Hypothetical car accident/insurance question

Hi folks

No accident thankfully but a situation just occurred whilst I was a passenger in my daughters (passed her test this week so new to the road) car.

We were due to turn left into a road and she was indicating left in good time. road is a 30 and she had dropped it to 2nd and slowing down ready to make the turn.

However just before the turn is a driveway/entrance to a pub (probably a max of 10m between the centre of the pub drive and the centre of the turning so very close.

Anyway out popped a car bonnet from the pub as we approached and at slow speed proceeded to pull straight out in front of my daughter and turned right. We stopped in time and all went on our way (some hand signals may have been ex changed [emoji16]).

My wife is adamant that daughter wasn't in the wrong as the guy should have known people would be indicating into the upcoming turn. However I am of the opinion that he couldn't be completely at fault as she was indicating and he could assume she was pulling into the pub.

Maybe Insurance and blame would be 50/50 but was wonderibg what others thoughts would be?

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Daughter not in the wrong. Car shouldn’t have pulled out until he saw the car start to turn left into pub car park. Indicators are useful but should not be relied upon, your daughter ultimately still had right of way as per Highway Code

The other car would be at fault, always give way to the right, and don’t assume that a indicator is a definite prelude to an action, if the left turn wasn’t being made then always give way.

Indicators are just that a suggestion of what you're doing, it is the other driver's responsibility to decipher exactly what that means before acting.

This is an example of the pub driver assuming where you were going, and assuming nearly making an “ass of me”.

It's a tricky one and I've been in a similar situation before. I think that a vehicle indication is no defence for a driver to assume that he can rely on such in order to pull out on a vehicle approaching a junction and that in an ideal world your daughter shouldn't have indicated until she was at least alongside or passed the pub entrance - but then it's not an ideal world out there.

R

Without actually seeing the location ....

If the pub car park entrance and the road turning are that close together then I would be taking extra care when leaving the car park. I don’t think it would be safe to assume (as the exiting driver) that any car indicating left would definitely be pulling in to the pub car park.
A driver in the position of your daughter would similarly have to take extra care when indicating and acknowledge the possibility that a car exiting the pub car park may do exactly that.

An experienced driver would / should have seen the left hand entrance before the junction and waited to signal until past it.

Daughter right, pub leaver wrong.

Thanks for the confirmation folks.. shook her up a bit but a good lesson nonetheless.....

Cheers...

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The general rule is never to rely on a turn signal alone.

The case law is:

Wadsworth v Gillespie (1978) - reliance on a left-turn signal at a T junction; decided 66/33 in favour of the driver on the major road;

probably superseded by

Davis v Swinwood (2003) - reliance on a left turn signal at a T junction; decided 100% liability on the driver pulling out from the minor road.

Always have front and rear cameras rolling,

its hard to say without seeing it properly.

Another thing, never exchange hand signals EVER
I was assaulted for that and never done it since, the Police gave a caution even though i was bleeding ( ABH )

I was always taught that indicators are just that and can only indicate a person's intentions, not guarantee the actual manoeuvre will happen.

Your daughter had right of way, but I suspect it would still have gone 50/50 though as that's how insurance works.

Your daughter did nothing wrong, however as a new driver I expect she slowed down a lot more than is normal so pub driver subconsciously presumed she was so slow she must have been turning in.

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Originally Posted by ViperStripes

Your daughter did nothing wrong, however as a new driver I expect she slowed down a lot more than is normal so pub driver subconsciously presumed she was so slow she must have been turning in.

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Good point!

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Originally Posted by Kingstepper

Good point!

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I agree. she had slowed more than I would have done. Oh well, lesson learned.... thx folks!

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I would never pull out until the car/driver indicating had actually well and truly committed to there turn which in turn makes it safe for me to pull out.

While it is 100% your daughters right of way, there is a similar junction in the town where I live and people here have learned (probably the hard way) not to indicate left until they are passing the first turning left which admittedly doesn’t give much time to indicate (pun intended) that you want to turn left.
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Originally Posted by JasonM

An experienced driver would / should have seen the left hand entrance before the junction and waited to signal until past it.

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I disagree. Her indicating was destined to cars behind her, to warn them in advanced of her intentions, not to a car that wasn’t even on the road. My understanding is that the other car pulled out as from a private driveway and as such I would be extremely surprised if he had been deemed less than 100% responsible, had there been contact.

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Originally Posted by Saint-Just

...Her indicating was destined to cars behind her, to warn them in advanced of her intention...

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Were there any cars behind? I know you can't answer that, only the OP but I've had some advanced/roadcraft training and we were told only to indicate if somebody actually needs to know.

I guess it's probably better for her to over- rather then under-indicate at this point though.

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Originally Posted by Saint-Just

I disagree. Her indicating was destined to cars behind her, to warn them in advanced of her intentions, not to a car that wasn’t even on the road. My understanding is that the other car pulled out as from a private driveway and as such I would be extremely surprised if he had been deemed less than 100% responsible, had there been contact.

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It depends on the size of the pub entrance before the junction, a pub car park entrance would be larger than a driveway, the other car must have thought she was turning into it to do what they did, if she didn’t indicate until after the entrance the car wouldn’t have pulled out. ( all supposition though)

Your daughter had right of way, that is clear. However, in the real world her indication could be ,and in fact was seen to be ambiguous. My thought process, or more properly, driving plan would be;
-I intend to take the road to the left but there is a junction before that (not a side road but there is a vehicle there waiting to exit so treat it as a junction)
-early observation behind to determine if a signal would be of benefit to a following vehicle
-I would not consider a deviation signal until I'm completely past the car exiting the pub
-if there is a vehicle behind on approach to the pub exit, early gentle braking to indicate to it that I am going to be doing something and allow the driver plenty of time to react, then signal once past the pub exit to reinforce my slowing signal.
-watch the driver exiting the pub like a hawk (impact factor; has he been drinking?) especially if he has not looked directly at my car. If I'm really concerned he isn't looking for me, cover the horn and be prepared to use it if his wheels begin to turn.
-at all times observe down the road for a bail out area and be prepared to execute if the vehicle begins to exit the pub.
The key is observation and interpretation of what you see, it comes with experience (that little voice in the back of your head that tells you something isn't right) or application of advanced instruction. It's a dynamic and continual process and is challenging to maintain.
This is in no way a criticism of your daughter, she is by definition an inexperienced driver (and obviously reacted in time to avoid a collision) and as has been said, its a learning opportunity for her. Hopefully she now realises that she has learned to pass the test, and she now needs to learn how to drive.
Oh, and if there had been a collision, I bet the first words out of the other drivers mouth would no doubt have been "but you were indicating to turn into the pub".

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Originally Posted by ViperStripes

Your daughter did nothing wrong, however as a new driver I expect she slowed down a lot more than is normal so pub driver subconsciously presumed she was so slow she must have been turning in.

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Probably this but the fact is he crossed your daughter's path while she had right of way so he's in the wrong by default.

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Originally Posted by DMC102

The general rule is never to rely on a turn signal alone.

The case law is:

Wadsworth v Gillespie (1978) - reliance on a left-turn signal at a T junction; decided 66/33 in favour of the driver on the major road;

probably superseded by

Davis v Swinwood (2003) - reliance on a left turn signal at a T junction; decided 100% liability on the driver pulling out from the minor road.

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Spot on !

Wadsworth used to be the caselaw everyone had to follow, despite common sense finally prevailed in 2003, partly in response to the rise in crash for cash and fraud.

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Originally Posted by Dave O'Sullivan

Daughter right, pub leaver wrong.

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This ^^^ plus get a dashcam.

Clear the entrance before signalling in the majority of cases.

Was your daughter driving with P plates? So other drivers can hopefully be a bit more courteous. The other driver definitely at fault though.

Driver pulling across her path would be at fault. Impatient so and so.

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Originally Posted by Tatters

Was your daughter driving with P plates? So other drivers can hopefully be a bit more courteous. The other driver definitely at fault though.

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Interestingly yes and no. Her instructor advised only putting them on the rear (which we have done) because if you put them on the front, people will pull out in front of you. The irony [emoji16]

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I had a knock some years ago when a car pulled out into a dual carriageway in front of me on a very snowy evening. I braked and flashed my lights, but couldn't avoid the collision. As I had am elderly relative in my car I tasked an ambulance to attend, and thus also did the police.
The TP stated to the constable that I had flashed my lights to indicate that he should pull out, and the constable assured me thay he would include his statement on his report.
Fast forward to the insurance claim, and he had obviously taken advice in the interim and his acvount now stated that he had killed into the carriageway and was established in his lane when he then observed me flashing lights behind nd then colliding with his vehicle. My insurance asked for my comments on this account, and I merely advised them to refer to the police report.
The TPs insurance paid in full within a week.
Point of the story, always obey the rules of the road, any TP advising you to take any course of action is no defence in law. Your daughter was 100% correct.

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