Dive watch perfection under £200

The Chinese San Martin brand seems to be a cut above their maninstream and in my view they have nailed it with this hommage to the Seiko 6105.

PS: images link through to larger versions

https://i.ibb.co/j5FpzNz/IMG-4862-2.jpg


https://i.ibb.co/XxHtJzr/IMG-4867-2.jpg


https://i.ibb.co/LSmXBTy/IMG-4865-2.jpg


https://i.ibb.co/nj9H6bx/IMG-4864-2.jpg


https://i.ibb.co/2KS0ZLB/IMG-4863-2.jpg

Faultess in my view. An everyman tribute to an everyman watch at a price just about everyone can afford.

• More character in the case than Seiko have managed in recent years.
• Lumed ceramic bezel with as good an action as i have found anywhere.
• Thick sapphire that really makes the dial pop.
• Chunky indicies
• Well executed handset
• Strong lume that matches; hands, bezel and dial
• No idea what sort of leather the straps is made of but it is something in enjoying more than anything else i've tried recently.
• The Seiko NH36A is running well within COSC.
• Packaging is perfect.
• Branding spot on.

That a Chinese producer can make something so appealling and sell it direct, should have every microbrand that relies on a margin over outsourced Chinese manufacturing very worried. If Seiko keep tinkering with their heritage and charging $5000 for the priviledge, rather than just taking their old and ideas and doing it better, they should be worried too. Maybe that the shark logo is appropriate in more ways than one.

Knocking off other people's designs (down to the model numbers) is not much of an art.

Sure they are cheap but it is entirely hit or miss what you get in the post or how long it will last. This brand sells under at least two other names (LJM/HIMQ) and I would not rely on them actually making them...

Faultless? It's a dive watch on a leather strap..

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Originally Posted by hafle

Faultless? It's a dive watch on a leather strap..

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Nowt wrong with leather subsea, treated right it last for decades.

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Originally Posted by Alansmithee

Knocking off other people's designs (down to the model numbers) is not much of an art.

Sure they are cheap but it is entirely hit or miss what you get in the post or how long it will last. This brand sells under at least two other names (LJM/HIMQ) and I would not rely on them actually making them...

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To be fair thats been Eddie's business model all along and like Eddie's watches there are some real updates and improvements on the original design.

I tried one of the cheaper versions and it wasn't up to this standard. Of course it is a punt and whilst there is a two year warranty, i'd not fancy exercising it.

At the end of the day it is a strong watch that looks like it will last.

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Originally Posted by hafle

Faultless? It's a dive watch on a leather strap..

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On quick release bars, they know you will need to change it and provide a springbar tool for the bars you need for a NATO.

I think the MM300 Sharkmaster is a good homage for around £200, personally though I would look for a sub £200 dive watch that isn't a homage, some good watches out there for that price..

https://www.heimdallr.watch/488-larg...300-homage.jpg

Nothing wrong with a good old Orient Mako, not a homage and available in different colours and probably well below the £200 budget. Here's my old Mark 1s.

https://i.postimg.cc/5ygg1m9P/IMG-4863.jpg

San Martin is just another Chinese mushroom brand. Here today, gone tomorrow.

How to make a Chinese mushroom brand:
1. Pick a vaguely European-sounding name. French is best. German, Italian, both good. Spanish? Well, that's different.
2. Have a flick through old Seiko and Rolex catalogues for "inspiration".
3. Pay some filthy Chinese factory to knock them up for a fiver, throw in a Seiko movement.
4. Profit.
5. Word gets out your product is crap/you don't honour warranties/you're sued for copyright infringement.
6. Bust.
7. Go back to Step 1.

Of course, you could say the same about any number of microbrands, but this one won't last.

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Originally Posted by raysablade

To be fair thats been Eddie's business model all along and like Eddie's watches there are some real updates and improvements on the original design.

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Eddie is selling direct copies of *current* watches right down to same name and model numbers? Are you sure?

What is the update or improvement to the marine master that makes it different to the seiko?

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Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner

Nothing wrong with a good old Orient Mako, not a homage and available in different colours and probably well below the £200 budget. Here's my old Mark 1s.

https://i.postimg.cc/5ygg1m9P/IMG-4863.jpg

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Cannot go wrong with a Mako - what do you make of the new Orient Star divers? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...bc8a364bb5.jpg

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Originally Posted by Alansmithee

Eddie is selling direct copies of *current* watches right down to same name and model numbers? Are you sure?

What is the update or improvement to the marine master that makes it different to the seiko?

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With regard to the “marine master” nothing as far as can see. I wouldn’t want one.

The 6105 however has been out of production for nearly half a century. That justified Eddie’s PRS-68 and applies equally well here.

Ceramic bezel, sapphire crystal and super luminova are significant advances on the original.

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Originally Posted by Papa Hotel

San Martin is just another Chinese mushroom brand. Here today, gone tomorrow.

How to make a Chinese mushroom brand:
1. Pick a vaguely European-sounding name. French is best. German, Italian, both good. Spanish? Well, that's different.
2. Have a flick through old Seiko and Rolex catalogues for "inspiration".
3. Pay some filthy Chinese factory to knock them up for a fiver, throw in a Seiko movement.
4. Profit.
5. Word gets out your product is crap/you don't honour warranties/you're sued for copyright infringement.
6. Bust.
7. Go back to Step 1.

Of course, you could say the same about any number of microbrands, but this one won't last.

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Thats all true of course but it doesn’t mean that a series of short lived brands can’t produce decent quality pieces and occasionally put together a collection of parts that gets it very right.

I’d imagine that this is a product of the same factories that are supplying respected European micro brands.

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Originally Posted by Papa Hotel

San Martin is just another Chinese mushroom brand. Here today, gone tomorrow.

How to make a Chinese mushroom brand:
1. Pick a vaguely European-sounding name. French is best. German, Italian, both good. Spanish? Well, that's different.
2. Have a flick through old Seiko and Rolex catalogues for "inspiration".
3. Pay some filthy Chinese factory to knock them up for a fiver, throw in a Seiko movement.
4. Profit.
5. Word gets out your product is crap/you don't honour warranties/you're sued for copyright infringement.
6. Bust.
7. Go back to Step 1.

Of course, you could say the same about any number of microbrands, but this one won't last.

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Still trading.

I had one ( under a different brand name )

it was nice for the price but once you are used to watches in the higher price bands then its hard to go backwards down to this generic quality that is all ok and acceptable in every area but really good in no area in particular except value

>> The Seiko NH36A is running well within COSC.

Don't want to be picky (but I'm going to be :biggrin:), but did you measure it in a multiple positions as COSC dictates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COSC) or just average it out?

I'm always impressed with the accuracy of these lowly Seiko movements, but COSC isn't simply a single number.

M

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Originally Posted by Papa Hotel

San Martin is just another Chinese mushroom brand. Here today, gone tomorrow.

How to make a Chinese mushroom brand:
1. Pick a vaguely European-sounding name. French is best. German, Italian, both good. Spanish? Well, that's different.
2. Have a flick through old Seiko and Rolex catalogues for "inspiration".
3. Pay some filthy Chinese factory to knock them up for a fiver, throw in a Seiko movement.
4. Profit.
5. Word gets out your product is crap/you don't honour warranties/you're sued for copyright infringement.
6. Bust.
7. Go back to Step 1.

Of course, you could say the same about any number of microbrands, but this one won't last.

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Can't really quibble with 1,2 and 4, but I suspect 3 is rather delusional these days in terms of the quality of the factories and on a par with the way those grubby Midlands factories felt about Japanese cars in the early 70s...

No-one is going to get sued for copyright infringement, though - It just doesn't happen in China and, as extensively documented elsewhere, you can't copyright the 'look' of a watch.

M

That is a nice San Martin. They do provide a great product even if no originality.
IMO, an Orient Mako is as far removed from perfection as possible.

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Originally Posted by snowman

Can't really quibble with 1,2 and 4, but I suspect 3 is rather delusional these days in terms of the quality of the factories and on a par with the way those grubby Midlands factories felt about Japanese cars in the early 70s...

No-one is going to get sued for copyright infringement, though - It just doesn't happen in China and, as extensively documented elsewhere, you can't copyright the 'look' of a watch.

M

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Yup, I am sure they are making hefty profits but then so are other micro brands who sell for much more. Anyone who has handled one can see it is not made for a ‘fiver’. I would take a San Martin any day over lower end Seikos.
Their biggest criticism could be that they are knock offs.

But I'm sure that you can pick up an absolutely top-notch last-for-ever Pro Diver watch from Seiko or Citizen for under £200, so I'm not sure why a Chinese hommage would be a better buy. As with many Chinese watches, you really don't know exactly what's inside the case or how well built it is in the long run.

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Originally Posted by seadog1408

Nowt wrong with leather subsea, treated right it last for decades.

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That's interesting....I've always regarded getting a Leather strap wet as a recipe for rapid deterioration! I like leather straps, but I frequently get watches wet! Please tell us the sort of care & attention needed to preserve a leather strap.

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Originally Posted by MrGrumpy

But I'm sure that you can pick up an absolutely top-notch last-for-ever Pro Diver watch from Seiko or Citizen for under £200, so I'm not sure why a Chinese hommage would be a better buy. As with many Chinese watches, you really don't know exactly what's inside the case or how well built it is in the long run.

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Used, maybe, but not a 6105, Tuna or a MM300 style one.

If all you want is a diver, what you say is reasonable, but if you want a 6105 design, say, £200 isn't going to get you anything from Seiko, or anywhere near.

New, you can't even buy a 5 Diver for £200 these days.

The jury is still out, of course, on the longevity of these Chinese watches, but I've not seen anything to suggest that you're getting poorer quality than lower-end Seikos - In fact, you're getting better materials, QC (in terms of alignment, for example) and accuracy for far less money.

What, as Rajen says, you're not getting is originality, but you can still find that for well under £300, which doesn't buy you much from Seiko these days.

Take a look, for example, at the Helm watches - Remarkable quality, regulated movements and ISO certified divers with original design for under £300.

M

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Originally Posted by RAJEN

IMO, an Orient Mako is as far removed from perfection as possible.

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I’ve found there’s a considerable difference between Orient and Orient Star watches. The former are great value but far from perfection.

:thumbsup: Orient Star watches are superb (but £500+ for a Star diver).

It's nice enough.

For not much more, you can get a Glycine Combat Sub. Currently $319 on Drop. Personally, I'd prefer that to a Chinese-made Seiko homage. And I know they're owned by Invicta these days.

I know nothing about their business practices but in fairness San Martin products are of very good quality at the price. I have the 62MAS homage, it has a Seiko movement, lovely domed sapphire, applied indices, sunburst grey dial, incredible lume and a lumed ceramic bezel too. Fit and finish is nice, bracelet is decent. Contrary to older comments below they are still trading and have made upgrades to their models based on fan feedback - for example I’ve seen their account chatting to fans in the comments section of Just One More Watch when he’s reviewed them.

When it comes to homages I’m only interested in ones to out of production vintage pieces such as the 62MAS or MilSub etc. and I’d say you get more for £200 than Seiko currently offer for £500. What you don’t get of course is original design.

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Originally Posted by Dougal

I’ve found there’s a considerable difference between Orient and Orient Star watches. The former are great value but far from perfection.

:thumbsup: Orient Star watches are superb (but £500+ for a Star diver).

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Have to agree

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Originally Posted by davidj54

I know nothing about their business practices but in fairness San Martin products are of very good quality at the price. I have the 62MAS homage, it has a Seiko movement, lovely domed sapphire, applied indices, sunburst grey dial, incredible lume and a lumed ceramic bezel too. Fit and finish is nice, bracelet is decent. Contrary to older comments below they are still trading and have made upgrades to their models based on fan feedback - for example I’ve seen their account chatting to fans in the comments section of Just One More Watch when he’s reviewed them.

When it comes to homages I’m only interested in ones to out of production vintage pieces such as the 62MAS or MilSub etc. and I’d say you get more for £200 than Seiko currently offer for £500. What you don’t get of course is original design.

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What he said

For the neg heads - If you don’t want one or haven’t tried one - why make remarks running them down..... oh sorry.... yes, because “you know better” ... sorry, of course you do, you are superior in e dry thought and deed in life.... so sorry. Jeez.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to disrespect your favourite Chinese rip-off manufacturers a year ago.

If you like them, great, be secure in that. I don't, so what?

Don’t think this really needs to turn into a ruck does it, different strokes for different folks and all that.

Unless and until Seiko starts making bronze watches, I am quite happy with my bronze "6105" clone/homage.

You don't have to go full clone, they have some nice variations on the designs that Seiko themselves don't bother doing, i.e. broader colour options and (in my view most importantly) bronze cases.

I personally don't like the 1:1 "but for the logo" clones, but they are definitely doing something right - they all seem to come with NH35/4R35 movements - and they are built a lot better than any Seiko 4R35 based diver: Sapphire crystal v.s. "hardlex" mineral and ceramic bezel inserts over aluminium. You have to spend almost a £100 + a good chunk of time modding a real Seiko to upgrade it to the same specs. The build quality is also impeccable in my experience, the 6105 homage case is much better finished than a turtle. Aside from maybe a lack of originality, they are definitely on par with NH35 equipped microbrands (and quite probably are made in the same factory as many of them) - and many of the western microbrands also rely on homages as their bread and butter.

Plus most of them are compatible with Seiko dials and hands, so are a much better value base for mods than real Seikos.

Letting other people do the hard work of engineering research and development and then just copying their work is a cheap way to do things.

Who'da thought.

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Originally Posted by bedlam

Letting other people do the hard work of engineering research and development and then just copying their work is a cheap way to do things.

Who'da thought.

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Wrist watches have been around for some time now, most watches are copying some other in one way or another, case styles, bezel types and materials, hand sets. I try to see some watches as "tribute acts", they look about the same, they work the same way, but they don't have the original groups name across the front of the drums.

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Originally Posted by MrGrumpy

But I'm sure that you can pick up an absolutely top-notch last-for-ever Pro Diver watch from Seiko or Citizen for under £200

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How does Citizen Promaster quality feel compare with other brands (e.g. Tissot divers or Steinhart Ocean)? And what does the bezel action feel like on a Citizen Promaster diver?

With the current Creationwatches PSA, the answer to the best diver for under £200 must be the SkX007 or 009

Dave


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is an SKX007 or 009 better than a Citizen Promaster Marine Automatic?

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Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner

Nothing wrong with a good old Orient Mako, not a homage and available in different colours and probably well below the £200 budget. Here's my old Mark 1s.

https://i.postimg.cc/5ygg1m9P/IMG-4863.jpg

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Indeed... and I still wear the Pepsi one you sold me mate.. and love the sunbursty dial on it.


Nice piece OP. I get the point your making.

It's not pretending to be anything else, yet for "what it is" it's a great job done.


Enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Dougal

Is an SKX007 or 009 better than a Citizen Promaster Marine Automatic?

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The SKX007 was a better watch than any similarly priced Citzen auto I have owned.

Having owned one of the so called copies or clones that some call them. I can only say how impressed I have been, for me it really has been an eye opener, what you actually get for your money and indeed the quality for that price, there will always be the nay Sayers who are biased for one reason or the other, for the money these watches are great and I see no reason why they will not last for many years.

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Originally Posted by bedlam

The SKX007 was a better watch than any similarly priced Citzen auto I have owned.

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Thanks bedlam. As I've been musing over the two, could you say in what ways the SKX007 was better than the Citizen autos you've owned? Case finishing? Bracelet rattle?

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Originally Posted by Dougal

Thanks bedlam. As I've been musing over the two, could you say in what ways the SKX007 was better than the Citizen autos you've owned? Case finishing? Bracelet rattle?

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Overall quality is a step up, though I'm a fan of the SKX case. Whilst the SKX movement isn't particularly advanced the base Citizen movement is agricultural.

Can't compare bracelets as I never use them.

Thanks!