Resolution!
Resolution!
you'll get variations across print , essentially the font is the same but during any manufacturing process you'll get days where the process gets variations due to temperature, preparation , the human element etc.
BUT more importantly , and i see this time an time again, especially since people started using iPhone cameras more and more , the slightest bit of freehand when the photo is taken , no matter how good the steady function is , you get a bit of softening of the definition and it can be very easy to jump to a conclusion , but when you get the dial in hand its clear.
Id wager good money that if i had that in my hand and a 10x loupe the 6 would be just open .....
it hasn't been touched up or anything.
it is horrible condition though!!!...that lume is rough as a badgers arse.
What a baloney thread. It was the same dial, that much is clear. Some people drew some nonsense conclusions from that and some people have some apologizing to do. They know who they are...
Hello Folks,
I will from the outset say that Ray Nicol is a pal, but at the same time, if I had a problem with dial in question I would not hesitate in dropping Ray an e-mail to let him know my concerns.
I am happy with the authenticity of the dial Ray was offering for sale on eBay (which he subsequently sold privately, and now resides in a period-correct 5513 Submariner watch).
The picture of the dial isn't remarkably detailed, but the wear and rubs are consistent with a dial which has been loose in a watchmaker's parts drawer for some considerable time.
To my eye, the dial layout and print characteristics appear to conform with the two early metres-first 5513s I have in my collection:
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...C/DSCN8127.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...C/DSCN8126.jpg
I think sharp-eyed Andyg spotted both the dial and the watch apparently being offered for sale simultaneously, and Ray was negligent in not de-listing the loose dial immediately after it sold off eBay and was no longer available.
I believe Ray's dial and that in the watchestudio 5513 are one-and-the-same; that the dial is authentic; and that the dial patina has not been enhanced or tampered with.
Must also add: I haven't trawled through eBay for a while, so can't pass comment on any other current listings (unless they have four wheels and a prancing horse badge on them!!).
Mike Wood
;-)
Ray, you don't look too good because of how you communicated. I have not suggested you were offering a fake dial or anything, but the way you were releasing the truth about yourself and your role in this in small steps only after some of the membership confronted you with it leaves a taste - completely unnecessary as far as I am concerned.
Coming out looking worst is the seller of the watch, after all they have cobbled this together just weeks ago but present it as an original from 1966....
Again, I wasn't suggesting you did anything wrong other than the way you communicated here.
I agree with this. This is the "hole" that walkerwek1958 referred to.
As Michael E said, forums can be daunting but in the modern world they are increasingly where reputations are made or lost and so it is important to always be absolutely straight and honest up front on them. Where participation is oblique or the full facts and identity are not clearly stated up front (e.g. #29 and especially #33 and #36) then people get suspicious since this kind of obfuscation can be and is used by those who really do have something to hide.
When a genuine error has been made it is much better to explain the full facts fully and clearly in one's first message.
This page on dials may be of interest to the forum :
http://www.5513mattedial.com/MetersFirst.html
The imbalanced kerning of the letters in ROLEX is an interesting feature.
Haywood M
Have to agree with Raffe. The Dial may be original and Genuine but the watch is not and in my eyes is being dishonestly sold. To me an original is as it was originally sold when new. Even if it's the correct dial it' almost certainly not the original one. On that basis alone I would not deal with the purveyor.
Yes forums can be a daunting place. I agree with the above but can see Ray's point of view for not wanting his name mentioned too.
If you sell expensive parts or watches your reputation is the most valuable thing you have whether you realise it or not, on forums things can get out of hand fast, and if you are a honest trader this can be very frustrating, I can see why Ray wanted to keep his name out of this, especially when his item was been called a fake. He did make a mistake by not been up front in the first instance but he knows forums and how things can get.
I have spoken to Ray the seller of the dial this morning, what he is most upset about is the threatening emails he said he has received about himself and his family, this I find disgusting behavior, I know for sure these people would not walk up to Ray and say the things to his face they say so freely via email, call it what you will but I do not think any right minded person would or could justify that kind of behavior. The people who send such emails are not as invisible as they think, so before they send emails they should really consider what they say in them, threatening family is on a higher level whether you mean it or not. Shameful really and just one reason why some people don't want their names publishing when they have done nothing wrong.
How would the people who send these types of emails feel if their IP address was published and then their names? not very nice I should imagine.
(this is not a threat BTW)
There are some great guys on here and tempers can get out of hand but threatening emails are a step too far IMO.
Cheers Michael
I've studies this page quite a bit HM (both in the past when looking at 5513s and recently), but still find the information conflicting! It states:
- starting from the top of the dial, the “L” in “ROLEX” should have very little if any serif on top and should be centered under the coronet. Serif is defined as small extensions at the letter’s vertical and horizontal termination points that enhance its appearance and readability.
If you then look at the image, the L has (as I understand it) quite clear serifs and is not 'centered' under the coronet (although where is the centre on an L - through the middle of the upstroke?).
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/...psk8xfkpou.jpg
All very confusing!
Perhaps "100% Original" now just means "100% Built From Genuine Parts"? In which case, what language is left for a watch solely constituted out of the parts it left the factory with?
Glad to see that the buyer of the dial is now reassured of its genuine nature, and MW has publicly given Ray the thumbs. Everyone's always wanting to know about more trustworthy dealers, right? [emoji2]
The emails though.....perhaps their authors might think it's not too late to apologise, now it's a bright new day?
If he has really received emails that seriously threaten him and/or his family then he should definitely contact the police. This is a crime and the senders can almost certainly be tracked down (unless they were very cautious indeed).
It seems incredibly odd to me that anyone reading this thread would have become sufficiently angry to send threatening messages but nothing should surprise me nowadays!
In my view, that is why active and totally honest participation is always the best way forward, something which Ray did not do too well with to begin with in this thread.
However, a key aspect of knowing forums is knowing when and how to get involved. In my view, Ray was definitely right to get involved when he did in order to correct inaccuracies but, as I observed earlier, he handled his intervention poorly to begin with by not being totally open in his very first message. Keeping a low profile is not necessarily a good strategy; it is all about how you handle your profile. If you or your stock are being discussed in negative or erroneous terms then I think it is critical to take part openly and honestly to correct errors.
(Language skills matter too: Perhaps it shouldn't be so but language skills have significant input into how people are perceived online, especially when they are correcting misapprehensions and errors about themselves or their products).
^^^
Completely agree. We, the forum, were quick to "out" Ray, or insist he was outed, to clarify intent and fact... the same energy should be given to protect him from threats if they were made by forum members.
On the other hand, if seriously threatening emails really have been received then it might be better to avoid inflaming things here and to take it up directly with the police. Perhaps naming and shaming might become appropriate after police action has been completed.
If members of this fine forum are threatening people with violence they should be (I) reported to the Police and (II) named and shamed in H&V so that the membership can add them to 'ze list'
Outrageous behaviour
I find it hard to believe as well. Why should anyone from here threaten Ray privately, when they can—and do—just abuse him to his face right on this thread? Perhaps he really did get emails, but they weren't from a forum member, and he mistakenly thought they were?
As you're aware, they could have come from anyone no matter what the contents: Email addresses and signatures can be trivially forged. Without investigation of logs that tie IP to person, potentially across multiple companies and servers, there is no way to be absolutely sure of who sent them (unless the senders admit to it).
This being so, pretty much whatever we think here is speculation. Even the recipient can't be absolutely certain of who sent them.
This is why I say that naming and shaming before the police have done what they need to do would be premature.
I recently received threats of physical violence by PM. When I chose to make those messages public, it was me who received criticism for it - the other member is still here and has never apologised.
Police, I say.
There's all sorts of forum members in addition to the few hundred (total guess) of regular posters.
Getting back to dial, it was called fake by a number of members then extended to obvious teabag treatment, wrong closed 6's and goodness knows to production runs of dials that exhibit the exact same discolouration and loss of lume. It clearly was the same dial in both listings and the mystery solved as a result of an eBay auto re-listing or non ending of listing on the dealers part. What someone else did with the dial in putting it in another 5513 is not the original sellers fault, but to have both listed at the same time on eBay certainly added another twist and got some members working overtime with the possibilities.
Yes, Ray tried to damp it down a bit vaguely, before the full story, but when your a dealer and your items are called fake on the premier UK watch forum when they are not, it can have reputational consequences
Whatever else has gone on, remember this was not a fake dial.
True. However, even though it would be interesting to see the emails in public, I can't see what would really be gained by the forum making a judgement about them. We're not the police. I can certainly appreciate that if I was in Ray's position and I had received seriously threatening emails, I'd rather keep them private until the police had done all that they were going to do about them.
Thus I can't draw any substantive conclusions from lack of emails being made public at this time.
Blimey, all I wanted to do was raise a genuine concern that someone might be fabricating hooky patinaed dials or that something was very off.
Ray, I am sorry if my thread caused you any distress however you could haved resolved the issue in your first post.
As for threats - unacceptable and the perpetrators should be ashamed of themselves.
Hi
(great start , miss-spelled title)
I'm new to this forum, but have lurked on occasion. I'm a watch freak, particularly vintage, and a silver freak.
I quite often look at expensive watches on ebay and elsewhere, just to drool really. Yesterday, I came across a square cased Patek Phillipe. The logo on the dial looks like its been painted on with a hairbrush. When I see something odd like this , I tend to google the seller. It lead me to this thread. Having looked at the sellers other items I came across what believe was the reason for this thread, i.e. the 'ultra rare rolex sub 5513'. I noticed the dial looks remarkably similar to the one mentioned here. I've brought this up because over the past several months I've been looking at vintage Rolex watches, hoping to acquire one for my birthday (prezz off the wife). But TBH, I'm scared, because I'm not sure I trust any s/h Rolex to be as described. The regular Rolex sellers on ebay advertise watches as being all original but often the dial looks too 'as new' or IMO, not correct looking. Sometimes they're advertised as original AND refinished, how can they be both?
When the time comes I think I'll get one from a shop, perhaps 'Watches of Wales' (and feedback?) or somewhere in the Birmingham Jewellery Quarter as I realise its important to see/hold it before spending big (for me).
Here's hoping this thread gets read and for some sound advice and recommended sellers from people far more experienced than myself.
Thankfully the bizarre madness of vintage Rolex sports watches leaves me completely cold, so there's no danger of me getting sucked in. For those less fortunate than me, apart from saying 'don`t do it', the best advice is to buy from the most reputable sources such as Mike Wood at the oldwatchshop in Southport, or Haywood Milton. There are others. Worst way to buy is off ebay or from a dealer who is trying to pass a watch off as something it isn`t.
Part of the problem is the buyers themselves. The current market has been created by the so-called collectors/elitists and their obsession with having exactly the right bezel insert, dial, and even the right font on the date wheel. Originality has been taken to a crazy level, with hundreds/thousands of pounds invested in the crumbling lume on a handset or the font on a worn out datewheel. It's little wonder that fake patina'd dials are out there, or hands that are made to look old, the obsessive buyers have created the market and demand is being met!
Parts got replaced on these watches for a very good reason. Bezel inserts got scratched and battered, lume started dropping off dials and hands, date wheels were replaced because the bloody teeth were damaged........not simply because some repairer fancied swapping them! Very few of the folks who fawn over these things have ever tried removing a handset with lume that's turned to dust and watched it start to crumble as soon as the hand is touched......it certainly focuses the mind!
I`m not a philistine, I like old watches to be original (where practicable) and I own some nice old Omegas myself. However, I think there's a certain type of madness around old Rolex sports. I can see the appeal of a nice example in great condition, but the sheer obsession with bezel fonts etc goes over my head. Maybe the sensible way into it is to deliberately buy something that isn't quite right and pay a lot less money. Provided the watch presents well, has a good case, runs well, has a dial and handset that match, who cares whether it's absolutely correct, it's a nice watch to own and wear. Leave the true 'collectors grade' examples for the purists and be thankful you're not one of them!
Be careful out there.
Paul
Thanks for this. I think if I could afford a sub I'd probably buy new from an AD, newish S/H don't seem much cheaper which is good from a depreciation point of view. I'm in the market for something that may be slightly less of a minefield, just a vintage Rolex auto, date, that looks good, not too battered. box and papers would be nice but that's another minefield. Agree with ebay. too risky unless a personal visit to the seller. I've bought many many vintage watches over the past few years. Be it wristwatch, pocket watch, spare / repair. I've never had a mis-represented watch yet. But who cares for the cheap ones. Once there's money to be made then it becomes tricky. I'm not all OCD when it comes to originality, just something that is as described. I can feel a trip to the national motor cycle museum coming on.. 12th March I think.