC.

The contract is between you and the seller ie Currys. Dyson as the manufacturer don’t really have anything to do with this relationship. However as others have said, if you merely don’t like what you’ve bought you’re at the mercy of the seller as to whether you take it back or not.

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Originally Posted by kungfupanda

The contract is between you and the seller ie Currys. Dyson as the manufacturer don’t really have anything to do with this relationship. However as others have said, if you merely don’t like what you’ve bought you’re at the mercy of the seller as to whether you take it back or not.

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In this case the retailer checking that Dyson will take it back from them seems fair.

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Originally Posted by Kingstepper

In this case the retailer checking that Dyson will take it back from them seems fair.

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Not really. Other things being equal, that is about them and their commercial relationship with Dyson. The OP has a relationship with Currys; he has no relationship with Dyson (unless there's some other details we are not aware of).

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Originally Posted by Tinker

I don't know if it's legal under consumer law for Dyson to refuse a return, but they certainly tried hard.

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On what grounds were you trying to return it? It sounds as if you had used it & it wasn't faulty so why should Currys take back a used item?

I HATE Currys PC World with an absolute passion and will only purchase from them as a last resort or if a deal is too good to pass up, even then I'd consider paying more and going elsewhere.

Usually I'll make sure it's covered by CCR as I've been had over by them far too many times in the past and, in my experience, the people they employ and their particular brand of customer service is appalling.

Years ago I used to work for an arm of the DSG.
The returns were never screened properly and so several companies would not take returns from the group, some even stopped supplying the group for a while so the products were bought wholesale from a competitor.
Sounds like it's still going on.

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

This is how the high street - or, to be more precise, brick and mortar retail because they have left the high street - is committing seppuku and they don't even realise it.
Online selling already have the advantage of not having to pay for stores with display and storage facilities, if on top of price online can use DSR as a USP those shops are dead.

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Originally Posted by David_D

Not really. Other things being equal, that is about them and their commercial relationship with Dyson. The OP has a relationship with Currys; he has no relationship with Dyson (unless there's some other details we are not aware of).

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Yes, agree OP has contract with Currys but they will only take it back if Dyson will then take it from them.

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Originally Posted by Saint-Just

This is how the high street - or, to be more precise, brick and mortar retail because they have left the high street - is committing seppuku and they don't even realise it.
Online selling already have the advantage of not having to pay for stores with display and storage facilities, if on top of price online can use DSR as a USP those shops are dead.

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But from the sound of it the OP bought the cleaner, used it, didn't like it & took it back expecting a refund even though it wasn't faulty: surely you don't think that's reasonable? I wouldn't expect to buy three pack of Y fronts from M&S, wear a pair, decide I didn't like them & then return them.

What's killing the high street (& online shopping) is this attitude amonst the buying public that they should have the right to buy an item, use it, render it unsaleable & then get their money back. It's become commonplace for online clothes shoppers to wear items & then return them expecting a full refund. Why is that behaviour an acceptable part of society?

Customers’ expectations have moved on because of DSR.
So yes, it’s a different ball game. And yes, if I was at the helm of a small shop I would be worried.
If I was heading one of those multiples, however, I would apply the same rules in store as I enforce on the company’s website.

And if I was a manufacturer I would take that into account in the contract I sign with the retailers.

I am not saying it’s good or bad. It’s an evolution and I see it in examples like this thread.

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Originally Posted by Allthingsblue

Costco have the best returns policy in my opinion.

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I’ll agree with this, best time to buy a Jura coffee machine is after they go on promo at Costco, the Jura outlet has loads of returns from the promos, I bought one 60% of list that hadn’t even been turned on, when I rang the outlet they said people send them back with notes saying “Bigger than expected”.

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Originally Posted by Tinker

This is not a product review of the Dyson HP04 that we bought from PC World:

https://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/home-a...89257-pdt.html

Some may like it, some may not. We didn't, so we took it back a few days after purchase and this is the point of this post. PC World would not accept it or make a refund without agreement from Dyson.

This left us standing at the Refunds desk for an hour with a pleasant PC World employee listening to Vivaldi's 'Four Season' in the Dyson telephone queue. When the Dyson person finally answered, the return & refund was not automatic and we had to argue a case for it.

I don't know if it's legal under consumer law for Dyson to refuse a return, but they certainly tried hard.

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You can view; CRA 2015 @ http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...ntents/enacted

The purpose of the Act was to rewrite current legislation and put all consumer rights in one place. It’s very easy to digest and explains in simple language your rights.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

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Originally Posted by justin44

I’ll agree with this, best time to buy a Jura coffee machine is after they go on promo at Costco, the Jura outlet has loads of returns from the promos, I bought one 60% of list that hadn’t even been turned on, when I rang the outlet they said people send them back with notes saying “Bigger than expected”.

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I returned a return when it made cold coffee - Jura tried to tell me it was because that is how coffee is drank in Germany... :dontknow:

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Originally Posted by Mr Pointy

What's killing the high street (& online shopping) is this attitude amonst the buying public that they should have the right to buy an item, use it, render it unsaleable & then get their money back. It's become commonplace for online clothes shoppers to wear items & then return them expecting a full refund. Why is that behaviour an acceptable part of society?

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Perhaps because, for online purchases, that's (other than "render it unsaleable") the law?

The rationale is that a consumer purchasing online doesn't have the same opportunity to examine the goods that a physical purchase permits. Doubtless there are some people who abuse that legislation, but it's also down to the retailer to (1) build it in to their business model (for some areas, such a female fashion, returns can run at >50%), (2) put some safeguards in place (some clothes - and watches - are sold with a tag which permits trying on, but which renders the item accepted if removed), or (3) make a virtue of necessity (e.g. Amazon actively encourage customers to order clothes in multiple sizes and offer free returns on those which do not fit).

I’ve always found Dyson’s customer service outstanding having had two hoovers replaced for even more expensive models and if ever something goes wrong, they are quick to send out an engineer or part(s).

I think it’s great customer service that they accepted the return on the basis that you didn’t like the item.

On their website, Dyson state a 35 day money back guarantee. It’s therefore reasonable to expect them to honour it.

I was originally going to side against the OP because of the frivolous reasons for returns, but if Dyson have a stated policy then they should honour it. Where it becomes unclear is whether this policy is exclusive to the website, but it does state that Dyson need to be contacted as opposed to discretion being with the retailer.

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Originally Posted by Alasdairmc

On their website, Dyson state a 35 day money back guarantee. It’s therefore reasonable to expect them to honour it.

I was originally going to side against the OP because of the frivolous reasons for returns, but if Dyson have a stated policy then they should honour it. Where it becomes unclear is whether this policy is exclusive to the website, but it does state that Dyson need to be contacted as opposed to discretion being with the retailer.

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That policy only applies if you buy directly from Dyson on their own website. The OP bought from Currys. The contract is between him and Currys.

Curry’s have the retail market pretty much to themselves and do as they please, the service and product knowledge is appealing, John Lewis try hard but it’s a scale thing,

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Originally Posted by adrianw

Curry’s have the retail market pretty much to themselves and do as they please, the service and product knowledge is appealing, John Lewis try hard but it’s a scale thing,

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Not to me!

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Originally Posted by adrianw

Curry’s have the retail market pretty much to themselves and do as they please, the service and product knowledge is appealing, John Lewis try hard but it’s a scale thing,

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John Lewis has scaled up - Waitrose and Partners.

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Originally Posted by Mr Pointy

What's killing the high street (& online shopping) is this attitude amonst the buying public that they should have the right to buy an item, use it, render it unsaleable & then get their money back.

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To be blunt, too bad. As Saint-Just observes, consumers' attitudes have moved on. The law provides for exactly this (for the most part) in distance transactions and high street vendors are living in the past if they think they don't need to provide the same level of service.

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Originally Posted by Mr Pointy

It's become commonplace for online clothes shoppers to wear items & then return them expecting a full refund. Why is that behaviour an acceptable part of society?

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For two key reasons:
(1) Because it is the law.
(2) Above that, because it is good business!

If people buy loads of stuff and send back what they don't like, it actively encourages them to buy more. That's a good thing all round.

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Originally Posted by Tinker

This is not a product review of the Dyson HP04 that we bought from PC World:

https://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/home-a...89257-pdt.html

Some may like it, some may not. We didn't, so we took it back a few days after purchase and this is the point of this post. PC World would not accept it or make a refund without agreement from Dyson.

This left us standing at the Refunds desk for an hour with a pleasant PC World employee listening to Vivaldi's 'Four Season' in the Dyson telephone queue. When the Dyson person finally answered, the return & refund was not automatic and we had to argue a case for it.

I don't know if it's legal under consumer law for Dyson to refuse a return, but they certainly tried hard.

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Since, having bought it in a shop, you had afaics no right to a refund unless it was faulty or misdescribed, it seems to me that they were doing you a favour by considering a refund at all on the basis that you just didn't like it.

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Originally Posted by IAmATeaf

I had something similar with a Samsung TV. It was on special offer, checked online and Curry’s Brent Cross had it in stock so off we trot to buy it. Buying it should have raised alarm bells as it took an eternity as they couldn’t find it even though they supposedly had a couple in stock.

Over the weekend me and my 2 boys excitedly got mounted on the wall and then realised that a vital component box was missing. Everything plugs into this box, so we packed it all up and took it back but they didn’t have another in stock and this is when all the fun started.

They had to ring Samsung to authorise the return and refund. We must have hung around for 2+ hours and in amongst this a guys comes over and states there’s been a delivery and that there might be a set in the container, so we waited but there wasn’t.

No amount of talking would spur any of these guys into action and in the end it took 3 people, 2 phone calls to Samsung and 2+ hours before we got a refund.

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Unlike with the OP's experience, in this case Currys should obviously have given you a refund immediately. What did they think they were doing calling Samsung in these circumstances? Very dodgy behaviour by Currys.

So if I buy a Breitling Aerospace from an AD, wear it for a week then I should be able to return it for a full refund?

Only if the watch is £5k instead of current £3.2k RRP to ensure retailer has enough margin to offset the losses they make from all the returners.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

This doesn't seem to be about having a right to return it. It sounds like PC World wanted to refund the OP, but for some reason, cannot without Dysons approval.

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Originally Posted by ryanb741

So if I buy a Breitling Aerospace from an AD, wear it for a week then I should be able to return it for a full refund?

Only if the watch is £5k instead of current £3.2k RRP to ensure retailer has enough margin to offset the losses they make from all the returners.

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A good question and here are a few responses/observations.

(1) Veblen/luxury goods may (or may not) legitimately deserve a different regulatory model to non-luxury items in this context. Yes, I know this adds a new bureaucratic complication in terms of deciding what is or is not 'luxury' but it's an idea worth considering. But see below.

(2) What of those luxury watch companies or luxury watch ADs who already sell online? JLC, for example. Omega watches are also legitimately sold online by both ADs and Omega themselves. They all seem to cope ok, so perhaps veblen/luxury goods don't need a different regulatory regime afterall.

(3) All sales, yea even holy veblen ones, are moving online. Really. It's a matter of time. Convenience is the ultimate winner in today's market. The fact that some manufacturers like JLC and Omega already do it proves that it can be coped with even for luxury goods.

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Originally Posted by hafle

This doesn't seem to be about having a right to return it. It sounds like PC World wanted to refund the OP, but for some reason, cannot without Dysons approval.

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That is in fact about a right to return (or expectation thereof). The OP thought that he would have an automatic right to return the non-faulty shop-bought item simply because he didn't like it and was surprised when he discovered that he had no such right, and was upset that PC World would only refund if Dyson (in turn) agreed to refund PC World.

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Originally Posted by markrlondon

That is in fact about a right to return (or expectation thereof). The OP thought that he would have an automatic right to return the non-faulty shop-bought item simply because he didn't like it and was surprised when he discovered that he had no such right, and was upset that PC World would only refund if Dyson (in turn) agreed to refund PC World.

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Sounds like he was surprised that Dyson were involved in the situation. Hence pondering the legality of Dyson refusing to allow pc world to accept the return, given they are not a party to the contract. I'm not reading anything suggesting he felt he had an automatic right. He clearly states that the point of the post is about Dysons involvement.

Nobody seems to have even attempted to discuss the opint of the post. The 3rd party involvement.

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Originally Posted by hafle

Sounds like he was surprised that Dyson were involved in the situation. Hence pondering the legality of Dyson refusing to allow pc world to accept the return, given they are not a party to the contract.

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Once again, if the OP was in fact "pondering the legality of Dyson refusing to allow pc world to accept the return" then this would still mean that the OP's query was predicated on the incorrect presumption of a legal right to return the item. I.e. The only reason to question Dyson's involvement would be if the OP had presumed that he would have an automatic right to return the item merely because he didn't like (as he would have had if he had bought at a distance).

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Originally Posted by hafle

I'm not reading anything suggesting he felt he had an automatic right.

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It is logically the existence of the entire message. Unless the OP thought that he had an automatic right to return the item simply because he didn't like it then there would have been no point in him posting the message (and subsequently mentioning and querying Dyson's involvement).

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Originally Posted by hafle

He clearly states that the point of the post is about Dysons involvement.

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Yes, indeed. But he was only in a logical position to query Dyson's involvement because he earlier assumed wrongly that he had a right to return the item to the shop on the basis that he didn't like it. His key error was to make this incorrect assumption and this has been rightly addressed. Dyson's involvement doesn't actually matter in this context. In fact PC World were doing him a favour by contacting Dyson and seeing if they would accept a refund and return.

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Originally Posted by hafle

Nobody seems to have even attempted to discuss the opint of the post. The 3rd party involvement.

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As above, the third party involvement is neither here nor there. It was actually good customer service by PC World to contact Dyson in this case, considering that they had no regulatory/statutory reason to issue a refund.

All that said, if you want to see the involvement of Dyson being explicitly addressed, here you go: Dyson was consulted seemingly because PC World were not willing to pay out a refund where they were not legally required to do so, unless they gained Dyson's backing to refund them in turn.

(All of the above assumes that PC World had not provided a contractual offer of an automatic refund on demand to make their in-shop service offering equivalent to distance sales).

I’ll go back to my earlier point regarding Dyson’s 35 day money back guarantee. While it only applies to purchases on their website, it could be argued that this policy might be for Dyson as a manufacturer and not Dyson as a retailer. Perhaps some clarity is needed there to avoid unrealistic expectations from the Currys-going purchaser.

OP, if you want to try and buy in future, then buy online. You have no legal rights to a refund if you buy in person. So, despite being made to stand for an hour in a queue and plead your case, I would say you had a positive outcome (and well done to Currys for achieving this for you).

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Originally Posted by jukeboxs

OP, if you want to try and buy in future, then buy online. You have no legal rights to a refund if you buy in person. So, despite being made to stand for an hour in a queue and plead your case, I would say you had a positive outcome (and well done to Currys for achieving this for you).

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The problem is that if you buy from Currys online, they don't need to call Dyson (or you can tell them to do one if they claim they do). Assume 2 customers at the desk, bought the same product, one online the other one in the shop, and both want to return it
1) how does the shop justifies treating the customers differently? [from a commercial perspective, not a legal one]
2) how would the manufacturer know if the product was bought in store or online?

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Originally Posted by markrlondon

That is in fact about a right to return (or expectation thereof). The OP thought that he would have an automatic right to return the non-faulty shop-bought item simply because he didn't like it and was surprised when he discovered that he had no such right, and was upset that PC World would only refund if Dyson (in turn) agreed to refund PC World.

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This is exactly it



Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

I worded my original post carefully in order to focus on its title, "Dyson returns to PC World". I omitted other details. Here, in the re-phrased post, are some:

1 We bought a Dyson XXX from PC World.
2 We registered the guarantee with the in-store Dyson representative.
3 On using it at home, we found it noisy & inefficient, which we did not like.
4 We believed these were not individual faults, but design weaknesses.
5 We took it back.
6 PC World, who were pleasant throughout, said they could not accept it or give a refund without Dyson's approval.
7 PC World phoned Dyson, who resisted agreeing to a return.
8 We argued with Dyson, via the PC World employee, that the product was inadequate.
9 Dyson finally agreed to a return & to a refund in 48 hours.
10 When we buy other such goods, especially Dyson, we shall first clarify with the retailer our rights of return & refund.

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Originally Posted by Tinker

I worded my original post carefully in order to focus on its title, "Dyson returns to PC World". I omitted other details. Here, in the re-phrased post, are some:

1 We bought a Dyson XXX from PC World.
2 We registered the guarantee with the in-store Dyson representative.
3 On using it at home, we found it noisy & inefficient, which we did not like.
4 We believed these were not individual faults, but design weaknesses.
5 We took it back.
6 PC World, who were pleasant throughout, said they could not accept it or give a refund without Dyson's approval.
7 PC World phoned Dyson, who resisted agreeing to a return.
8 We argued with Dyson, via the PC World employee, that the product was inadequate.
9 Dyson finally agreed to a return & to a refund in 48 hours.
10 When we buy other such goods, especially Dyson, we shall first clarify with the retailer our rights of return & refund.

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You bought it. Used it and decided you didn't like it. Took it back and got a refund in 48 hours. Can't see the problem really, apart from you had to wait a while and Vivaldi is pretty boring. :dontknow:

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Originally Posted by Saint-Just

The problem is that if you buy from Currys online, they don't need to call Dyson (or you can tell them to do one if they claim they do). Assume 2 customers at the desk, bought the same product, one online the other one in the shop, and both want to return it
1) how does the shop justifies treating the customers differently? [from a commercial perspective, not a legal one]
2) how would the manufacturer know if the product was bought in store or online?

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im not sure that’s correct.

in scenario 1) the retailer is responsible for the online purchase refund, not Dyson. They would most likely have to call Dyson to agree the return - or sell it refurbished themselves.

2) the manufacturer wouldn’t know, and probably wouldn’t care.

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Originally Posted by Omegamanic

im not sure that’s correct.

in scenario 1) the retailer is responsible for the online purchase refund, not Dyson. They would most likely have to call Dyson to agree the return - or sell it refurbished themselves.

2) the manufacturer wouldn’t know, and probably wouldn’t care.

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Do you believe Currys is stuck with all the items bought online and returned? No: The contract they have with their suppliers deals with the returns. Basically, can Dyson afford not to be in Currys?
The answer may soon be yes, but historically it wasn't an option. So in both cases, Dyson deals with it, except that at the moment they refund no question asked if bought online, and they plead with Dyson if not.

Plus, your objection to point one doesn't deal with the situation: both customers are at the CS desk, they say yes to the one who bought online and no to the one who bought in their shop. Do you think it is commercially viable? [that was the question asked, not who was going to be responsible for the refund. I may have phrased it badly].

Is different for clothes which can be tried in store but with electrical equipment and similar, buying in store is really no different to online. Sure, the goods can be inspected but (usually) they can’t be tried working and the law should reflect this to allow returns in both cases.

Of course is ultimately the consumer who pays the cost of all this...