Botched repair (battery lead) advice required.

Mrs B4Ws wheelchair batteries have been getting really tired of late and ordered some new ones yesterday and unbelievably they turned up first thing this morning less than 24 hours from ordering.

Thats the good part.

This is the wiring on one of the batteries, the chair has 2 in parallel

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...7cb6e8ae_k.jpg

While peeling back the boot on the positive terminal i some how managed this, it was a very snug fit I have to say


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...bb2327ca_k.jpg

For now I have just pushed the wires into the flat end (whatever its called) and secured with plenty of electrical tape and thank goodness the chair fired up and is working fine.

So, how would the wire normally be attached to the flat end and how long can I expect my heath Robinson repair to last?

Obviously I need to get a replacement but would you believe that my local wheelchair, all things for the disabled type shop is not deemed an essential business and is currently forced to close, but thats another discussion not for here.

Just had a thought, can i but a lead with one of those connectors on, cut it to length and fix it into the grey junction box.

As I dont know what these are called what would I need to search for?

I’d be crimping it nice and tight and soldering it personally.

If you can get the lead out of the Anderson connector (grey thing) you could get a lead with a ring connector of the correct size on and remake the joint there.

Like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/18-Motorb...Cclp%3A2334524

the ring terminal come in different sizes, cables too

It’s poor crimping, there is no way that you should be able to pull that out, technically the wire should break first, if possible I would contact the supplier and see if they can do a swap, otherwise, maybe you their is a pirtec or hydraulic hose company near you open over the weekend, they should have something they can re crimp it with, it’s a shame your not near me, it’s a 30 second job. It could be soldered but the heat will make a bit of a mess, unless you have a soldier pot.

Seems to be poor crimp,you could try squashing in a vice plus solder if you can.

I would try solder if need to fix in house. If you ask the wheelchair supplier they probably have plenty of spares as they look like the UPS connector that comes with OEM batteries but not with pattern ones.

Crimping the wire into the eyelet was and is how it should be done. Crimped connectors should not be subsequently soldered.

R

I would solder it if you can.

Crimping that will without the correct tool will not hold it firm I doubt.

It would be better, ( in the absence of solder ) to centrepunch it twice along the split reckon...that will not cause as much malformation to the sleeve and should create better contact

Thanks for the replies guys.

I did try and crimp with some standard pliers but could not the connector to budge, I’m too weak I guess and a very solid end. I could use a vice I suppose.

Would this damage the connector as it is obviously not intended to be deformed.

Obviously it was flood soldered originally, and not very well.

If the terminal / lug is full of solder , you should be able to heat it up & pop the cable back in .

Edited to say , the terminal / lug can be crimped or soldered to the cable , your attempt to crimp it shouldn’t have caused any damage unless you’ve split it .

Would a car battery supplier / fitter or a large motor factors have the correct tool to re-crimp this terminal? Or, preferably, supply and fit an new terminal?

Even if soldering is a option, with something that big it is going to take a lot of heat and I'd be worried about the cable insulation etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spanner monkey

If the terminal / lug is full of solder , you should be able to heat it up & pop the cable back in .

Edited to say , the terminal / lug can be crimped or soldered to the cable , your attempt to crimp it shouldn’t have caused any damage unless you’ve split it .

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To have any chance of success you would need to flood the joint with flux,

Squeezing it isn’t really a good idea, you need some sort of die to maintain the shape, what size is the cable, I have done it successfully with a set of bolt cutters and very careful pressure.

Did the lead come with the battery or was it supplied with the wheelchair? If it came with the battery then you need get the supplier to replace it as it's badly manufactured - check any other cables they supplied as well. If it came with the wheelchair then an auto-electrician or even a garage may be able to repair the connection.

Keep a good eye on your temporary repair as the battery supplies pretty high currents & it's very likely that the joint has quite a high resistance & could get hot - very hot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ben4watches

Thanks for the replies guys.

I did try and crimp with some standard pliers but could not the connector to budge, I’m too weak I guess and a very solid end. I could use a vice I suppose.

Would this damage the connector as it is obviously not intended to be deformed.

Obviously it was flood soldered originally, and not very well.

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If you have a nut that is smaller than the crimp you could cut it in half and then use that as a die to retain the shape of the ferrule ?

Any local garage can repair that for you in five minutes.

Shrink wrap and hot gun?

The lead is part of the chair, batteries came as batteries only.

Good call on the garage, there is an Indy just around the corner from me who may or may not be willing to help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr Pointy

Did the lead come with the battery or was it supplied with the wheelchair? If it came with the battery then you need get the supplier to replace it as it's badly manufactured - check any other cables they supplied as well. If it came with the wheelchair then an auto-electrician or even a garage may be able to repair the connection.

Keep a good eye on your temporary repair as the battery supplies pretty high currents & it's very likely that the joint has quite a high resistance & could get hot - very hot.

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For all suggesting soldering, considering the size of cable and crimp your average hobby soldering iron won’t touch it. It will require a big old iron with many watts.
The correct crimping tool is a special bit of kit that hopefully a garage will have.
Don’t leave you’re repair for long as it will be a high resistance and get hot with high current draw, which could cause damage.
If you can’t get it fixed drop me a PM. We have wire/crimps/tools at work. It’s possible I could make a replacement and then post it to you.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

Just watched this vid on flood soldering, seems simple enough.

https://youtu.be/6IjG6-PxNBs

Looks as though I could use a kitchen blow torch, melt solder into connector and insert cable, job done or am i over simplifying the job.

Ok I would need some solder but have the blow torch. What solder would I need?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ben4watches

Just watched this vid on flood soldering, seems simple enough.

Looks as though I could use a kitchen blow torch, melt solder into connector and insert cable, job done or am i over simplifying the job.

Ok I would need some solder but have the blow torch. What solder would I need?

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Plumbing solder and tin of flux from Wickes/Screwfix etc.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/fernox-so...ead-free/77198

https://www.screwfix.com/p/la-co-flu...cap-125g/61072

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ben4watches

Just watched this vid on flood soldering, seems simple enough.

https://youtu.be/6IjG6-PxNBs

Looks as though I could use a kitchen blow torch, melt solder into connector and insert cable, job done or am i over simplifying the job.

Ok I would need some solder but have the blow torch. What solder would I need?

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It really needs crimping first before soldering. The solder won’t fill up the terminal that easily, when it’s hot enough for the solder to run it will simply run out of the terminal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lew07

I’d be crimping it nice and tight and soldering it personally.

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this,loose wires can get very hot quickly .if you have a pair of molegrips you can use those as an improvised crimping tool,if you were near me i would sort it for you..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ben4watches

While peeling back the boot on the positive terminal i some how managed this, it was a very snug fit I have to say

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Think you have your positive and negative mixed up. Positive is red, negative is black. Were the battery connector cables and plug part of the supplied battery replacement or are they part of the chair wiring? (ie who supplied them)

Nevertheless, I do not recommend soldering. Any electrical joint should be a good mechanical connection between the conductors then secured in place with solder if required. By soldering this you are creating a bodge as you'll then be asking the solder to become part of the main conduction route instead of fixing the crimp properly so there is a purely mechanical connection between cable and tag.

Crimps like this are not intended to be soldered and you'll just be adding another type of metal to the connection which will accelerate bimetallic corrosion.

Ask the supplier for a replacement to do the job properly or find someone local with the correct size crimp tool and new crimp connector.

A wheelchair, powered or not, is a medical device and as such is manufactured to specific regulations.

Get it crimped as per the original design or seek a replacement from the manufacturer.

If any of my team suggested soldering such a connection I’d be having strong words with them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SydR

A wheelchair, powered or not, is a medical device and as such is manufactured to specific regulations.

Get it crimped as per the original design or seek a replacement from the manufacturer.

If any of my team suggested soldering such a connection I’d be having strong words with them.

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It's a means of transport not a medical device.

Do we know it was ever crimped BTW?

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Originally Posted by Kingstepper

It's a means of transport not a medical device.

Do we know it was ever crimped BTW?

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Look up the World Health Organisation’s definition of a medical device & speak with the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Authority (note: I have done both in my day job) and then come back and tell me how it is classed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SydR

Look up the World Health Organisation’s definition of a medical device & speak with the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Authority (note: I have done both in my day job) and then come back and tell me how it is classed.

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I did not know this until I went to a very interesting talk given by one of my staff about the legality of being trying to hack/modify medical devices...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alansmithee

I did not know this until I went to a very interesting talk given by one of my staff about the legality of being trying to hack/modify medical devices...

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I’m ISO 13485 approved, their are directives however they never tell us how to do things, most regulation is around class2 diagnostic devices, design compliance and traceability are their main objectives. I would be surprised if a wheelchair was covered. I would say ISO9001 if your lucky.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SydR

Look up the World Health Organisation’s definition of a medical device & speak with the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Authority (note: I have done both in my day job) and then come back and tell me how it is classed.

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Fair enough, was using a common sense definition of what a medical device might be.

Don't see that this precludes OP repairing as he wishes.

Thanks again guys.

You can tell from my pic this was never crimped, just soldered and has never been touched since we bought the chair new a couple of years ago.

Wiring is manufacturer supplied with the chair so connection was soldered from new.

I will be popping over garage tomorrow to see what they can do.

Fortunately Sally is working from home at present so the chair is not getting heavy all day use.

Ben,
I don't think it was soldered.

It doesn't look like it to my eyes and also it certainly shouldn't have been soldered by the manufacturer.

R

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kingstepper

Fair enough, was using a common sense definition of what a medical device might be.

Don't see that this precludes OP repairing as he wishes.

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I’m in medical devices and trust me when I say common sense is sometimes not very common when it comes to the regulatory bodies of such things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JasonM

I’m in medical devices and trust me when I say common sense is sometimes not very common when it comes to the regulatory bodies of such things.

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TBH irrelevant whether it is or not here - really no different to repairing a bike or car.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JasonM

I’m in medical devices and trust me when I say common sense is sometimes not very common when it comes to the regulatory bodies of such things.

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I recall seeing a PowerPoint slide showing listing many items and asking the reader to state which were medical devices. Very few people get 100%.

Ring terminals are not designed to be soldered, they should be crimped.

This has not been crimped correctly, either the wrong terminal has been used for the gauge of wire or the wrong crimp tool has been used.

If you don't have any luck I am sure the seller of this item on EBay would help you.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50cm-ANDE....m46890.l49292

Ben it was not crimped properly from the start. Your temp fix. Will be fine. You just need to find someone with a big crimping tool. Sorry I do not have access to one.

I have seen this before in my job.

You can PM me if you were unable to get it sorted, I might be able to get you new leads from one of my contacts.

As others have said, I'm sure a local independent garage would be able to sort it easily. It's no different to a battery lead on a car really.

Can I ask why it should not be soldered?

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Originally Posted by IAmATeaf

Can I ask why it should not be soldered?

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Soldering makes the joint stiff, crimped joints are flexible, in this case soldering wouldn’t do any harm, it just wouldn’t be very practical, in a production environment if you wanted to solder a large cable you would use a solder pot, flux the inside of the ferrule, dip the cable into the pot to tin, then push straight into the ferrule.

You may want to try Hickleys in Taunton Ben. I imagine they have the correct crimp tool.

Edit. I’ve just been reading the data sheet for the Anderson plug on the RS Components website and states it is ok to solder them. I thought I would mention this as there is some difference of opinion on whether soldering is ok and in case your chosen garage is suggesting this way forward. I would be happy with solder connections in your application.

And you may want to ask them to check both positive and negative connections whilst you are there, just in case.

Thanks for your input Simon.

Yes, all the videos Ive watched show this type of connection soldered when using Anderson plugs. I just want to make sure that the repair, whatever the garage suggests will hold tight as I’m not overly confident that the method I used will be long lasting. That said there is zero movement in the connection when attached to the battery so I have no reason to think it would/could work loose.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gurmot

You may want to try Hickleys in Taunton Ben. I imagine they have the correct crimp tool.

Edit. I’ve just been reading the data sheet for the Anderson plug on the RS Components website and states it is ok to solder them. I thought I would mention this as there is some difference of opinion on whether soldering is ok and in case your chosen garage is suggesting this way forward. I would be happy with solder connections in your application.

And you may want to ask them to check both positive and negative connections whilst you are there, just in case.

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A quick and happy update

Went over to the local Indy garage this morning who was quite disinterested, no big deal as I had another plan up my sleeve.

Contacted these people via email with some pics and a description of what had happened

https://www.rotec.net/

A guy called Andy replied within 5 minutes asking me drop it in and he will sort it (they are only 5 minutes away) and true to his word within minutes of dropping it in at reception it was recrimped and a fresh heat sink sleeve attached to nicely finish it off, and the best bit (but wholly unimportant to me as I just wanted the job doing) no charge Sir, happy to be of help.

It actually took me longer to access the batteries than to drive there, get the job done and drive home.

:thumbsup:

R

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gurmot

You may want to try Hickleys in Taunton Ben. I imagine they have the correct crimp tool.

Edit. I’ve just been reading the data sheet for the Anderson plug on the RS Components website and states it is ok to solder them. I thought I would mention this as there is some difference of opinion on whether soldering is ok and in case your chosen garage is suggesting this way forward. I would be happy with solder connections in your application.

And you may want to ask them to check both positive and negative connections whilst you are there, just in case.

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For an Anderson plug either crimping or soldering is OK, but for the ring terminal on Ben's battery cable crimping is the correct method.

R

Glad you got it sorted Ben.

Excellent result.

That’s fantastic! Glad you got it sorted, and it’s nice that some people still just want to help :)

Great result, its good when you find a company like that.

I had an issue with a double glazed window leaking. I called a local specialist who came out within 30mins of calling (he was doing invoices apparently and hates it, lol), fixed it in 10 mins for no charge and just asked I leave a good review on google (which I did).