Reply With QuoteOriginally Posted by 744ER
Yep the diatribe from 744ER had me saying wow too. It never ceases to amaze me that we still have luddites alive and well in the 21st century.
As are many cars TBH.
Yep the diatribe from 744ER had me saying wow too. It never ceases to amaze me that we still have luddites alive and well in the 21st century.
If you want to turn it in to that type of post feel free however your words are no different to any other Luddite who I’ve experienced in the past few years when talking about EVs. Your problem is that you clearly have a penchant for the conspiracy theory, as with most EV haters do. They read a small snippet on FB or some dumbass publication that meets their/your criteria and then go out to find similar publications to dumb down even more.
I don't need to find numerous publications created by Nostradumarse telling us about the future, I'm quite able to logically go through whats happening in this country and the world to realise that the burning of petrol and diesel will come to an end…whether you like it or not
The fact that you use Greta in your post only shows how absolutely f**k ing spitting feathers you are over the whole EV thing…do you go to bed at night hoping the next day that some car park will catch on fire caused by an EV? Bet the latest one was a bit of a kick in the nuts for you wasn't it?
Stepping over the insults for a minute, it’s precisely those developing economies that will suffer the most from climate change, and the next oil crisis, and there will surely be one.
Much of the developed world spends money on vanity/luxury purchases, and it’s unsustainable, you don’t need to be Greta to understand that.
Oil is critical to the way we live in developed nations, for all sorts of reasons beyond road fuels.
If demand for oil is climbing, then it seems the height of idiocy to burn it in road vehicles, especially when perfectly viable alternatives are available and arriving in ever bigger numbers, and getting cheaper. How much of the increase in demand is down to road fuel requirements as developing nations car ownership and use increases? We also need to reduce our dependence on energy from often unfriendly state actors, why is the answer to carry on exactly as we are?
Perhaps put confirmation bias to one side for a bit in your investment research and look up the data that shows that far from dying BEV manufacturing and sales are growing. It’s a decades long transition, but one that needs to be undertaken. Oh, and BEVs haven’t been subsidised in the U.K. for a few years now, and in any case pales into insignificance compared to the massive subsidies enjoyed by the oil industry.
Ha ha well I clearly touched some nerves here.
Guys there is no "transition" going on. Climate change is just a huge scam and cash grab, don't fall for it.
Thanks for posting, that is very, very interesting...though only managed the first 13 minutes, off for a walk now will watch the rest later.
Well, it would be, that’s what confirmation bias is. I’ve seen Mark Mills commenting on the same issues a few times before, which led me to seek out who he was and why he’s saying the things he is.
The key is to look at the other side of the same coin, like this article giving views on the same messages he shares on all his YouTube and elsewhere videos.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021...ng-renewables/
It actually makes a valid point that we’ve shifted away from arguments about whether climate change is actually happening (it obviously is) to why it doesn’t really matter anyway (it obviously does).
What I never quite understand is what the alternatives could be, other than just carry on as we are. Why would some people be saying that I wonder?
Mark Mills claims to live in the ‘real world’, just not sure it’s this one.
To be honest, EVs biggest problem is that some people just can’t seem to separate a car merely fuelled by electricity from the wider challenges our societies face.
Some people have made EVs the evil poster child for renewable energy, when actually they’re just a means of doing something we already do in a more sustainable and less damaging way.
I’ve said I don’t know how many times that oil is important to the world as we know it, we depend on it, but one day it will run out, and then what? If we can restrict using it for things where there is no viable alternative, then seems like a good idea to me, as somebody with no vested interest financial or otherwise in the oil or renewables sectors.
Even if the electricity used to charge EVs isn’t 100% renewable, the benefits in carbon reduction and local air quality is tangible, I’m genuinely mystified sometimes as to why anybody who knows what they’re talking about thinks they’re somehow a bad thing.
Even if EVs never become the dominant form of personal powered transport, albeit I think they will, de-carbonising as much of our electricity grid as possible would benefit all of us hugely anyway.
We got to the state we’re in incrementally, and we’ll get out of it in the same way, with a bit of luck. For our kids and grandkids futures, I certainly hope so anyway, more of the same isn’t going to work.
Anyone who says climate change is a scam instantly loses credibility with me. Just look out the window, apply some common sense, wake up and realise we have finite resources on a very small planet and since we started pumping all kinds of rubbish into the atmosphere it has had a negative effect. I don’t need to watch any documentaries or hold any political viewpoint to realise that is the case!
That lazily written, 3 year old, factually incorrect, nonsense article invalidates itself just by denoting nuclear energy as something negative...
I would advise you to look at the stock prices of Orsted, Vestas and Siemens Gamesa.... Wind power is a fools errand and inherently not profitable. The world best investor agrees with me... "Buffet told an audience in Omaha, Nebraska recently. "For example, on wind energy, we get a tax credit if we build a lot of wind farms. That's the only reason to build them. They don't make sense without the tax credit."
Its said that only 20% of people have the ability to have a contrarian mindset... I've always been one of them but it took me a few decades to realise that.
It's very comfortable to run with the pack, conform to the general narratives and concensus... but if youre a lemming heading off the edge of a cliff, it will only be comfortable until you hit the ground...
More videos worth watching for those with a more, contrarian mindset... :)
https://youtu.be/gI5Avnh_ToY?si=Nbk0IJVKFhkEGG2j
100% this.
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Plenty of snow on the ground here, nothings changed since i was a kid. If you form your opinion by looking out the window... you're beyond help I think.
Warren Buffett was years ago you halfwit
He’s investing billions in wind farms
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/warre...V_a0rRJ0mzh4dH
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Without trading insults, you’re clearly a bit thick. Sadly there are quite a lot of people out there just like you, which is a major reason why the human race is in such a pickle. I give us a couple of hundred years tops unless we perform a miracle U turn, which seems unlikely. Carry on fiddling while Rome burns. Neither you or I will bear the brunt. Peace out.
FIFY
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Oh yeah, what about the other 75% huh? ;-)
If only everything in the world was measured by making money, we wouldn’t have a problem. Unfortunately, it’s more complicated than that. I’m sure Tesla’s stock price told a story at one point too.
Investing in oil exploration and drilling didn’t make financial sense either without government investment and tax incentives/subsidies, but anything can be achieved given the will.
You’ll obviously keep doing you, reassuring yourself by shouting in your own echo chamber, meantime I’m reassured things are changing, the money on the table will see to that.
The more things change, the more uncomfortable it feels, I get it. It’s possible though to see the viability and positive benefits of EVs (which this thread used to be about) without having to become a zealot and take one side or the other. Where’s the balance gone in the world?
Everybody is seemingly on transmit, and almost nobody on receive.
This seems as good a place to expose my ignorance as anywhere else...
I've recently bought a PHEV but have no comprehension of the equivalence of £/kWh with £/litre combined with mpg.
I can't charge at home but can charge at work for 17p/kWh
On Saturday I parked in a supermarket next to a parkrun I was doing and paid (I think) 70p/kWh
This Saturday - different parkrun and the chargers in the carpark are 30p/kWh
My car is set to a driving mode that will use battery first (unless I floor it) so I've used very little petrol since having it - done ~200 miles, petrol range has gone down 20 miles.
Obviously there are loads of variables (and I should have researched this before I bought the car) but is there a cut-off charging price where I'd be better off not charging and driving on petrol only with a flat battery. How would I go about calculating this? Optimistically, has anyone done this work already and published it on a website that says for car X when petrol is £Y/l, charging makes sense if it is <Zp/kWh?
The easiest way I look at it is my BEV (which makes things simpler) has a 75kWH battery and its range is about 240 miles.
Therefore a full charge (Octopus Intelligent) costs 75 x 7.5 = 5.62 to cover 200-240 miles.
If you know the battery capacity and also the range you get on full electric that will give you the cost of the electric side of things.
Or I suppose - do a few hundred miles and see what it has cost you ?
For a PHEV it must be a trickier calculation although I would think the smaller battery means you don't need a cherger but I would expect an EV tariff would be worth looking at still.
In a similar vein I’ve had my EV for nearly a month and no idea yet what it’s costing me to run!
This is down to a few factors. I have a home charger - never used anything else - but I’m still awaiting a smart meter. I’ve also moved to another energy supplier so I can take advantage of cheap overnight tariffs but until I get the smart meter I’m on their 29p per kw/h tariff (which will be 7p when I’ve got the new meter).
To confuse things further, energy prices have just gone up on almost the day I switched providers. Now in the cold snap the range indicated has dropped significantly, from ok to pretty rubbish (although it suits my usage as I have the charger and don’t usually make long journeys and if I do we have a second petrol car). I only charge to 80% for my usage as the manufacturer suggests, but last night I topped it up from 60 to 80% and the meter - now I’ve input the new supplier manually through the app - indicated it had cost me £13 to add about 40 miles of range. Ok, when the smart meter arrives it cuts that price by 75%, but at the moment in cold weather on 30p per kWh I don’t think it’s any cheaper than diesel. If I was relying on public chargers I’d be concerned I’d made a big mistake tbh. Much easier in an ICE to know you get eg 500 miles out of £90 diesel pretty much regardless of the weather. 4 weeks in and not got a clue - I await my first electricity bill with trepidation!!
I have no idea about range or what mileage I’m getting per kWh. I just drive it and plug it in when it’s low.
I’m tracking the energy usage on the home charger which I input the electricity price into. You can also set future prices and it’ll automatically change over.
I have two metres and use the night one to charge so it’s cheaper. No plans to go to a smart metre or special EV tariff.
This cost will be for approx 6k miles in 2023. Some flex for public charging but not much.
I guess that's the answer - do enough on electric only to get a view of the real world miles/kWh then enough on petrol only to work out real world £/mile. Then I can work out what kWh price is better value that petrol.
I suspect your calculation is a bit flawed. IIRC, you have a Cupra with a c.60kWH battery? This means that topping from 60% to 80% should use c.12kWH to do the 40 miles you mention and the the cost will be anything from 84p (cheap home tariff), £3.48 (your current tariff), or even £9.00 (if you fill up at a high-speed motorway unit). This gives you a cost per mile in current conditions of 2.1p (cheap), 8.7p (current), 22.5 (expensive). As an equivalent, a 50mpg diesel car at current prices will cost about 13.8p to run.
All of this means that it's massively cheaper to run an EV from cheap home electricity, about half the cost of a diesel car at normal rates, and significantly more expensive if you only ever filled your EV at high-speed motorway units. But who would do that?
This about sums it up. ^^
If you calculate the pence per mile at 3 miles/kwhr and the same for 4m/kwhr, the true cost is likely to be somewhere in between.
As LBC says though, using electricity at 70p/kwhr or more will always be more than petrol/diesel and something you should never do with your PHEV. Even at 30p/kwhr, it may not be cost effective to charge.
Yep, I think that's about right - higher-speed driving in wintertime sees me get 3.5m/kWH, slower summer driving is closer to 4.3. Average across my ownership has been 3.9.
20% of your usable Born battery is around 11.5kWh, so allowing even 15% for charging losses it will have cost around £3.85?
Winter consumption should be around 3miles per kWh, so you’d achieve around 35 miles, or around 11 pence per mile.
Equivalent to a good diesel then.
At your future rate it would be circa 3 pence per mile.
The best thing you can do with any Plug In hybrid car is plug it in.
As you’re finding, the battery and motor are a ‘fuel multiplier’ and stretch a gallon far further than you’d get just running it as an ICE.
That said, paying public charging rates of 70p per kWh is at the extreme end, not sure what PHEV you have but that’s circa 28p per mile.
Mind you, charging your battery using petrol isn’t exactly cheap either, the car with an indicated 0% battery will likely start trying to top it up when able.
Topping off the battery using the workplace charging sound the way to go, circa 8p per mile or thereabouts?
Just driving my car it said my consumption past 30 miles was 333 Wh/mile so using that it would suggest 1 KwH = 3 miles so 2.5p/mile (at 7.5p IO rate)
The important thing is to charge at home on an EV tarriff as it can make a 10x factor to your running costs.
Charging needs will dictate if you need the additional cost of an EV charger or not.
I've just done some 'back of the fag packet' calculations based on what others have reported as 'real world' electric range and petrol-only mpg and reckon the cutoff point is ~37p/kWh for me. Warmer weather and that will change a bit, petrol prices go/down and it will obviously change it too but I reckon
- 17p/kWh at work - no brainer
- 30p/kWh at parkrun B - almost certainly in my favour but if I've miscalulated there won't be much in it
- 70p/kWh at parkrun A - won't be doing that again!
I guess this explains why the chargers at the local Tesco (44p) and Aldi (85p!) never seem to be busy.
I wish I could but I have no drive so no option but to run the charging cable across a busy but not very well-lit pavement. I know 'cable protectors' are a thing and a guy on the other side of the road does it but the pub is on my side of the road so 75% of the people walk up my side and 95% of the tipsy walk down my side.
Looks like I should have utilised that hard-fought grade B Maths‘O’ level! - thanks for the input, off to drive home now, might put it into Cupra mode to celebrate!
Plug the car in at 11.30pm after pub closing time and clear it away at 7.30am when you wake up to go to work. All the cheap leccy is overnight, and there is usually very little footfall, especially if the pub is then closed.
The cable protectors usually have a couple of channels, so place some outdoor electric fairy lights down one channel. The top yellow surface of cable protector will the shine brightly in the dark.
The cable protector police will shortly be along to advise that a wheelchair user crossing at 2am in the morning will have his/her life ruined.
I must admit that 1 month into EV ownership and I stick by my initial hunch that I wouldn’t consider an EV unless I had space for a home charger on my drive. I tend to top up the car quite regularly and this has meant that I suffer no range anxiety and once I have the right smart meter etc I’ll be paying 7p per kWh. I used to live in a house with no driveway and I wouldn’t feel comfortable running a cable across a path - the council where I lived in Wimbledon would put a warning letter with a proposed fine through your door if a shrub in your garden extended a couple of inches onto a path, I just don’t think they’d tolerate it. I’d also have expected the charging flap to be regularly wrenched off by a passing idiot tbh! - and any issue with potentially obstructing a pavement isn’t anything to do with a parking police, to me it’s just common sense. At a time of increased inclusivity, filling the pavements with obstructions for the partially sighted and wheelchair users seems like a less than ideal solution. It’s probably not an issue if a few people do it, but fast forward 10 years and there would be a trip hazard every 10 feet up every terraced street in the country? At the moment I can understand it might be an innocuous solution here and there but it’s not scaleable imho
I think you make a lot of good, valid points.
id agree with that, an ev with your own drive way and charging is very convenient, there are many compromises without.
As usual, it depends on what you use a car for and how many miles you drive.
My Father lives in a small flat 40m from his car parking space, no way of reasonably and sensibly getting a cable to the car to charge it.
But, he drives about 20-30 miles a week, so an hour a week on a 7kW charger somewhere would be plenty. I say drives, he can’t now as he’s still being treated for neck cancer and has his license suspended whilst he has radiotherapy, so he’s covering most of that in a mobility scooter!
I would find it a pain (and more expensive) to have to charge exclusively on public chargers, I drive nearly 500 miles a week though.
Horses for courses and all that, but no doubt access to home charging is a definite plus for EV use and ownership.
It can’t be beyond the wit of mankind to be able to put an electricity supply near to where people park cars for up to 23 hours a day though, nor how to administer a payment system linked back to your home electricty supply tariff.
Again, solutions are being worked, but I suppose it’s all about timing and having the demand to justify investing in the supply side.
I used the Braintree version of this hub the other week, very good, and reasonably priced on my Elli EV charging subscription, a solution for once a week rapid charging for some.
Gatwick Airport electric vehicle charging station opens https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-67912833
There’s lots of powered street furniture in built up areas as well, with a bit of effort it can be turned into EV charging.
BT Group to turn old street cabinets into electric vehicle charging points https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67873890
Sounds significantly expensive... wit ain´t exactly cheap or abundant.
Wouldn´t a taxi for your Dad, sorry to hear btw, be safer, warmer- drier, pleasanter at least for the old boy, than a mobility scooter...there´s no awards for suffering.
Last edited by Passenger; 11th January 2024 at 10:43.
As soon as the 2% BIK disappears, I’m back to ICE.
I only drive an EV as HMRC bribes me to do so.
Last edited by noTAGlove; 11th January 2024 at 10:28.
Seems a reasonable pov under the circumstances.
It’s happening; EV charge points are springing up everywhere.Sounds significantly expensive... wit ain´t exactly cheap or abundant.
When I started driving an EV eight years ago (in rural East Sussex), I had the option of three rapid chargers (50kw) and about the same number of 7kw chargers.
Now they are everywhere and I have plenty of choice of where to charge, should I need to.
Agreed, it’s still inconvenient for those without off street parking but there are solutions, some already having being unveiled and no doubt others in the planning stages.
Tooks mentioned billing direct to your home supply but I think it’s more likely to be linked to the car with, probably a monthly bill to the owner.
Aye they´re becoming more abundant even here...but to spend your own money, if you have to, guessing 35 k upwards, say you´ve no drive... only to be further inconvenienced, plausibly at the mercy of an additional monthly bill which could be charged at whatever the vendor decides per KWH...I dunno, I wouldn´t like fancy risking all that money- aggro...I´d wait and see how it ALL looks towards the end of the decade I think...also solar panels might become more efficient over time, see where the solar clad car idea goes.
Last edited by Passenger; 11th January 2024 at 10:54.
Thanks for the kind words, and yes Ubers are an option, although he’s clinically vulnerable so he’s not too keen on sharing enclosed spaces with folks.Sounds significantly expensive... wit ain´t exactly cheap or abundant.
Wouldn´t a taxi for your Dad, sorry to hear btw, be safer, warmer- drier, pleasanter at least for the old boy, than a mobility scooter...there´s no awards for suffering.
He quite enjoys the scooter, it’s still personal mobility and he’s only a mile or two out of town, and the range is circa 25 miles and it charges in his hallway.
He was bemoaning the fact that cash points were in decline or starting to charge daft fees the other day (like a lot of older people he likes cash!). Reminded me that they never used to be a thing either and the first time I was able to take out my own money from somewhere that wasn’t my bank was quite a thing!
Last edited by Tooks; 11th January 2024 at 11:03.
Yep, I am with you there for a company car - it becomes a no brainer.
However, if that concession is withdrawn (which I doubt it will be, it may just be reduced over time)...then the market for EVs will change hugely and I suspect there will need to be better lease deals out there than there are currently, or they simply will not sell anwhere near the numbers they do now.
It’s like any government initiative, it will stay in place until such time as it has achieved its goal. The switch to EVs is continuing to gain momentum and will continue to do so. By the time the BIK initiative is removed, it will make little or no difference to EV sales.
WRT solar panels running EVs, the amount of solar energy landing on the earth (or solar panel) is small relative to the amount of energy needed to run an electric motor so even at 100% efficiency, it’s unlikely that solar panels will ever be enough to run an EV without an additional power supply.
But you already pay whatever the vendor decides for your petrol or diesel.
True but the car new cost considerably less than 35 k and the gas in the tank, approx 54 quid to fill up at present, does about 800 km when full, over 50 mpg...anxiety, compromise free...if it ain´t broke don´t fix it, I guess.
I'm with you on that.
However, driving a petrol or diesel car now seems like a step backwards in terms of comfort and performance. I think many of the anti-EV brigade just havent driven one.
Are EV car seats made of better more comfy materials than ICE then, the plastics more luxe? Surely performance is limited by speed bumps, speed limits, volume of road users, omnipresent camera´s.., ev curious...?
Hugely dependant on the car of choice obvs.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I ran mine for most of the summer on solar alone. It is a second car admittedly but that covered the station commute and weekends running kids to clubs etc.
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