2018.....and Rolex UK have just fitted a new Flat Four bezel insert to an LV for me.

Morning all,

In July 2018 I sent a 16610 LV with F61xxxx case number to Rolex UK for service, glass, bezel insert and crown.

This is how it has come back.

https://i.imgur.com/yz2oIyB.jpg

It's a "full set" example with Mark 1 dial - note the wide form of "SWISS MADE" text.

https://i.imgur.com/7YMHr79.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/cvOk9Qb.jpg

This is, without question, a Flat Four insert....but is it a new variant? Notice how the short end of the horizontal stroke "kicks up" slightly.

Is it a new service part, or is it some curious, older part at the bottom of the storage bin which has luckily been drawn off for my watch?

If it IS a service part, will they fit it only to those LVs which should have had a Flat Four insert? I cannot believe so, as this would show a level of nuanced interest in vintage / collector taste which is not normal Rolex practice. Their policy has historically been to fit the last version of a part available for a model, such as a Submariner dial with white gold surround indices replacing the dial of a 1960s 5513.

If this becomes the standard service part fitted to all 16610LVs, what effect will it have on values? One might expect the Flat Four market to be undermined, as there would suddenly be a lot more available. There would be a distinction between early Flat Four inserts and later, but subtlety like that will undermine the premium that a Flat Four currently enjoys.

Valuing a later 16610 LV such as a 2006 / Z case number example that has such an insert might be easier, as it will conspicuously not be contemporary, but appraising a full set Y- or F- case number 16610 LV with one of these inserts will be more testing.

Should it be directly equivalent to one with its original Flat Four insert? If this were a contemporary insert that had somehow been dug up by Rolex, maybe -- but if it is a 2018 service part, perhaps not.

How should one describe such a watch? I would suggest "with full disclosure," but there will be those who describe such a watch as nothing other than an "F-series LV with Flat Four insert" knowing that they cannot be faulted....and they will probably price it as if no different. I suspect that one or two of these inserts are already in circulation and have been presented without comment, implicitly as if circa 2004 parts.

There is no right answer, but if this a hitherto unknown part and for as long as it has not been seen in any volume I would suggest that a correct period LV that bears one of these inserts, sold with proper disclosure, will attract a significant premium over the same watch with a pointed four.

We've all seen how desperate demand is for this type of watch in recent times. With that clamour comes less discriminating buying, fuelled by buyers and dealers alike.

If this is indeed a new, standard service part then the premium for watches fitted with it will diminish in direct relation to recognition and volume.

Knowledge, as always, will help one buy well!

Haywood

As a complete Rolex ignoramus I have no value to add to this thread whatsoever, but your level of knowledge is just mind blowing, Haywood...

Simon

That is a lovely LV indeed!

'Normal' people will fail to see any difference - one green one for another green one. Everyone else will be where do we start with this...

Very nice watch

Back in the day this was referred to as a 'wide O' dial. Even then it attracted a premium. I was happy to pick up a brand new one in 2010 for the same price as a second hand 2004 mk1. RRP was £4070 but I got a discount of 20% from the AD, try that now!

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Originally Posted by mycroft

As a complete Rolex ignoramus I have no value to add to this thread whatsoever, but your level of knowledge is just mind blowing, Haywood...

Simon

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Thought the same, a very good read though, very detailed.

It would be ironic if the new bezel lowered prices on previous models because it was reminiscent of an older part!

The font looks thicker than the original "flat 4" insert, where the void is smaller on the service than the original, so i dont think it would be to hard to distisguish between the two.

obviously it doesn't stop unscrupulous sellers and bad pics from making it look like an original period insert


how does it look in terms of color? is it the nice lime color? or forest green

I would say that the colour is very much more of the dark, emerald or "forest" green. The right hand side in the photo seems a good reproduction of it on my screen, without the misleading "flare" effect on the left.

H

It also appears as if the 3 is angling away from the 0 at 30 to quite an extent, which looks unusual to me.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...40ef5e3424.jpg

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Originally Posted by endo

how does it look in terms of color? is it the nice lime color? or forest green

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I'm curious about the colour too - it is difficult to tell from the photos.

An interesting post Haywood (as ever). Did you simply get lucky or did Rolex know you wouldn't accept anything less?
What would have happened if you'd needed the "wide-mouthed O" dial replacing I wonder?

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Originally Posted by Relativity

I'm curious about the colour too - it is difficult to tell from the photos.

An interesting post Haywood (as ever). Did you simply get lucky or did Rolex know you wouldn't accept anything less?
What would have happened if you'd needed the "wide-mouthed O" dial replacing I wonder?

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What I might "accept" from Rolex counts for exactly nil, I imagine! I may have been lucky, or this could be nothing more than a new service part.

If the dial needed to be replaced, I would with confidence expect to get nothing more interesting than the latest version of the dial in its place.

H

I could easily dismiss the whole LV hype as absolute nonsense because to me it’s highly amusing, but clearly there are dfferences in values for the slightly different nuances.

What intrigues me is how/why these minor differences between dial font, bezel font and colour shade differences originate. Obvious answer would be two different manufacturers doing it slightly different, but surely one would expect Rolex to be more exacting on setting the specification in order to get consistency. That begs another question: do they do it deliberately to ‘engineer’ a collectors market?

It’s hard to believe Rolex are so relaxed about specifications, I’d expect no discernible difference even if two suppliers are used or if the inserts are made in batches. I find it equally hard to believe Rolex do this deliberately.

If Rolex start supplying different variants of the green insert on a random basis, with no correlation to the orginal, that’ll put the cat amongst the pigeons!

In an ideal world Rolex would have been happy to fit whatever bezel insert and handset the customer prefered on their 16610, be it green or black, and let the owner keep the originals. That would’ve kept everyone happy and the LV hype would’ve been avoided.

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Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

or this could be nothing more than a new service part.

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Would that make pointy 4's the new flat 4's?!

Definitely doesn’t look like an original part to my untrained eye.
As pointed out 30 has a different spacing and a different font used.
Think I better sell mine before values fall!!
Would be interesting to know as Haywood has pointed out weather this is a new service part for Y & F serial watches. Very strange.
Thanks for sharing Haywood

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Originally Posted by Coronet king

Definitely doesn’t look like an original part to my untrained eye.
As pointed out 30 has a different spacing and a different font used.
Think I better sell mine before values fall!!
Would be interesting to know as Haywood has pointed out weather this is a new service part for Y & F serial watches. Very strange.
Thanks for sharing Haywood

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If it was a service part just for Y and F serial numbers then that wouldn't be right as most F's aren't fat 4s
The fat/flat 4 market is what it is but this shows it up a bit for the ridiculous situation it is.

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Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Morning all,


This is, without question, a Flat Four insert....but is it a new variant? Notice how the short end of the horizontal stroke "kicks up" slightly.

Is it a new service part, or is it some curious, older part at the bottom of the storage bin which has luckily been drawn off for my watch?

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Well if it is Rolex produced part and it is the same design and construction as the original bezel then it is a genuine Rolex flat four bezel and should be described as such. Date of manufacture seems irrelevant, they are not date stamped in any way. I assume that Rolex produce parts in batches, who knows or cares what batch it was if they are identical?



Mitch

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Originally Posted by Coronet king

Definitely doesn’t look like an original part to my untrained eye.

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Well, it came directly from Rolex UK and is specified on the service invoice : "BZL ASM 16610 ST 60MIN GREE"

H

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Originally Posted by Mitch

Well if it is Rolex produced part and it is the same design and construction as the original bezel then it is a genuine Rolex flat four bezel and should be described as such. Date of manufacture seems irrelevant, they are not date stamped in any way. I assume that Rolex produce parts in batches, who knows or cares what batch it was if they are identical?



Mitch

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I think the difference for the purists is that this is not a fat 4 insert which was made for the original anniversary model.
So yes it is a Rolex fat 4 insert but should be declared a service replacement if trading.

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Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Well, it came directly from Rolex UK and is specified on the service invoice : "BZL ASM 16610 ST 60MIN GREE"

H

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Sorry meant nos part bottom of the draw bits.
Very interesting though.
Going to a Rolex event next week I’ll ask the question lol

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Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Well, it came directly from Rolex UK and is specified on the service invoice : "BZL ASM 16610 ST 60MIN GREE"

H

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I think you may have missed a D off the end of that serial no. Haywood, given the difference in what they charge between this bezel and the other colours

sooooo

it will be interesting to send in a 2006> with pointy 4 and see if they now put in a Flat '4' if thats the stock insert they are currently using

or if they are doing by swopping insert based on existing type or year.

These slight nuances in design and replacement parts goes completely over my head! Don't quite understand it,especially when it makes such a difference in price to a watch for such a minor thing which most people won't notice....

Sent from my E6653 using TZ-UK mobile app

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Originally Posted by TKH

sooooo

it will be interesting to send in a 2006> with pointy 4 and see if they now put in a Flat '4' if thats the stock insert they are currently using

or if they are doing by swopping insert based on existing type or year.

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Will let you know in 6 weeks time as I have just done that.

Do they return original bezels or not?

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Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Well, it came directly from Rolex UK and is specified on the service invoice : "BZL ASM 16610 ST 60MIN GREE"

H

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Oh Goody! I Wonder if they will tool up for 60 min inserts now :eagerness:

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Originally Posted by 7184c

Do they return original bezels or not?

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Not any more.

Compare this with the early 2000s, when I sent in a military issue Submariner whose full, 60' insert was nicely faded. They were happy to fit a replacement (they still had a small number of 60' inserts at the time) and return the original to me.

I believe that the 60' "5517 ac noir" insert was then £40 on top of the standard service cost. It is worth rather more now...let's say £15,000 for the sake of argument.

H

Blimey, did you know they would return the old bezel at the time ?

You could try and see if they'll let you know if they fitted a 315-16610-4 or a -14. The -4 has been obsolete for a long time, so if thats the case they had an old one in the back of the parts drawer. Otherwise they've redesigned the -14 without changing the art. no, which is unusual...

The font thing Is probably a consciencous decision rolex made several years ago, as pretty much all bezels went to pointy four's from flat fours. It's just that noone cares about the font on a twotone insert from a 16808, for instance.

Wonder if they’ll start reproducing period correct dials for those subs with service dials that originally had red writing :la:.

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Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Well, it came directly from Rolex UK and is specified on the service invoice : "BZL ASM 16610 ST 60MIN GREE"

H

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I'm not educated in these matters, but given your long history with Rolex, would they have given you a special/rare item knowing you're more likely to keep it than sell it?

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Originally Posted by Tony-GB

I'm not educated in these matters, but given your long history with Rolex, would they have given you a special/rare item knowing you're more likely to keep it than sell it?

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Not a chance.

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Originally Posted by JasonM

Blimey, did you know they would return the old bezel at the time ?

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On the mil sub? Yes.....or I would have fitted a 15' insert before sending it in :eagerness:

Rolex UK in the "Hudson" era was a very civilised, old-school business. If you were straight and courteous, they would oblige if they could. There are some of that helpful generation still present, but their hands are tied by policy from above.

H

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Originally Posted by stefaulkner

Wonder if they’ll start reproducing period correct dials for those subs with service dials that originally had red writing :la:.

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You can already get red service dials but they are rather hard to get hold of.

I understand it takes a fair amount of persuading and you might have to send it to Rolex Geneva.

There’s a long thread on The Rolex Forum about a chap that managed to persuade them to issue him one recently.

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Originally Posted by OliverD

You can already get red service dials but they are rather hard to get hold of.

I understand it takes a fair amount of persuading and you might have to send it to Rolex Geneva.

There’s a long thread on The Rolex Forum about a chap that managed to persuade them to issue him one recently.

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Such dials are very different from the originals, easily identified and valued very differently.

H

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Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Such dials are very different from the originals, easily identified and valued very differently.

H

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Yes indeed, but interesting nonetheless I think.

As you said above they usually just fit the latest version of the dial for that reference number and they don’t care much for the interests of collectors so those red 1680 and drsd service dials are unusual.

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Originally Posted by OliverD

Yes indeed, but interesting nonetheless I think.

As you said above they usually just fit the latest version of the dial for that reference number and they don’t care much for the interests of collectors so those red 1680 and drsd service dials are unusual.

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Oh, indeed. I have a 4m case number 1665 that would have been a DRSD but now has "SWISS" luminova service dial :-)

https://i.imgur.com/J6HSxzR.jpg

Came from a significant UK businessman.

H

Fascinating as always Haywood - thanks for taking the time to post something interesting

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Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Oh, indeed. I have a 4m case number 1665 that would have been a DRSD but now has "SWISS" luminova service dial :-)

https://i.imgur.com/J6HSxzR.jpg

Came from a significant UK businessman.

H

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Lovely watch!

Thanks for starting the thread. I look forward to seeing whether your flat 4 is a one off or the first of a new design - very interesting.

Whilst browsing my next purchase I came across this.

https://www.chrono24.co.uk/rolex/sub...-id9180998.htm

Perhaps it’s the normal green replacement then!

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Originally Posted by DMC102

It also appears as if the 3 is angling away from the 0 at 30 to quite an extent, which looks unusual to me.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...40ef5e3424.jpg

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That does look very unusual, not seen that before, unless a camera trick.

Thanks for posting HM. And the chrono24 link is also interesting, that one does not have the issue with the 30 either by the look of it.

That was my hypothesis...

You will note that the Chrono24 watch is of course much later than the example I illustrated and the Flat Four bezel is not correct, original specification for that watch. It also has a later version of the dial (note the narrow SWISS MADE text).

H

Gents, there is no "issue" with the 30, it is merely an angle distorted by the field of my lens in close-up. The numerals are very slightly angled concentrically around the centre, as normal, and the insert of course recedes from the camera the further one looks to the outer edge. The lens has simply magnified the effect. When viewed normally, the 30 is absolutely fine.

H

So mine is in for service and I have the option of a new bezel.

Does anyone know if Rolex will replace just the lume pip on bezel or inisist on a bezel replacement?

If it’s the whole bezel should I go for this and might I get a flat 4? It’s a mark 6 according to watch club article. I don’t care about value as it will never be sold so I’m minded to keep existing. The knocks and fading make it more special to me than a safe queen. After all it’s been worn pretty much daily for the past 10 years.

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Originally Posted by 7184c

So mine is in for service and I have the option of a new bezel.

Does anyone know if Rolex will replace just the lume pip on bezel or inisist on a bezel replacement?

If it’s the whole bezel should I go for this and might I get a flat 4? It’s a mark 6 according to watch club article. I don’t care about value as it will never be sold so I’m minded to keep existing. The knocks and fading make it more special to me than a safe queen. After all it’s been worn pretty much daily for the past 10 years.

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There are actually three possibilities:

- Pip only
- Full insert with pip (this is the green aluminium insert)
- Full bezel

It's hard to know what you will get at this moment. One day the "Thin Four" inserts might become more desirable. A Mark 6 dial should correctly correspond with a thin four insert, for what that's worth. You're never going to sell it, so if value considerations are pointless it comes to your preferences regarding aesthetics and originality.

H

They are an intelligent provider and this will reduce the price of models nicely thus further calming down the preowned market which is long overdue

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Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

There are actually three possibilities:

- Pip only
- Full insert with pip (this is the green aluminium insert)
- Full bezel

It's hard to know what you will get at this moment. One day the "Thin Four" inserts might become more desirable. A Mark 6 dial should correctly correspond with a thin four insert, for what that's worth. You're never going to sell it, so if value considerations are pointless it comes to your preferences regarding aesthetics and originality.

H

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Thanks. Pip only it is then.

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Originally Posted by 100thmonkey

...calming down the preowned market which is long overdue...

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Member TKH has just sent me this link, showing an unworn LV with Flat Four sold today for £27,500 (plus commission?)

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/...54/lot.18.html

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Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Member TKH has just sent me this link, showing an unworn LV with Flat Four sold today for £27,500 (plus commission?)

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/...54/lot.18.html

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Sotheby’s are achieving, what can only be described as phenomenal prices on modern and vintage. And commissions on top. It’s mental.

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Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Member TKH has just sent me this link, showing an unworn LV with Flat Four sold today for £27,500 (plus commission?)

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/...54/lot.18.html

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Im not surprised the world is full of idiots who cant help themselves at auction and love to brag about how much they spent

I suspect we are approaching the point on the inflationary curve when shrewd speculators are abandoning ship....nothing inflates for ever. And that will include vintage watches.
Those buying at the peak are always the ones to take the hit.