I may get shouted down for this, but here goes....
Can we all do something about the mindless, unthinking racism in some of the posts in this particular part of the forum?
I've just had a flip through some of the recent threads, and I've been horrified by the comments that some people have been coming up with about Muslims and Islam.
Kill em all and let Allah sort em out.we should put the shits right up these fuckwits starting by handing them the hacked off heads of the women they want released.I could go on.....True that many muslims already get drunk and do this stuff, then just deny it (lying is a way of life there).
Muslim's don't have a lock on appalling behaviour, despite what we are told by the media. Extremism (of any flavour) will result in the same kind of terrible human rights abuses. Just think of the Russians in Chechnya, the Serbs in Boznia-Hertzogovinia, and the Americans in Abu Ghriab.
To condemn and entire region or religion for the activities of a tiny, but visible, minority is ignorant and dangerous. The killings of hostages in Iraq have been condemned by right-thinking people of ALL religions.
Please don't mistake the hostage takers for spokesmen for their religion. It's not about religion.
I'll leave it there. Reply, don't reply, tell me to f**k off if you like. But try to consider your words a bit, please, so that you don't sound like an extremist.
Walter.
I stay out of anything overly opinionated (politics, for the main one, rhino strap discussions, for another :P) becuase of this reason. I agree in this case that whilst we're all grown men and can handle ourselves and not take too much offense from others, we should also maintain some minimum levels of decorum. :)
Ming
I mainly go here for lighthearted talk about watches. One of the attractions of tz-uk is the lack of a "Big Brother" and I don't mind quietly skipping over threads that are too strong for my stomach.
That said, I must support your call for a more civil tone. Some of the banter comes across as ill-informed and dismissive of Islam and the many different cultures of its followers. Surely, the points could be made with less fire and brimstone? :)
Airman on Jürgen NATO and Persian Poetry
Gert
Nice response, Gert - thanks very much. Thanks too, Ming.
W.
Originally Posted by Qatar-wol
I could go on.....True that many muslims already get drunk and do this stuff, then just deny it (lying is a way of life there).
Muslim's don't have a lock on appalling behaviour, despite what we are told by the media. Extremism (of any flavour) will result in the same kind of terrible human rights abuses. Just think of the Russians in Chechnya, the Serbs in Boznia-Hertzogovinia, and the Americans in Abu Ghriab.
To condemn and entire region or religion for the activities of a tiny, but visible, minority is ignorant and dangerous. The killings of hostages in Iraq have been condemned by right-thinking people of ALL religions.
Please don't mistake the hostage takers for spokesmen for their religion. It's not about religion.
I'll leave it there. Reply, don't reply, tell me to f**k off if you like. But try to consider your words a bit, please, so that you don't sound like an extremist.
Walter.[/quote:lctmhfnx]
Well, at the risk of getting a few more of you angry at me, here goes. I frankly find it odd that you choose to start a sticky and throwing out the term "racism" or "racist" instead of posting a facts based rebuttal within the thread.
The kill 'em all thing was not meant seriously. Perhaps a :twisted: or :wink: was in order.
The lying one was also mine and sorry that is pretty well documented, at least in Iraq. U.S. soldiers have documented that they routinely find drunken Iraqi muslims and when they take them home everyone denies drinking because it is forbidden in Islam and they can't admit it and to save face they cover it up. That's lying folks.
I was talking about the cultification of a major religion, not about anyone's race, so how can that be racism? There's PLENTY of racism coming from the Middle East and from Muslim Imams and clerics to make anything that I say or write look like mere childs play. Just check the many ghastly things written about Jews and Christians DAILY in the Arab press.
I think it is a big problem that not enough "right thinking" muslims have said anything negative about the beheadings. Some do, but the majority is still appallingly silent on it.
I merely state this, from the Koran itself. I'll let their holy book do the talking.
There's PLENTY more where that came from... from the condoning of the killing of Apostates, to this global jihad madness that is allowed to go pretty much unchallenged by the so called silent majority. I read translations of much from that region so I am not speaking from a position of total ignorance. I know that there are "liberals" over there, but their writings are falling on deaf or too timid to make a difference ears."3.112" : Abasement is made to cleave to them (the Jews) wherever they are
found, except under a covenant with Allah and a covenant with men, and they
have become deserving of wrath from Allah, and humiliation is made to cleave
to them; this is because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and
slew the prophets unjustly; this is because they disobeyed and exceeded the
limits.
"5.51" : O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for
friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them
for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the
unjust people.
And let me state further that I DO NOT hate ALL muslims. I realize that there are good and bad in every faith, but if you look around the world at most of the major conflicts raging today, you can find Islam, or more to the point muslims who cannot live peacefully with their neighbors, near the root of it.
I'm sorry if I come across as angry, but 3000 of my fellow countrymen were murdered in cold blood, by muslims, a few short years ago mere miles from where I type this and they are planning more of the same.
I'm dreadfully sorry if that offends the peecee sensitivities of a few who blissfully wish to keep their heads firmly planted in the sand Vis à Vie the problem of global Jihad against the West.
I thought that discussion of that sort was welcomed in the informal non watch area, but frankly my love of watches overrides my need to discuss this stuff with others scattered about this planet. I always thought that dialog and discussion were something that let people get this stuff out and in the end maybe understand eachother better. After all, instead of complaining you can site facts to dispute what I post and in the process, who knows, maybe change my mind or soften my stance. Unfortunately the SOP by the global "Left" these days is to guilt the non P.C. party into shutting up and shouting "racism".
And here I thought the abuses of the Taliban and the writings of radical Islamo-fascists were well documented and accepted as fact. I guess some people still don't believe it. I guess all of those WW2 Holocost victims' bodies were truly just made of paper mache....
If the majority here find these topics distasteful then let it be known and I'll refrain since like I said if my watch related posts will be met with the cold shoulder due to my political beliefs or nationality then I would rather not talk politics. I wasn't the only guy posting that stuff so I thought it was well within bounds, and since it met with some agreement by several other members I figured all was ok.
--- added on 30th Sept 2004----
Let me edit this and just add here something that may make you understand that I am a civil guy after all. I am not saying that these voiced concerns are anti American in nature. Not saying that at all, but I choose to use something along those lines to illustrate this point. My entire wife's family (including my wife) is on the political "Left" and their views are probably closer to what many of you think as opposed to how I think. My mother in law is originally from Belfast and is a classic European liberal thinker, all for big government and "Labour" type policies. I argue constantly with one of my brothers in law about politics. This guy HATES George Bush and was against the Iraq War from day one and I'd say disagrees with me vehemently on about 90% of the issues. 90%!! But we still get along fine otherwise and it has never come to blows. We're basically friends. Almost every ill in the world is America's fault to him and please understand that right now America is politically polarized at almost 50%-50% between those like me who favor a preemptive military policy - meeting Jihad with force - and those who do not. I also remember a discussion with one of my wife's visiting Irish cousins who is likewise very vocally and firmly against current U.S. policy and this President. We both left the discussion with all limbs intact. I don't see why in spite of political differences that we still can't get along otherwise. When entering "George & Dragon" the first time I read something to the effect of "discuss ANY subject over a pint", and upon finding some politically charged thread my interest was peaked and I jumped in. Aside from there being differences of opinion on politics and policies I didn't think that anything said, especially when usually backed up by news quotes and real data, would be the cause of offense. Like I said earlier, the "kill 'em all" comment was not meant seriously and sometimes anger gets the best of me. I never claimed to be perfect. Believe me if I didn't care about alternate opinions or about what people in other countries thought I wouldn't be hanging out here. I genuinely value opposing input even if I disagree with it. I'll try to be more mindful, however, of how I write certain things so as not to come off as overly bloodthirsty. I hope that that is sufficient to diffuse any ill feelings and restore the overwhelmingly friendly tone.
--T
Like most right thinking people, I am no fan of mindless PC.
However, this forum is not, to my knowledge, restricted to watch-lovers in the US and UK. There is an international audience for every post and numerous regular posters are located all over the globe.
I don't think Walter is attempting to stifle free speech, nor should he, but I agree with his assertion that more carefully chosen words by the individuals who post on this forum might occasionally be welcome.
When I want to hear a rigorous assault on Islam, or, indeed, the thrashing out of any other emotive religious or political debate, I just switch on the TV, turn up the radio or buy the Daily Mail!
As far as I am aware, while this forum is thankfully free of oppressive moderation, it is primarily for the discussion of watches. It would be refreshing to see the 'George and Dragon' used for enjoyable banter and humour, rather than the occasional heartfelt and passionate, yet controversial, opinions that seem to have crept in.
Cheers,
Arnie
I agree with Walter. Extremists use this to justify their actions and making an extension to all who are born under the same religion is absurd. However if someone needs to say something about a topic, then he should say it. G&D is a part of the forum non-watch related and it had witnessed some violent debates in the past. We all are adults and I believe we all can handle an argument we do not agree with.
Well said Walter.
John.
"Well said"? I disagree.
Equating fraternity pranks played on convicts with genocidal acts? While the actions of my fellow soldiers *I write reluctantly* guarding the prisoners at Abu Ghraib were inexecusable, I would hardly equate them with:
1. Sawing a non-combatant's head off
2. Raping a non-combatant to death
3. Murdering an entire village, etc.
I wouldn't even equate them to the torture that occurred in Abu Ghraib when it was administered by the Ba'athist regime.
As Worlok has written above, "right-thinking" Muslims have NOT condemned the terrorist acts. If they have, it generally has been quiet and belated:
http://www.rltwatches.co.uk/forums/i...pic=5388&st=30
Again, as Worlok has written, it is about religion folks. You are fooling yourself if you think it's not. They appeal to Muslims, not Arabs or Persians or Kurds. They either are religious leaders or use religious leaders to shill. They employ mosques and holy sites as bases and havens. They cite scripture and fatwah, and they call for jihad against non-Muslims as an Evangelist might urge a follower to fight his inner demons.
All that said, I would agree that more decorum is required. I'm all for intelligent debate, discussion and even argument (with the use of lots of @#$%s and :angryfire: :blackeye: :evil: :cussing: ), but some of the statements Walter quoted above did take me aback - which was why I (like Ming) stayed out of it. I believe we can get our respective points across without resorting to insults, slander and hyperbole. Well, maybe a little hyperbole. And litoty :wink: .
I was with you Walter, until you fired back a harpoon under the guise of a plea for restraint. That was OB, IMHO.
BTW, as some of you know, I will soon be returning to Iraq. I'm happy to dedicate one year of my life to improving American-Iraqi relations and making the injured well, regardless of their religious affiliation.
The problem is that some people in this world want everyone to "just get along" no matter the cost. It's a pre-school way of thinking. If I just don't do anything this bully won't pick on me anymore. I'm sorry if people outside the US get offended by my thoughts and words, but this country has been offended by the words and actions of the rest of the world for the past 40 years. I am at the point that I don't care what anyone else thinks. Why are we expected to sit back and accept everything thrown at us? Why does everyone explode when we say one thing about someone else? And why is it that the rest of the world doesn't want us to defend ourselves? I don't want conflict with anyone. I would be perfectly happy living out my life in a small town in the mountains with a good woman and teaching martial arts without having to worry about anything.
This country has been attacked over, and over, and over for my entire life. From our embassy being overrun in Iran, to the USS Cole being attacked, to the WTC being attacked in 1993 and 2001. Many people have said that the difference was that the WTC is on US soil. But they are wrong. Anywhere the US colors fly is soveriegn US soil, including embassies in foriegn countries (and that is true for all countries, including in US borders). But most people have been so manipulated and conditioned by more and more leftist media and educators for the past 40 years. Now, if someone complains about ILLEGAL immigration they are called a racist! We have laws here. I fully welcome anyone that comes to this country legally. But it is the Democrats and the mainstream media in this country that have twisted that around.
Do you know that the price of a oil has gone up to $50 a barrel? If we invaded Iraq to steal their oil we're not stealing it fast enough.
I just heard that people are talking about whether or not it's a coincidence that all the hurricanes have been hitting Florida, where there was so much contoriversy about the last election! Do you know that President Clinton gave several thousand illegal immigrants citizenship just before that election? Gee, I wonder why? Do you know that he threw out several thousand absentee ballots, from American servicemen and women overseas in the 2000 election? Mine was one of those votes.
When is someone from the US going to apologise for NORAID?
What is NORAID? I am familiar only with NORAD, which hardly needs apologizing for ... :wink:
Cheers,
Martin ("Crusader")
I challenge you to find an American who knows what NORAID is. I'm sure some do but I never heard of them and my in-laws are Catholics from Northern Ireland so you'd think I would know about them. The only reason I know now is that I looked it up.
I thought that the Us Govt had, to my knowledge, kept a close eye on any group that funnels money into terror activities especially in the UK but you know as well as I do that terrorists in general are a sneaky bunch.
I, for the record, never supported any sort of bombings anywhere. If they just targeted military people while I don't support that at least one can say "well they consider it a war", but when you start to target civilians or civilian infrastructure you are a terrorist.
I don't want to get into the "troubles" in Northern Ireland but that situation is a *bit* different from the situation in the Middle East and I think one can make the argument that (and I'm not excusing what they have done) the IRA and the Protestant paramilitary groups never came close to the type of violence that Al Qaeda, for example, seeks to wreak (or have wrought) on civilian populations. I hate being put in the position of comparing and contrasting lethal potential or worse mistaken for a defender (which I am not) but really are you saying that they are in the same league?
"but really are you saying that they are in the same league?"
I remember wondering after 9/11. How many of the Irish American emergency service workers have contributed a few cents in a bar towards The I.R.A's coffers.
It just jumped into my mind and I didn't want it there.
After seeing bloody, torn corpses on the T.V. and eyeing litter bins with suspicion for years and years I just couldn't help it.
Lets hope its finished. Lets leave it there.
Whether or not you believe me I can assure you that in at least 95% of cases the average American would never know that his money would be goig to that. They masquerade as charity (similar in muslim countries I guess) and the average "man on the street" wouldn't even think about it. You had the experience wher eyou wondered b/c it happened near where you live and now we had a bad experience too. I know that they cracked down alot on ALL terrorist type stuff after 9/11 and I read somewhere that the UK govt made them aware that the IRA stuff had to be scrutinized as well and to my knowledge it was but I'm not with any government agency I just work for a private company.
You guys rasie good points though.
Asking questions about NORAID is what got me banned from MWR. Some very sensitive people over there who don't want to see certain truths.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Could someone please enlighten me? I have so far gathered only that it is not a typo for NORAD.What is NORAID? I am familiar only with NORAD, which hardly needs apologizing for ... :wink:
Cheers,
Martin ("Crusader")
NORAID is an organisation collecting funds in the USA to send money and arms to the IRA to fight "British Opression".
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
:idea:
I doubt though that IRA timepieces woould pass the "issued watches" muster at MWR ... :evil:
Cheers,
Martin ("Crusader")
If it happens then it happens. People shouldn't ignore that type of thing. You are perfectly correct in mentioning it. If more of the US public even knew about stuff like that they would demand an end to it. I'd say that most of any support for that type of group would be in and around Queens NY since that has traditionally been a hub of Irish immigration to America. I would guess maybe in Chicago too? My wife's uncle owned an establishment in that area. (Queens) I don't think that anyone in her family partook in that because there have been Englishmen marry into that family (her great aunt married a "Butterfield" and lived in Manchester and her cousin is married to an English guy - so they aren't "Brit haters") and while I have heard some complaints about the whole "situation" in the North they aren't IRA types - but IRA connections to Queens NY go back a long way.
Oddly enough one of her cousins several years back quietly admitted to her that "she" was "involved" in some minor capacity, but I don't believe it. This particular girl was an attention seeker and ended up marrying a Protestant "orangeman" type guy and having kids with him!! Now she's a virtual prisoner of him and his family and isn't allowed any contact with her family.
Have there been any recent IRA attacks on British interests?
I note you have quoted from a post of mine, I didn't use the words "Muslim", "Islamic", or "Fundamentalist" to describe these people, I called them "miserable, cowardly tossers" because that is what they are, I made no reference whatsoever to race or creed.
These people have engaged in cruel, cowardly acts and should be thoroughly decried because of that, their race is of no consequence to me.
Please read posts more carefully before quoting in the context of racism.
Jim
You more than most Ming :wink:
Jim
Good one Jim.............. :)
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