Reply With QuoteI understand that Messrs Ricciardo and Verstappen will be standing in front of the workforce at Milton Keynes during the next week and apologising.Originally Posted by jwillans
Well that was certainly an entertaining race !
I understand that Messrs Ricciardo and Verstappen will be standing in front of the workforce at Milton Keynes during the next week and apologising.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
in other news, none of the three drivers accused of using their DRS illegally will be penalised.
For whatever reason, the automated DRS system which alerts the drivers that they may use DRS by an audio bleep didn't work at one of the DRS zones, and three drivers (Kevin Magnussen, Sergio Perez and Lance Stroll) all used their DRS when they were either outside of the DRS zone, or more than a second behind the car in front.
The FIA admitted that there was a fault with the DRS advice system, and that the drivers had not been adequately advised by their teams when they could activate DRS, but none of them achieved an overtake as a result.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Crikey, a good race, my faith in F1 is almost restored. Almost
Crikey, a good race, my faith in F1 is almost restored. Almost
Don't get too excited. The last two races were on circuits with exceptionally long straights, and in the case of Baku many other obstacles to a straightforward race, such as part of a tree landing on the track.
Next up is Barcelona, where the pre-season tests took place, so everyone will arrive with their setups pretty much sorted - the only difference this year is that the first week of testing was almost wiped out by exceptionally cold and damp weather conditions.
Although there is a decent enough start/finish straight, there aren't many opportunities for overtaking, as Kimi Raikkonen found out when he was trying and failing to deny Max Verstappen his first Grand Prix victory.
Normal service will be resumed in a fortnight.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
So they should.
Agreed.
My only regret is having picked Vettel (1st time this year over Hamilton), Verstappen, Oncon & Grosjean in Fantasy F1.
and WTF is going on with Hamiltons barnet???
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
The stewards have seen fit to issue official reprimands to both RB drivers as, in their opinion, both played a part in their coming together - Max for moving twice and Daniel for braking too late. Seems fair to me. Both were incredibly contrite in their post race interviews, neither played the blame game, and respect to Christian Horner in facing the cameras post race knowing full well what the topic of conversation would be. No word yet from the stewards on the Kimi and Ocon incident.
There were a number of firsts in Azerbaijan. First win in Baku for Lewis (he's now won at every track they're racing at this season), first race appearance for ex FIA man Marcin Budkowski in the Renault garage, first F1 points for Leclerc and Hartley, and the first points of the season for Williams - you could easily imagine the collective sigh of relief in the latter's garage. It was also the first pundit appearance for Eddie Jordan this season, I see that his taste in shirts is no different from previous years. Perez now tops the charts for Mexican podium finishers as well, in fact FI had a competitive weekend. Leclerc was suitably chuffed in his post race interview, he had his best F1 weekend yet and at a circuit where he finished 1st and 2nd in F2 last season. Good to see an interview with Renault F1 boss Cyril Abiteboul howeverhedoesnthalftalkfast.
Bottas would be fully entitled to feel as though he was robbed and it was great to see his teammate commiserate with him prior to taking the top step, and Wolff has said that the key to this season is to maximise the performance of the tyres. It was a chilly race weekend and Mercedes, as well as one or two others, appeared to struggle getting a race set to ideal temperatures.
Last edited by CardShark; 29th April 2018 at 22:50.
pdf link:
No / Driver 31 - Esteban Ocon Competitor Sahara Force India F1 Team Time 16:14 Session Race Fact Car 31 collided with car 7 in turn 3. Offence Alleged causing a collision in breach of Article 2d of Chapter IV Appendix L of the FIA International Sporting Code. Decision No further action.
Ricciardo and Verstappen, pdf link:
Both drivers contributed to the collision. The driver of car 33 made two moves, both of which were relatively minor.
The driver of car 3 admitted he left his move to overtake on the left, too late.
It was obvious to the stewards that although the incident had its origins in the moves by car 33, the driver of car 3 also contributed to the incident.
Both drivers expressed regret about their respective contributions to the incident, during the Stewards’ hearing.
Last edited by PickleB; 29th April 2018 at 23:03.
^^ Correct decision ref Kimi and Ocon, next time I'll look harder to see if the stewards had drawn all their conclusions
I can't take it seriously when images of allo allo keep popping into my head
'looks like' is the correct term:
That guy over on Sky did a great comment on the RB incident yesterday. Can't find it (in a hurry now)
Menno
Last edited by thieuster; 30th April 2018 at 08:20.
Oh my god ! How much of the city do they do that to?'looks like' is the correct term:
That guy over on Sky did a great comment on the RB incident yesterday. Can't find it (in a hurry now)
Menno
It's common in Venice also when they're refurbishing/underpinning/refloating/resuscitating parts of the city.
Re: the race, interesting that a safety car decides the ultimate result.
- Hamilton, lucky win and duly acknowledged, his head doesn't appear to be in the game at present.
- Valteri, what can you say, drove well all weekend and was cruelly robbed.
- Grosjean?? Heard a great quote but I'm not sure it's genuine about wind and a second gunman on the grassy knoll, it was attributed to Grosjean but sadly I don't think that's real.
And then the real incident... My personal view is that once again Max was at fault. Danny Ric should have probably recognised that Max's wheel to wheel skill is not as accomplished as others he tries that move with and should arguably have tried somewhat later in the race to do it. Red Bull should've applied team orders and let the clearly quicker driver through (and not shafted him on strategy once again). As for Max, I mentioned before in this thread that Danni Kvyatt (spelling, I can't remember as it seems an age since he was in F1) lost his seat for much less. Whilst RB have bet the farm on Max how soon before they actually discipline him? Maybe a race in STR would cool his jets and allow RB to evaluate Gasly for when Ricciardo leaves. And leave he will IMHO, the lack of (public) sanction or reprimand for Max tells him all he needs to know about his future role in that team (IMHO). Max will never learn unless he's reprimanded in some way despite trying his usual MO with more accomplished drivers and messing up (Vettel, Hamilton in China for example).
Onwards to Barcelona. Will Mercedes bring updates to help with their tyre warming, when will the legendary "party mode" be truly unleashed or is this the New World Order.
Also, does anyone know what the issue was with Ferrari's floor that caused complaints from rival teams but was subsequently cleared by the FIA?
While Max does indeed need to cool his driving down a bit, in this instance the stewards reprimanded them both, so I guess they saw it as a 50/50.
Knowing how Gung Ho Max is, Daniel really should have just tried to make the overtake using DRS and slipstream rather than under breaking into the corner.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/r...nd-prix-report
A little light reading for you.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Baku is a stunning fabulous city.
'looks like' is the correct term:
That guy over on Sky did a great comment on the RB incident yesterday. Can't find it (in a hurry now)
Menno
Yeah but he's a racing driver.
I like the use of 'breaking' in the context of Max.
"A man of little significance"
Normal karting move
During the first safety car, did anyone else think that Vettel was brake testing the rest of pack? If not then it was getting pretty close to it.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
The lead car controls the pace. It’s up to the cars behind to make sure they don’t bump into each other.
Ha, only just noticed that. Bloody autocorrect.
Wasn't it last year at Baku that Hamilton definitely didn't brake test Vettel?
He didnt, according to the FIA, the telemetry and even Vettel (after he reviewed the data).
Yet when you watch the restart after the first safety car, you will see Vettel accelerate and then brake very hard on at least 3 occasions before he finally took off. At one point LH almost ran into the back of him.
Pretty poor, but the real issue was the concertina effect it was having on the rest of the pack.
But if you think that Vettel was doing the right thing and this was reasonable/safe then fair enough.
Last edited by Andyg; 30th April 2018 at 17:12.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
How lucky was Hamilton? I know some people don't like him but he seems to pull it out when needed.
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Its not our opinion that matters really, Lewis complained about the point you raise and Charlie Whiting said Vettel was within the rules.
Cheers..
Jase
Well Charlie should know, but it has set a very poor precedence which will cause more accidents.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
It didn't cause an accident.
Only because Hamilton knew what was coming and reacted quickly enough, but it did mean everyone else was on the brakes when SV was on the throttle.
It was dangerous, I would say SV was lucky, if there had been an accident the stewards may have taken a completely different view
The rules according to the FIA -
- In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from thepoint at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace whichinvolves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely toendanger other drivers or impede the restart.
but I suppose it depends upon what constitutes erratic.
Personally I would say it was erratic. I can imagine the rules being make clearer in the not to distance future, but only after there has been a pile up because of this ruling. I can see a driver almost stopping just before a hairpin apex and then going. This will cause accidents behind as drivers hit the throttle before the apex especially if they have just been brake tested. Don't forget how cold the tyres might be.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
LH was accused of causing an accident last year, doing something very similar and Vettel not paying attention. It could have easily happened this year.
But just because they wasn't an accident this time, ain't you missing the point?
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
It was an accident last year and LH was not deemed having tested his brakes. Why would it be brake testing when there was no accident?
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Because the telemetry proved that Vettel ran into the back LH and LH was not on the brakes. He simply accelerated and then took his foot off the throttle.
It would have been brake testing if Vettel hit LH and that LH had been on the brakes.
But I am stuggling to see why you cannot understand this. If you are driving behind someone and they keep erratically accelerating and then braking hard, chance are you will either him them or you have to back right off and risk getting hit by the car behind. It's bad enough in a normal road car, imagine what it must be like in an F1 car when racing.
As I said Charlie has set the precedent and I hope it will not come back to bite him.
Plus don't you see the irony. It was just 12 months ago when Vettel was all outraged and doing his histrionics and accusing (incorrectly) LH of doing the same thing.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Are you sure Vettel was braking on Sunday ? Engine braking is pretty strong on these cars, especially in the lower gears..Perhaps he was doing just what LH was doing last year?
( I don’t know the answer by the way) whatever he was doing he knew what he was doing and I’m pretty sure he would have known what was allowed on what was not.
Cheers..
Jase
I seem to remember that although initially incensed at having been caught napping, Vettel acknowledged the telemetry without problems. I think they should dismiss Charlie as he obviously doesn't understand the rules. And your stark warning from the comfort of your chair will serve to show how immensely more qualified you would be in his place. All it will take is an accident between 2 pilots following a restart. Any accident where one car bumps into the other will do, but it would be even better if the driver just touched the brakes.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Aero changes confirmed for 2019: http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/124...ost-overtaking
This video does a good job of explaining the difficulties created by the turbulent wake created by a Formula 1 car:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdWF...ature=youtu.be
Although it shows the 2017 aero package, it differs only in a few small details from 2018.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
That is a good video. I wonder if instead of DRS it might instead be more fun to have wings front and back on a following car that adjust to work differently and let cars overtake into corners rather than on straights?
Oh, I forgot, the tracks are often so rubbish the straights are the only places cars can overtake.
"A man of little significance"
Controlling the pace, and erratic braking are 2 very different things.
It was a bit borderline, but seemed to get his tyres and brakes up to temp well. Interesting that when Bottas was able to control the pace, Vettel clearly couldn't get his brake Temps up using the same strategy.
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Oh dear, if you cannot see how Vettel stretched the rules on the restart then you must be blind. I did not see VB doing the same thing, nor have I seen other drivers doing it previously. Now they will because Vettel got away with it.
Hopefully they can provide a definition of erratic to save further discussion.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Finally! This is good news.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
There is a rule specifically banning "Moveable aerodynamic devices". Apart from DRS, obviously. I think that the rule dates from the early days of wings in the 1970's, when they were the cause of several accidents, and the FIA scrutineers now have quite sophisticated measuring devices which can check for deflection under load - Red Bull's front wings could be seen to deflect at speed when viewed from the on-board cameras at the Hungaroring back in about 2009/10 from memory, causing much gnashing of teeth from the rest of the teams who hadn't thought of doing it first and therefore wanted the FIA to outlaw wings which had any degree of flexibility.
At one point only a few years ago the driver could adjust the angle of their front wing by "not more than six degrees" from a control in the cockpit, but it was decided that this was more of a hindrance than anything else, so it was dropped.
On the 2019 proposals for simplified front wings, with an "inwash" effect (as opposed to the current works of art, which give an "outwash" effect), I seem to recall that before 2009 the cars had much simpler front wings and wider rear wings. The lack of overtaking led to the introduction of wider front and narrower rear wings in 2009, in order to increase the effect of the front wing of a following car, and promote easier overtaking. In 2009 McLaren's front wing was the only design which created an "inwash" effect, and the car was outperformed by all of the "outwash" designs, so they changed it mid-season.
Since 2009, the front wings have been developed to shape the airflow around the sides of the car and over the top of the diffuser, to increase its effectiveness. The 2019 front wings will send the airflow towards the centreline of the car, so all that will happen is that the barge boards will become more intricate, and will guide the air flow around undercut sidepods and out over the diffuser. The net effect will be minimal unless there are changes and restrictions to aerodynamic devices in the area between the front suspension and sidepods.
The impact of what appears to be a simple rule change to outlaw the incredibly intricate front wings that we see on the current cars cannot be underestimated. The current wings send airflow around the front tyres, to minimise the turbulence which they create, and are sufficiently developed as to be able to create contra-rotating vortices which then merge as they are shaped around the sidepod and over the section of rear floor before they exit over the diffuser, while the sides of the rear floor create a high-pressure "seal" between the underside of the floor and the track, which recreates to a degree the effect of the Lexan skirts used to seal the sidepods to the track in the days of ground-effect. Changing the front wings will result in a complete redesign of the barge boards, deflectors, rear floor and diffuser which will, in turn, cost huge amounts of money in wind-tunnel, CFD and simulator work, at a time when almost half of the Grand Prix field are struggling for money.
It's the wrong solution, at the wrong time.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Yeah, the FIA would have to control how the wing is designed, made and functions but no one wants identikit cars. Which reminds me of the staff of a Japanese magazine who, around 20 years ago, showed all the then-current F1 drivers pictures of the 10 F1 cars at the time, all in profile and painted white. Not a single driver recognised his own car.
"A man of little significance"
Agreed, to some extent.
However it makes no difference in the scheme of money though, they would have been redesigning all the aero pieces anyway. CFD makes no difference if you’re scaling for one small piece or redesigning the whole thing, it’s still a supercomputer pumping out numbers.
Personally I don’t think there’s anyway around the ramp on of aero, bar enforcing rules to single plane wings etc. (which no team would agree to, in effect ‘retroing’ their cars - not what you want from the cutting edge of motorsport); they’re here to stay and as it develops, it will naturally be that teams work to overtake each other, rather than design a silver bullet car to stay in front.
Cleaning up the wings, keeps costs down for manufacture at least.
It at least seems there is better communication between Liberty, the teams and the FIA, which is at least a massive step forward. I think Liberty are going about a lot of things the right way. Making the TV show more accessible (additional graphics & pieces to help new viewers) is definitely a massive bonus, to try and grow their viewer base, which Bernie seemed intent to push into the high-end.
https://twitter.com/Planet_F1/status/991621789133557760
Pretty weird (if it's true of course)
Totally weird and likely to see him looking for a new job at the end of the season, if not before!
If he’s prepared to die then, by implication, he’s prepared to kill (or at least be reckless to the fact that others may die too) which makes him totally unemployable in my book!
And that was before the GP: Magnussen, hard and fast and a blast from the past.
So not much change over time:
It's OK to think it but not OK to say it.
Take his licence off him.
The issue here is that you can't un-learn aerodynamics, and the Formula has developed to a point where the tiniest of changes can result in a quantifiable advantage. So if single or twin-plane front wings are mandated by the FIA, the teams will find a way to make them more effective than the FIA imagined possible, and we return to square one.
The finest engineering brains on the planet work in Formula 1, and it's their job to squeeze every advantage possible from the rules, and the way that those rules are written. The rule changes for 2009 were designed to make the front wings contribute more downforce, make the rear wing less effective, and enable one car to follow another and overtake.
Then Ross Brawn and his team came up with the double diffuser and drove a cart and horses through the FIA's intentions.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Next weekend sees the start of the "proper" Grand Prix season, and the European races (ignoring Canada), some of which are on tracks which haven't been redesigned or otherwise messed about by Herr Tilke.
The traditional European opener is, of course, Barcelona, and the teams arrive with the benefit of having run this year's cars there in pre-season testing. Although, given that the first test was affected by abnormally low temperatures and even snow, the data gathered in testing may not help with their set-up work on Friday.
Tyre choices for the weekend:
As usual, Ferrari and Mercedes differ slightly, with Mercedes erring on the side of slightly harder compounds, as their car is harder on the rear tyres in particular. This is one of a couple of races this year for which Pirelli have less rubber on the tyres, to reduce heat build-up. The first and second sectors, and Turns 3 and 4 in particular, place huge demands on the left front tyre.
The tyre choices at Williams are interesting.
It's a circuit which usually rewards form, yet is capable of throwing up a surprise result - Max Verstappen's win in his debut race for Red Bull, and even a win for Pastor Maldonado. It's a power circuit, so it's hard on engines and fuel consumption is high.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
I was about to say the thing that stands out to me is Williams' choice! Bold.
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