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Thread: My hobby just got out of control...

  1. #51
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    Taking this hobby to the next level!

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  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by relaxer7 View Post
    Makes me laugh when somebody pitches up as a kickstarter with loads of rubbish patter and a cheap Chinese case and movement. OP has the skills to pay the bills!
    Oh.. those watches.. we call those "Alibaba-specials" where a "designer" searches the Alibaba site for watchcases, dials, hands and a movement, all cheap as chips, Fabricobble that together, and create a BS Story about minimalistic design, and a totally imaginary history.

    The problem is.. a lot of people fall for it... an i have far too little imagination to come up with "Stories" like those brands..in fact.. so little imagination, when i was a little boy, my imaginary friend even left me

    So the only thing i can come up with.. is the truth... Dang!.. I wonder.. how does it feel to people when the know they're not being lied to?

  3. #53
    Master westy's Avatar
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    Excellent thread, thanks for sharing!

  4. #54


    Wow. Love that.

  5. #55
    Master daveyw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arie Kabaalstra View Post
    Oh.. those watches.. we call those "Alibaba-specials" where a "designer" searches the Alibaba site for watchcases, dials, hands and a movement, all cheap as chips, Fabricobble that together, and create a BS Story about minimalistic design, and a totally imaginary history.

    The problem is.. a lot of people fall for it... an i have far too little imagination to come up with "Stories" like those brands..in fact.. so little imagination, when i was a little boy, my imaginary friend even left me

    So the only thing i can come up with.. is the truth... Dang!.. I wonder.. how does it feel to people when the know they're not being lied to?

    Very impressive and great to see any post or thread on using machining skills. Good luck and please keep us updated

  6. #56
    The case of the Instrument 3, although looking clean and simple posed quite a challenge to make..

    the side of the case, for instance, couldn't be milled "Flat on the table" because of the crown guards



    above and below the crownguards, the shape is a straight line from the lug, to a radius, back to a straight line to the other lug.
    so i had to come up with another solution, putting the case vertically on the 4th axis of the milling machine



    that way, i could machine the case on both sides of the crownguards, by just programming a straight line, a rotation and another straight line, moving the tool sideways a little on every pass.
    Up to the crownguards coming from either side..



    the bottom of the case, especially the slanted surfaces of the lugs were machined with the case flat on the table of the mill.




    and for the top surfaces, i just flipped the part over..

  7. #57
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    This is amazing. Genuinely brilliant and fascinating to read.

    They look really well made and their designs are actually very nice!

  8. #58
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    Can only echo what others have said. Great read!

  9. #59
    I just want to take the world on a tour, to show how watches are actually designed and built, with all the technical challenges.

    It runs in the family, my grandfather, although not really a "Hands on guy" designed his own agricultural machines, if he needed something, he dreamt up a concept, a design, and had it made to his specifications, he did so, because he wasn't technically schooled.

    His sons however, did get technical education, so they started "Fiddling around" on the farm, now making the machines my grandfather needed on his farm, one of them, my father, made me toys, from metal, with leftover Meccano parts like gears and such, so i was introduced to technology from a very young age.

    a Few years later, i got a toolbox for my birthday, with some tools.. so i was now able to make stuff, with my own tools, one of the first things being a skateboard, from an old pair of rollerskates.. if i wanted toys..i didn't beg for them.. i made them, skateboards, soapbox-racers.. anything.

    Of course i got a technical education.. became a toolmaker even.. sometimes i think i should have gone to a watchmakers school, but then again.. they only teach you how to repair watches, not how to make them.

    And given the skillset i aquired as a toolmaker, i could just figure out how to make watches..

    But.. then again.. before i could make my first watch, i already had built my own CNC Milling machine, and i had converted an old CNC lathe to a modern Controller..that's basically i was finally able to make the small and intricate features that make a watchcase, and also small parts that go inside a watch.
    Although i don't make my own movements(yet), there's still some small parts to make, like clamping platelets that hold a movement in position inside the case, or special size stem-tubes, or pushers and so on.

    i'm now working on the design of my indexes, 0.8mm thick parts to be milled out of Titanium..let's see how that comes out..

  10. #60
    Fantastic stuff! Fascinating to see what can be done with even a fairly straightforward CNC machine, in the hands of a #watchnerd.
    Last edited by Broussard; 4th May 2017 at 07:30.

  11. #61
    well.. "fairly straightforward" would not do my CNC machine any justice to be honest, it now is 10 years old, but over the years i have added quite a lot of features.

    like the 4th axis for instance, but also the case around it, with sliding doors, the glassfiber chiptrays in the bottom, the control console, and the programming software.

    there's some 35Kb of parametric algoritms in that machine for all kinds of basic operations, 35Kb is three times the memory of my first computer ( Commodore C16)
    All hand-written code... took me 3 months to complete

    and the machine itself.. High-end guides and ballscrews, costing about the same as a TAG-Heuer Monaco (4.5K)

    The Lathe is also fitted with some 25Kb of hand written parametric code for basic operations, therefore i am able to program everything at the machine..

  12. #62
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    Absolutely stunning that you can make these things and share the techniques.
    It is people like you who move us all forwards with innovation and expertise.
    Precision engineers are truly a rare breed without whom there would be no progress in horology or many other mechanical industries.
    I have watched toolmakers creating new designs at Zenith Le Locle and have always been a bit jealous of their skills and dexterity.
    Congratulations on introducing your own brand.
    I wish you every success and hope you will be making generic watch parts soon !

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  13. #63
    a small update: about 2x3 mm



    2 of the 12 indexes already milled on the bottomside, the protruding pins are 0.5mm diameter and 0.4mm high

    after milling all the indexes on the bottom, they will be cut out, and put in a special vice i have yet to make, to machine the topside.

  14. #64
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arie Kabaalstra View Post
    Fabricobble that together, and create a BS Story about minimalistic design, and a totally imaginary history.
    Hehe, very good.

  15. #65
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    I'm really interested to see how this all develops, I take my hat off to you - this is how all the big watch houses all started at some point. Titanium is my favourite case material from an aesthetic point of view too.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arie Kabaalstra View Post
    So the only thing i can come up with.. is the truth... Dang!.. I wonder.. how does it feel to people when the know they're not being lied to?
    Superb. Takes the forum to the next level.

  17. #67
    Master Bloobird's Avatar
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    This is brilliant - fantastic work and I look forward to seeing more.

  18. #68
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    Nice work... fantastic!


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  19. #69
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    Just fascinating to read threads likes this and I'm in awe of the ingenuity and skills on display. Excellent work, Arie, thanks for sharing. I shall look forward to seeing more of your detailed posts if possible, and I wish you the best of luck with your venture!

  20. #70
    Great work and I for one am looking forward to the ride! Fascinating stuff :-)

  21. #71
    Sorry. I did not mean to appear disparaging.

    "Straightforward" was a reference to the machine: I have seen six-axis CNC mills, and other devices described as 12-axis machines. I'm also acutely aware of how long it takes to learn how to use them, and to programme them, as I spent some time last year talking to a watchmaker (Thomas Prescher) about his experiences with a similar piece of equipment. It's certainly a non-trivial task!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arie Kabaalstra View Post
    well.. "fairly straightforward" would not do my CNC machine any justice to be honest, it now is 10 years old, but over the years i have added quite a lot of features.

    like the 4th axis for instance, but also the case around it, with sliding doors, the glassfiber chiptrays in the bottom, the control console, and the programming software.

    there's some 35Kb of parametric algoritms in that machine for all kinds of basic operations, 35Kb is three times the memory of my first computer ( Commodore C16)
    All hand-written code... took me 3 months to complete

    and the machine itself.. High-end guides and ballscrews, costing about the same as a TAG-Heuer Monaco (4.5K)

    The Lathe is also fitted with some 25Kb of hand written parametric code for basic operations, therefore i am able to program everything at the machine..

  22. #72
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    Now that is very, very cool! Great story and great looking pilot.

  23. #73
    I just finished milling a new set of indices, i wasn't satisfied with yesterday's set..



    I left a slightly thinner layer , basically i went to "total depth" except on one side, to make sure the parts remained in the sheet of titanium.
    Yes, i do make my indices from Titanium!



    i took them out of the sheet, and cut off the burrs with a small chisel.
    Next step!, Machining them to thickness (removing 0.25mm from the top) and cutting a slot to fill with Lume...

  24. #74
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    This is one of the very best threads I have seen on here, as an engineer myself I am totally fascinated. Thanks for sharing and I look forward to seeing more.

  25. #75
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    Can this be made a sticky? This is one of the most interesting threads I've ever read on any forum. All the technical talk goes right over my head but I'm still loving it

  26. #76
    Let me get into some more details here..

    Quote Originally Posted by demonloop View Post
    This sort of work fascinates me, any more examples of your work, even if it's not watches?


    To give but an example, Boeing 747-400 milled out of 7 separate pieces of aluminium, and put together using "blind rivets".
    it took me about a week to design the thing in 3D, based upon measurements of a scalemodel kit, and another 120 hours to mill..
    This model is now a grave monument for a young pilot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Carlton-Browne View Post
    Welcome to the forum - and a very impressive beginning. As a matter of interest what are the computer file formats that you use to make your case designs; I'm trying to get an idea of how the process works?
    I make my designs in 3D, with a program called GeoMagic, it is similar to programs like AutoDesk Inventor, or Solidworks, but less expensive, that's how i have professional 3D CAD from the time i was still a hobbyist.
    The Fileformats of this program are AD_PRT and AD_ASM files, PRT stands for "Part" and ASM stands for "Assembly"

    With this program, you create 3D models of parts, and you can put the parts together in an assembly. just like in real life.. the beauty part of it is.. you can make parts fit other parts, even if the dimensions change, the entire Assembly is then re-calculated.

    I also make Watchmakers workbenches, i started with a bench for myself, and sold 13 others sofar.. my design is made up so that the main dimensions are stored in a separate table, when i alter the dimensions, a new 3D model is generated, and drawings are automatically updated.
    So when someone "orders" a workbench, i just ask for the desired dimensions, i enter those in the table, and re-generate the drawings, so i can order materials to the correct sizes..

    From the 3D models, i can "Project" flat drawings, which i use to program the machines, the lathe is programmed at the machine, by just "Slicing up" the part in easy to program operations, which are programmed as "Cycles" the Mill on the other had is mostly programmed with CAM software, making the program from a 2D drawing, or directly from a 3D STL file.

    After machining, it is just finishing every part.. and putting it together..

    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    Sorry. I did not mean to appear disparaging.

    "Straightforward" was a reference to the machine: I have seen six-axis CNC mills, and other devices described as 12-axis machines. I'm also acutely aware of how long it takes to learn how to use them, and to programme them, as I spent some time last year talking to a watchmaker (Thomas Prescher) about his experiences with a similar piece of equipment. It's certainly a non-trivial task!
    True, 3 axis machines are "pretty straight forward", most machinists can understand how everything works, and how to program them.. for the basic operations that is..

    When it comes to programming things like this:



    on a 3 axis CNC Machine, most programmers give up.. they simply can't get their head around how to pull such a thing off..
    Programming a 4axis machine (like mine) without CAM Software?.. simply out of the question..
    Well i did program 4 axis movements, i've made special pot-drills, because i needed them.. programmed the spiral flutes in Notepad.it is not that hard.. when you concentrate, and know how the machnine moves.. spatial awareness is highly recommended though..to put it mildly..

    I am thinking of, and already designing a 5 axis machine, with automatic toolchanger, something that is really needed when i am going to make "large editions" of my watches, 5 axis movement will enable me to machine a case in one clamping, and a toolchanger will allow me to program all different operations, like contour profiling, threadmilling, drilling the lugholes and stembore in one single program..

    Which basically means "insert case into machine, hit green button that says "GO" and leave workshop, drink coffee"
    I learnt programming when i was 14, when i had my Commodore Computer, later i learnt some Pascal/UCSD Compiler at school, and i tried some other programming languages, like Quickbasic, EPOC, and VisualBasic, and i wrote a lot of macro's for my CNC machines..

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveR View Post
    Can this be made a sticky? This is one of the most interesting threads I've ever read on any forum. All the technical talk goes right over my head but I'm still loving it
    If it goes over your head.. that means i didn't explain it well enough.. sorry.. if you want to know more details.. just ask..
    i've been working with CNC machines for 20 years now, so i'm quite familiar with it.. i have worked with all kinds of CNC Systems, including, but not limited to Ferrari, Fanuc, Heidenhain and Fagor., those last two are my personal favourites, because of their possibilities and ease of use.
    I never had any training for the Fagor controls, i just read the manual and figured it out myself.

    there are those days.. when you get up early, and get a lot of work done.. today is such a day.. woke up at 7:30, did some programming and by 9:30 i had the machine running.. i made 24 parts today!



    and here they are...

  27. #77
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    A lot goes over my head, I wouldn't worry about your explanations. They're very well written to be fair and you make it sound almost simple. It's very enjoyable to read. Just promise to never stop. Ever.

  28. #78
    Grand Master Carlton-Browne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arie Kabaalstra View Post
    I make my designs in 3D, with a program called GeoMagic, it is similar to programs like AutoDesk Inventor, or Solidworks, but less expensive, that's how i have professional 3D CAD from the time i was still a hobbyist.
    The Fileformats of this program are AD_PRT and AD_ASM files, PRT stands for "Part" and ASM stands for "Assembly"

    With this program, you create 3D models of parts, and you can put the parts together in an assembly. just like in real life.. the beauty part of it is.. you can make parts fit other parts, even if the dimensions change, the entire Assembly is then re-calculated.

    I also make Watchmakers workbenches, i started with a bench for myself, and sold 13 others sofar.. my design is made up so that the main dimensions are stored in a separate table, when i alter the dimensions, a new 3D model is generated, and drawings are automatically updated.
    So when someone "orders" a workbench, i just ask for the desired dimensions, i enter those in the table, and re-generate the drawings, so i can order materials to the correct sizes..

    From the 3D models, i can "Project" flat drawings, which i use to program the machines, the lathe is programmed at the machine, by just "Slicing up" the part in easy to program operations, which are programmed as "Cycles" the Mill on the other had is mostly programmed with CAM software, making the program from a 2D drawing, or directly from a 3D STL file.
    Thanks.

  29. #79
    Master Tazmo61's Avatar
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    Excellent thread , very interesting .

  30. #80
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    I find these kind of threads absolutely fascinating.

    Truly impressed with your machining skills. Its one thing for the machine to actually make the cuts, but another fully understanding the limitations and programming appropriately. Small milling cutters break so easily!

    Could you show some examples of the tools you use for case finishing please? Especially how you achieve a uniform brushed finish.

    I wish you the very best of luck with this new venture.

  31. #81
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    Brilliant , at last something stimulating original and someone whose enthusiasm for his subject is infectious . Sir you are to be congratulated and as others have said please continue sharing this , hopefully you rewards will flood in when the time is right .
    It will be richly deserved for all the pleasure you are currently supplying.


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  32. #82
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    What a great thread - it is fascinating to see what you can produce OP and get just a glimpse of the work and skill that has gone in to being able to do it.

    Plus, every time I see your TZ designation of 'Apprentice' I smile a wry smile!

    ATB

    Jon

  33. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by MartC View Post
    I find these kind of threads absolutely fascinating.

    Truly impressed with your machining skills. Its one thing for the machine to actually make the cuts, but another fully understanding the limitations and programming appropriately. Small milling cutters break so easily!

    Could you show some examples of the tools you use for case finishing please? Especially how you achieve a uniform brushed finish.

    I wish you the very best of luck with this new venture.
    Small milling cutters (D<2mm) don't have a lifespan.. they have an expiry date

    I have milled my indices with a 1mm Solid Carbide Endmill, but no regular endmill, i buy from the same company that supplies the swiss watch industry.

    If i want to do the same work.. i need the same tools.

    for "profiling" the sides of the cases i use long 3 and 4 mm endmills.. solid carbide of course, and i take shallow cuts, especially the last few tenths of millimeters.

    Then, depending on the desired finish, i "grind" the circumference with a drum-sander, i make my own sanding drums, by glueing 400 grit sandpaper on a piece of PVC Pipe that i clamp in an old lathe.

    The Instrument 3 case, is finished on a diamond lap, a metal plate covered in diamond, but to get an even finish, pressure and direction are of key importance, it takes quite a while to "master" that technique.
    For the top surfaces for instance, i have to press the case evenly onto the lap, and pull it with a straight move across the lap, to get an even surface., the same goes for the lugs, but this is harder because the surface is way smaller.

    As long as i do not master all techniques described in



    this book.. i consider myself an apprentice..a skilled one maybe, but still an apprentice.

  34. #84
    Today i tackled a task i knew that was coming.

    The motor of my Boley lathe was getting "old" it was an old sewingmachine motor, with a fixed speed.
    a few days ago, it ran out of carbon brushes.. i.e. the brushes were totally worn out, just like the bronze bearings of the motor.

    Exit the old one, entrance the new!.

    I had a polishing machine, but i noticed that the motor of that machine was held in place on the bast by means of 2 screws.
    So.. i undid those screws, and took measurements of the motor, position of the screws, diameter, shaft thickness.. the main dimensions so to speak.

    and i drew it up in my 3D cad, i had already drawn the lathe in 3D, so i could "slot" the motor right in, and from there i could design a fitting way to fix the new motor.



    by means of 2 motor support plates., a piece of 10 mm barstock is drilled to attach the motor to the support plates with two screws.
    Another piece of barstock is put in the bottom holes, and it has an M6 hole drilled and tapped throug, for an adjusterbolt.
    the last holes are filled with a "pivot-rod" to allow the motor and support plates to rotate, to tension the belt.



    Things left to do: turn a knob for the adjuster, and redo wiring to the potentiometer for variable spindle speed.

    I will add some extra length to the wiring, and incorporate a switch to start the machine, the potentiometer will only be there for setting and adjusting the speed.

  35. #85
    Craftsman Morrissey's Avatar
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    What a talent matey,

    Must be very rewarding


    Mozza

  36. #86


    It is indeed very rewarding..
    imagine being able to choose from a number of watches you made, or restored yourself:

    From left to right,
    - Pontiac Memodate, i got it with a cracked crystal, so i turned a new crystal myself.
    - P1lot One, a 43mm titanium flieger with a sandwich dial, i made 52 of those
    - DumeT Instrument 2 prototype, my first titanium watch, ETA 2763 Handwind, Aluminium/Titanium sandwich dial
    - Dumet Instrument 1 prototype,my first home-made watch, ATE 2763, Anodised aluminium case, brass dial and hands
    - Subdelta Periscope, work for another watchbrand, i made 25 of those, Raketa SUB 2624 automatic movement, one hand 24 hours

    and in a while i can add the Instrument 3, the new instrument 2, and the titanium instrument 1 to this collection..

  37. #87
    Master SteveHarris's Avatar
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    Great thread OP. I love threads like this.

    Could you imagine all of us on TZ agreeing a design for a watch to get it built

  38. #88
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    I always wanted to be a toolmaker. Love that diver, you should keep in touch with the designer of that one.
    One question; how the hell does someone with your skillset lose their job?!?

  39. #89
    Funny thing is.. my skillset was always one step ahead of the required skills for any job i had at any given time.

    When i started working, i was a welder/mechanic, but i already built a hydraulic discbrake system (calipers, discs and pump) for my Minibike.

    Then, i became a toolmaker and i made ever smaller parts for my hobby projects, like models of alloy car wheels for scale model kits in 1:24 scale.

    How i can be out of a job?.. well.. that would be a political discussion.. let's not do that here..but le'me put it this way.. if the Netherlands had a government working for the people.. i wouldn't be out of a job..

    Ah.. well.. i will just MAKE myself a job.. who's gonna stop me anyway?

  40. #90
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    thank you for sharing your journey...! i hope you will continue to give us insights to this very fascinating world of case/parts-making! : )

  41. #91
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    This is better than "Boys Room" !!!!

  42. #92
    My Journey has been a "bumpy ride" until now.. i really loved my job as a toolmaker.. i'd rather not go into details as to why i left that job.

    anyway.. today has been "smooth sailing"

    I started today with cleaning up the lathe, because i have been turning steel, aluminium and acetal last week.. i have to clean the machine everytime i'm going to machine Titanium.

    Because i sell my titanium swarf to the scrapyard, there must be no contamination with other metals.



    So.. after only a matter of minutes.. the machine was filling up with chips again.. only titanium this time..

    and in the mean time.. while the machine was happily cutting away on titanium..



    I took a brush, and cleaned out the Mill also.. so when turning is done, i can mill the cases, and have only titanium chips in the chiptrays..

    Now.. time for bed.. and one step closer to the finishing of no less than 4 watches.. all due in 2½ weeks time.. so.. still a lot to do..

  43. #93
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    This is epic mate! Thanks for posting.

  44. #94
    While the lathe is cutting away happily down in the workshop, upstairs in my atelier i'm working on a design for a "Cradle"



    This will enable me to machine the lugs on the Instrument 3 cases.

    in the hole on the big plate, i can fit collets to mount the watchcases.

  45. #95
    "Gett'n busy"...

    I turned the Instrument 1 and instrument 3 cases this morning.. now it is time to put the instrument 2 case on the lathe, and the instrument 1 and 3 cases on the mill


  46. #96
    This morning i started with programming the contour of the Instrument 1-39mm case..



    I then put it on the machine, happily chipping away on the titanium.



    And this is what it looks like on the screen of the CNC Controller.



    And some 7 minutes into the job, the mill was already working the lugs..

    it used to take me up to 45 minutes to mill out a case, but thanks to a new machining method in my CAM software, it is now down to 22 minutes.. that is twice as fast.. i like that..

  47. #97
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    From a mechanical engineer, huge respect for your patience and attention to detail. Very impressive.

  48. #98
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    Keep it up!!

    Amazing!!

    I think you might have to have your own section on TZ😳😳
    This is superb to read and watch!! I'd love to see some time lapse stuff of the whole processes involved in all this stuff!!
    Big big respect for being able to make the bits but even more respect for being able to make the tools that make them😳

    Keep the posts coming and start others for whatever other projects you have coming up I'm sure everyone would be interested!!

    I'm guessing you may get a few requests now though and I'm sure your too busy with work and your own stuff!!

    Chris

  49. #99


    Smokin'!

    My Own section?.. Got one.. it's called website..
    and then there's Facebook and instagram too..

    This is the Dumet Watches Instrument 1-39mm case, right now the Instrument 2-42mm case is on the machine, getting a similar pattern..

    How did i come to this pattern you might wonder, well.. that's a "Happy accident", when i made my first watchcase, i didn't have a working lathe, so i had to "Dream up" something.

    To get a conical shape, i thought: "i can just Ramp down from the top, on the desired angle, and then smooth out the case.. but.. it came off the mill looking like this.. my father particularly liked it, and he said "Keep it that way.. it's something no other watch i have seen has.. "

    So.. indeed, i kept it that way.. and made the next watchcase the same way.. it's like a "trademark" so to speak.

  50. #100
    I just finished milling the outer contour of the Instrument 2-42 Case..



    i'm now again back to the workshop, to mill the flutes.

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