Two Rolex obtained from a jeweller by bank transfer, later reversed

So many people think that funds received and even cleared in a bank account cannot then be reversed. Well, they can, as another poor jeweller has just found out:

Rolex Datejust 83D662T6

and

Rolex Datejust 976941S6

are reported to have been obtained from a store in Norwich* by a lady and gent using electronic payment that apparently cleared but was subsequently reversed.

I have more details available if required.

H


* let's hope it's not the shop currently being discussed in the main forum, or these could be the unluckiest fraudsters of the week!

Haywood,

I'd be interested in finding out how they worked this Fraud- I'm in an industry that large transfers/payment are common place so would like to try and cover myself as much as possible..... I know and have had the 'stolen cheque book' supposedly electronic transfer scam tried on me but have never had a problem with transfers.

Appreciate any info you can provide.

Having recently consulted with my bank regarding accepting payment for a vehicle I was selling I was assured that there could be no reversal of the payment once it reached my account.

Thankfully it went without a hitch and there was no funny business. Alarming to hear that there can be reversal of e-payments leading to cruel loss, as appears to be the case here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob153

Haywood,

I'd be interested in finding out how they worked this Fraud- I'm in an industry that large transfers/payment are common place so would like to try and cover myself as much as possible..... I know and have had the 'stolen cheque book' supposedly electronic transfer scam tried on me but have never had a problem with transfers.

Appreciate any info you can provide.

---

If the payment was made from a hacked account (and therefore a fraudulent transaction) then the paying bank will reclaim the money back from the receiving bank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DA56

Having recently consulted with my bank regarding accepting payment for a vehicle I was selling I was assured that there could be no reversal of the payment once it reached my account.

Thankfully it went without a hitch and there was no funny business. Alarming to hear that there can be reversal of e-payments leading to cruel loss, as appears to be the case here.

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I'm selling a car on Wednesday which will be paid for by bank transfer. I'm wondering if this is limited to business bank accounts or personal too?

Dave- I'd be surprised if they would- in the early days of chaps, Bacs, faster payments etc.... I'd always call our banks corporate centre to confirm cleared funds, if it's cleared you can draw on it. Card payments are different customer claiming faulty goods, mail order fraud so a chargeback can be issued, didn't think that could happen even in the case of fraud with cleared funds transfers, retailer has to have some comeback?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave+63

If the payment was made from a hacked account (and therefore a fraudulent transaction) then the paying bank will reclaim the money back from the receiving bank.

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I vaguely remember, If a deposit is made via a stolen chq and clears, then funds are available, when it come out then the payment chain collapses. and monies repatriated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob153

Dave- I'd be surprised if they would- in the early days of chaps, Bacs, faster payments etc.... I'd always call our banks corporate centre to confirm cleared funds, if it's cleared you can draw on it. Card payments are different customer claiming faulty goods, mail order fraud so a chargeback can be issued, didn't think that could happen even in the case of fraud with cleared funds transfers, retailer has to have some comeback?

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They would Rob, it happened to me late last year.

A hacker hacked a customers’s account and transferred £9k into my account then phoned me pretending to be my customer, asking me to transfer it back (to a different account - you don’t actually see the account details of transfers in to your account, just a reference).
Having realised it was a fraud, I contacted the bank who told me to wait until the customer’s bank requested it back. When the request was made (about a month later), my account was frozen for the best part of a week until the money was removed from my account by my bank’s anti fraud team and returned to my customer’s bank.

My customer has been re-credited the money almost immediately by his bank.

So in this instance, if the watches were paid for in a similar way, I’ve no doubt that the payment would be reclaimed by the paying bank.

All the more important we all sign this. Spread the word.

https://campaigns.which.co.uk/freedom-to-pay/

There are some who will try hard to remove cash from our society. Think of their motives.

If it's a stolen cheque it will not clear, can't be drawn on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MCFastybloke

I vaguely remember, If a deposit is made via a stolen chq and clears, then funds are available, when it come out then the payment chain collapses. and monies repatriated.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob153

If it's a stolen cheque it will not clear, can't be drawn on.

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The bank will process the cheque normally until informed otherwise

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

I can see why in that instance it was recalled-

If a retailer has carried due diligence with the transfer and customer then there has to be some sort of protection- I regularly deal with transactions over 50k, scary to think someone could just cite fraud and get the money recalled.

I suppose it's the process of the transaction- If it was ordered over the phone and paid for by transfer then there is always a grey area who picks it up etc..... When dealing with large transactions I always get a copy of a driving licence or passport.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave+63

They would Rob, it happened to me late last year.

A hacker hacked a customers’s account and transferred £9k into my account then phoned me pretending to be my customer, asking me to transfer it back (to a different account - you don’t actually see the account details of transfers in to your account, just a reference).
Having realised it was a fraud, I contacted the bank who told me to wait until the customer’s bank requested it back. When the request was made (about a month later), my account was frozen for the best part of a week until the money was removed from my account by my bank’s anti fraud team and returned to my customer’s bank.

My customer has been re-credited the money almost immediately by his bank.

So in this instance, if the watches were paid for in a similar way, I’ve no doubt that the payment would be reclaimed by the paying bank.

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The question is Rob, what due diligence can you carry out to ensure that a payment you’re expecting has come from the correct account?

No details of the paying account are provided (and are flatly refused) even though the details would be there if a customer paid by cheque. It’s a serious omission which could quite easily be rectified and thus remove the type of scam I nearly fell victim to.

Having said that, it’s not just a case of the payer claiming it was a fraud; the banks would soon see that was not the case and then the payer would be the criminal.

Most transactions by far are legitimate and if a payment is made to you which you are expecting, then you can be confident that it’s legitimate. It’s unexpected payments that you should be wary of.

Unfortunately the banks do not really care- Back in the days of Bankers Drafts I used to contact the issuing bank and verify that they had issued it- As soon as they stopped verifying them you just couldn't take the risk, handing over high value goods for a piece of paper.......

I probably go over the top when due diligence wise but you can't be too careful, over the years I've probably had every scam going tried on me.

The important point is that cleared payment is not the same as irreversible payment!

Whenever we are paid electronically, we telephone the bank and do not release goods until it has confirmed that payment is both cleared AND irreversible.

The jeweller in this case, I believe, was visited in person by a couple bearing "solid identification," though it is naive to think that there is not brilliant, fake ID available to the crooks these days. Apparently the store then received payment electronically, the client returned in person to pick up the goods........before payment was recalled from the jeweller's account some days later.

My staff regularly have animated discussions with (potential) clients, their banks and others on this subject. Unfortunately there are many in the banking system itself who do not understand the difference between cleared and irreversible, many of whom will confidently tell their clients one thing, which they in turn (perhaps not unreasonably) take to be the absolute truth. On the basis of what their banking contact has told them, they expect to be able to collect goods as soon as they have made payment, which we then have to try to explain is not going to happen.

I know for a fact that payments can be recalled up to a certain point (not just the same day or any of the other myths perpetuated within the industry) and that many a less savvy business loses thousands of pounds' worth of goods through naivety on the subject.

How long before a cleared payment becomes an irreversible one then ?

Depends on the exact type of electronic payment —- FAST / BACS / CHAPS etc —- and the banks involved, it seems.

Having grappled with this as an almost daily problem, we have reconciled ourselves to the need to call for confirmation in every instance.

It is dismal in this age that a fast, transparent and guaranteed payment system is not available. Some people think we have it now. We do not.