Electric cars-got to be a viable option now?

[Dave+63]

And the facts are that EVs haven't been around long enough and in sufficient numbers to know things like longevity and environmental cost.

They’ve been around for well over twelve years now, how long do you think is long enough? All the experts do agree, however, that whilst the initial environmental cost to build us higher, the EV IS less polluting over the life of the vehicle. This topic has been raised and debunked many times on this thread alone.

I'm not against EVs at all, I now drive less than 4k a years, am extremely environmentally aware and responsible. I'd love them to be the answer but I don't believe they are. And further I don't believe that they will play out as being more environmentally friendly over their lifetime.

You may not believe it but all the experts do.

I think the real answer will be to drastically reduce the number of private vehicles and ramp up clean, fast, and cheap public transport.

You are right, this is the answer. The trouble is that it’s never going to happen, at least in our lifetimes!

[Tooks]

And the facts are that EVs haven't been around long enough and in sufficient numbers to know things like longevity and environmental cost.

They’ve been around plenty long enough (I purchased my first one 9 years ago, a BMW i3, it’s still on the road), the causes of battery degradation are well understood, as are the methods for recycling and reuse of all sorts of battery chemistries.

I think the real answer will be to drastically reduce the number of private vehicles and ramp up clean, fast, and cheap public transport.

Yes, absolutely agreed, and I’d vote for any government that would take it on and do it properly. Alas, I don’t see that happening, so for now we’re relying on transition to a least worst option.

[stuie-t]

My wife’s car (Renault Zoe) will be at the end of the initial 3 year term on the company car scheme at the beginning of next year, so we are thinking about what to do with it and it’s becoming apparent how much the market has changed in the time that we have had it, and particularly over the last 12 months or so.
We are paying just over 200/month net at the moment, but a new one on the same terms (though slightly higher spec) is now being quoted at £423/month on the car scheme! I guess that reflects the higher financing costs but also the high rate of depreciation on them. looking at auto trader, a 3 year old Zoe with low mileage can be had for around £13k, when they were around the £30k mark new. In fact, at 3 years old the price is not much different to a Fiesta of a similar age and mileage, and therefore surely approaching is price point where they will be a serious option for many.


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[Mj2k]

Not taking the bribe, the silly tax level just goes straight to pension and we like the 2 Porsches and a smart car combo, an EV wouldn’t replace any of them - the smart EV could if it would make it to the end of the road before needing a charge.


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[Lazydonkey]

3k miles in our i3s last year, the first year we've had it.

That's over 1k miles more than the car it replaced and it's the car my wife and I fight over. So much so that the family car is hardly moving now and i'm having to force myself to drive said family car so the 12V battery doesn't die.

In the grand scheme of things it's a tiny mileage (we live 3 miles from the centre of Glasgow and i work from home or cycle to work) and it means that the car doesn't pay for itself in terms of running cost savings BUT we won't be going back to ICE for the city car ever.

It's just a much much much nicer experience and it makes ICE feel pretty prehistoric IMHO. It doesn't give you B road thrills like my Lotus used to but for 90% of the mundane sub 1 hour journeys it's my choice of transport.

As a dyed in the wool car enthusiast i'm really stunned at how much I've enjoyed driving it. I just feel it's a majorly overlooked reason behind the shift to electric.

[ryanb741]

3k miles in our i3s last year, the first year we've had it.

That's over 1k miles more than the car it replaced and it's the car my wife and I fight over. So much so that the family car is hardly moving now and i'm having to force myself to drive said family car so the 12V battery doesn't die.

In the grand scheme of things it's a tiny mileage (we live 3 miles from the centre of Glasgow and i work from home or cycle to work) and it means that the car doesn't pay for itself in terms of running cost savings BUT we won't be going back to ICE for the city car ever.

It's just a much much much nicer experience and it makes ICE feel pretty prehistoric IMHO. It doesn't give you B road thrills like my Lotus used to but for 90% of the mundane sub 1 hour journeys it's my choice of transport.

As a dyed in the wool car enthusiast i'm really stunned at how much I've enjoyed driving it. I just feel it's a majorly overlooked reason behind the shift to electric.

I agree people overlook the fun factor. I've driven an i3 and it was a hoot, and for such a small footprint the car is surprisingly roomy inside.

I drive a Tesla Model 3 and it's actually really good fun to drive. Sure it's not a Porsche GT3 but it is surprisingly engaging and acceleration is wonderful.

Re the engine noise or lack of it mentioned earlier in the thread- actually having no engine noise is IMHO a benefit in built up areas when you need to be mindful of residents

[Boss13]

I agree people overlook the fun factor. I've driven an i3 and it was a hoot, and for such a small footprint the car is surprisingly roomy inside.

I drive a Tesla Model 3 and it's actually really good fun to drive. Sure it's not a Porsche GT3 but it is surprisingly engaging and acceleration is wonderful.

Re the engine noise or lack of it mentioned earlier in the thread- actually having no engine noise is IMHO a benefit in built up areas when you need to be mindful of residents

Lack of noise is a great benefit. Weirdly, I think it also helps reduce fatigue on a long drive.

[stuie-t]

Lack of noise and no vibration through the steering wheel in an EV certainly makes for a more relaxing drive


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[wileeeeeey]

And on motorways barely touching the steering wheel, just nudging it every 30 seconds. Feature available on an ice car but still nice.

I’m going to try and get a film on the windows now though. Lost 12% in the last 3 days from overheating.

[Mj2k]

And on motorways barely touching the steering wheel, just nudging it every 30 seconds. Feature available on an ice car but still nice.

I’m going to try and get the a film on the windows now though. Lost 12% in the last 3 days from overheating.

You trust tech more than I do, my friend.


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[wileeeeeey]

You trust tech more than I do, my friend.


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Half the time I’m nudging the steering wheel with my knee when it beeps

Only in decent weather and straight motorways. It’s awful on anything with even a slight bend over 20 mph.

[ryanb741]

Half the time I’m nudging the steering wheel with my knee when it beeps

Only in decent weather and straight motorways. It’s awful on anything with even a slight bend over 20 mph.

Again that's odd. My autopilot is fine on motorway bends - I even use it on B roads and undulating country roads- it controls the speed so slows down on sharper bends automatically. It is great also for those narrow temporary 50 mph lanes on motorway stretches where road works are taking place.

[wileeeeeey]

Again that's odd. My autopilot is fine on motorway bends - I even use it on B roads and undulating country roads- it controls the speed so slows down on sharper bends automatically. It is great also for those narrow temporary 50 mph lanes on motorway stretches where road works are taking place.

I don’t think mine slows down for bends. I’ll try it next time I’m out.

Do you pay for any autopilot or just the free one?
Bends on motorways are generally fine but on A/B roads it can’t turn the wheel enough and I have to take over.

[ryanb741]

I don’t think mine slows down for bends. I’ll try it next time I’m out.

Do you pay for any autopilot or just the free one?
Bends on motorways are generally fine but on A/B roads it can’t turn the wheel enough and I have to take over.

Just the basic autopilot, not enhanced or FSD.

The one fault I think it has isn't so much the bends but the dips on country roads. I was driving to do a F2F with a fellow member who lives in Sussex and the route was country roads that were windy but also undulating up and down. Autopilot defaulted to the 60 mph limit and the car was keeping that speed up the road and over the hills and down again - reminded me of being on a roller coaster and I needed to take over to stop vomiting (plus it felt unsafe as whilst the limit is 60 mph in reality those were 40 mph roads).

[Jack83]

Got my first taste of EV rage today. At the local Shell asking when their charging points would be open; I was followed out by a lady walking to her car who said something like ‘electric cars are powered by coal stations’ and when I said something fairly dismissive in response, she got very angry and shouted at me about everyone having to suffer with the fumes of the power stations so I could have my electric car. She then got into her 15+ year old diesel estate and drove off like a maniac.

Stay safe out there..!

[wileeeeeey]

Our local shell had chargers put in but turned off for a few months and then ripped out. Must have cost thousands.

[noTAGlove]

Our local shell had chargers put in but turned off for a few months and then ripped out. Must have cost thousands.

Does anyone use local Shell chargers at almost 80p/kWh?

I can see being forced to use them on the motorway, but there are much cheaper local alternatives, obviously including charging at home.

[wileeeeeey]

Does anyone use local Shell chargers at almost 80p/kWh?

I can see being forced to use them on the motorway, but there are much cheaper local alternatives, obviously including charging at home.

I think they’re just desperate top ups for passing motorists. Doubt anyone would use one regularly.

[Tooks]

I think they’re just desperate top ups for passing motorists. Doubt anyone would use one regularly.

Depends if you have something like an Elli subscription, Shell chargers for me are 43p per kWh, but they’re 79p per kWh even on the free subscription, 85p per kWh using contactless or the Shell RFID. Bizarre pricing structures going on with some operators.

I tend not to use them though, a 4 charger site not far from me they’re often all switched off, so I don’t aim for them on a longer journey. It’s almost like Shell don’t want them to be reliable…

[MB2]

They have just put 3 of the Shell Chargers into our local waitrose - I don't quite understand the thinking - cheap or free like at Tesco is an incentive to shop there - these are just as you say useful to desparate motorists.

That said I have used the EV station in New Malden when I couldn't charge elsewhere but mostly try to stay in the Tesla network when I am travelling.

[Tooks]

They have just put 3 of the Shell Chargers into our local waitrose - I don't quite understand the thinking - cheap or free like at Tesco is an incentive to shop there - these are just as you say useful to desparate motorists.

That said I have used the EV station in New Malden when I couldn't charge elsewhere but mostly try to stay in the Tesla network when I am travelling.

And why wouldn’t you, the Tesla network is pretty cheap for Tesla owners/drivers in comparison to a lot of the other big charge point operators. Still pretty good price for non Tesla owners where they’ve been opened up for all as well.

Fortunately, public rapid charging is a diverse picture, and there are some good subscription models around that lower the cost for those doing the bulk of their charging publicly.

I tend to head for Ionity, Gridserve, Osprey, Fastned or Instavolt chargers when I’m on very long journeys, and not in the Tesla, the newer sites have multiple (6+ Rapid charge units), are quick, reliable and available.

Shell and BP Pulse are the ones I avoid, unless I happen to see a site that’s working and available.

[wileeeeeey]

Depends if you have something like an Elli subscription, Shell chargers for me are 43p per kWh, but they’re 79p per kWh even on the free subscription, 85p per kWh using contactless or the Shell RFID. Bizarre pricing structures going on with some operators.

I tend not to use them though, a 4 charger site not far from me they’re often all switched off, so I don’t aim for them on a longer journey. It’s almost like Shell don’t want them to be reliable…

That’s not bad but shame about the reliability.

Now that we have a home charger I can’t believe I was so lazy about getting the drive done. 11.5p at home off peak. Roughly £25pm Vs £80-£100 in the diesel beforehand

[Jack83]

I’m with Onto and have Shell recharge included (now it’s an add on I think), so just do my top ups there. I only top up at home if I really have to.

[noTAGlove]

I know one thing about electric cars, I am goi to lose my effing licence before the 3 year lease term is up.

[stooo]

I know one thing about electric cars, I am goi to lose my effing licence before the 3 year lease term is up.

I almost find the opposite - they are so quiet and tranquil I find myself trundling around just enjoying some hard to find peace and quiet.

[Alex L]

And why wouldn’t you, the Tesla network is pretty cheap for Tesla owners/drivers in comparison to a lot of the other big charge point operators. Still pretty good price for non Tesla owners where they’ve been opened up for all as well.

Fortunately, public rapid charging is a diverse picture, and there are some good subscription models around that lower the cost for those doing the bulk of their charging publicly.

I tend to head for Ionity, Gridserve, Osprey, Fastned or Instavolt chargers when I’m on very long journeys, and not in the Tesla, the newer sites have multiple (6+ Rapid charge units), are quick, reliable and available.

Shell and BP Pulse are the ones I avoid, unless I happen to see a site that’s working and available.

Good to hear that you choose Osprey as I'm responsible for growing their network of chargers. The challenge is finding suitable sites that'll get planning consent, not just for chargers but also some form of amenity use and then finding enough power in the network. 16 x 150kw chargers requires 2mVA.

You've mentioned some decent CPOs there, I'd add MFG to the list and probably lose Gridserve and Ionity. The reality is Fastned have 74 chargers in the UK, Ionity have 146 while Osprey have 645

[Tooks]

Good to hear that you choose Osprey as I'm responsible for growing their network of chargers. The challenge is finding suitable sites that'll get planning consent, not just for chargers but also some form of amenity use and then finding enough power in the network. 16 x 150kw chargers requires 2mVA.

You've mentioned some decent CPOs there, I'd add MFG to the list and probably lose Gridserve and Ionity. The reality is Fastned have 74 chargers in the UK, Ionity have 146 while Osprey have 645

Those are just the CPOs that I tend to use on my regular beyond range journeys, but yes I’ve used MFG down in Bristol and that was a pretty good experience too.

Not surprised to hear that power to the sites is one of the most challenging things, are the DNOs the hold up?

I like your multi hubs like the one at Brackley, that’s the kind of place I prefer to plan around, more chance of finding at least one free when I turn up.

Gridserve are just upgrading Scotch Corner Services by the looks of it, from 2 rapids to at least 10, following significant upgrades at Blyth and Wetherby Services. Travelling north on the A1 is getting easier and easier.

[wileeeeeey]

Just as a curiosity what does public electric charging look like in/around slough?

I think slough is suffering electricity capacity issues in general due to the data centres sucking up all the power.

Wonder if it has an impact on public EV charging availability?

[stooo]

Just as a curiosity what does public electric charging look like in/around slough?

I think slough is suffering electricity capacity issues in general due to the data centres sucking up all the power.

Wonder if it has an impact on public EV charging availability?

I’d imagine it looks like concrete.

[Dave+63]

This one made me laugh; apparently EVs are now responsible for all the potholes!

https://www.regit.cars/car-news/anal...rce=newsletter

[adrianw]

This one made me laugh; apparently EVs are now responsible for all the potholes!

https://www.regit.cars/car-news/anal...rce=newsletter

Yep, nothing to do with large lorries at all

[Kingstepper]

Indeed, electric cars will on average cause twice the road wear of a petrol/diesel version.
Yes, lorries are worse but far fewer of those.

[Longblackcoat]

Indeed, electric cars will on average cause twice the road wear of a petrol/diesel version.
Yes, lorries are worse but far fewer of those.

The physics of this would be interesting. Perhaps someone could explain how my Nissan Leaf (1591kg) will cause more road damage than, say, a Volkswagen Passat TDI (1663kg).

[Kingstepper]

The physics of this would be interesting. Perhaps someone could explain how my Nissan Leaf (1591kg) will cause more road damage than, say, a Volkswagen Passat TDI (1663kg).

Well that’s why I said on average.

The average electric car is around 20% heavier than a combustion engined one.

[Lazydonkey]

Surely the issue is more that cars have all increased in weight?

EDIT : Also despite the inroads being made by electric cars the ICE equivalents are still topping the sales charts. So the overall impact is less.

[Longblackcoat]

Well that’s why I said on average.

The average electric car is around 20% heavier than a combustion engined one.

So it's not EVs that are damaging roads, it's heavier cars, correct?

I'd contend that the mystifyingly pointless trend towards SUVs (also 20% heavier than a saloon/estate equivalent - the BMW X3 is c.1950kg vs 3-series at c.1600kg) has a great deal more to do with the state of the roads right now, given how small a percentage of the overall fleet is made up of EVs.

[Dave+63]

So it's not EVs that are damaging roads, it's heavier cars, correct?

I'd contend that the mystifyingly pointless trend towards SUVs (also 20% heavier than a saloon/estate equivalent - the BMW X3 is c.1950kg vs 3-series at c.1600kg) has a great deal more to do with the state of the roads right now, given how small a percentage of the overall fleet is made up of EVs.

Id contend that the biggest impact is the inability of the people responsible, to repair minor issues before they become bloody great sinkholes!

[Dave+63]

Indeed, electric cars will on average cause twice the road wear of a petrol/diesel version.
Yes, lorries are worse but far fewer of those.

According to the article there are 900,000 EVs and over 2,000,000 vans and lorries.

[Kingstepper]

So it's not EVs that are damaging roads, it's heavier cars, correct?

I'd contend that the mystifyingly pointless trend towards SUVs (also 20% heavier than a saloon/estate equivalent - the BMW X3 is c.1950kg vs 3-series at c.1600kg) has a great deal more to do with the state of the roads right now, given how small a percentage of the overall fleet is made up of EVs.

Draw your own conclusions.

[stooo]

Apparently it was an EV that ran over Bambi’s mum.

[Ruggertech]

The Titan submersible was an EV too.

[Franky Four Fingers]

Something I don’t really get with electric cars. Why have a good majority of them have to be designed to be so powerful?
So many come out with 300plus BHP which is pointless. Surely keep them 150-200 comparative with petrol and diesels engines which would give them more range surely?
Perhaps I’m missing something.


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[reggie747]

Something I don’t really get with electric cars. Why have a good majority of them have to be designed to be so powerful?
So many come out with 300plus BHP which is pointless. Surely keep them 150-200 comparative with petrol and diesels engines which would give them more range surely?
Perhaps I’m missing something.


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I think they're so designed to put the insurance premiums of the ICE car owners up by people wrapping fast and powerful EV's around trees or ARMCO or am I just pissed off 'cos today I received my renewal for one car and it's gone up by 43%.
No changes on my part, just bend over and let's lube you up Sir...

[Mj2k]

Something I don’t really get with electric cars. Why have a good majority of them have to be designed to be so powerful?
So many come out with 300plus BHP which is pointless. Surely keep them 150-200 comparative with petrol and diesels engines which would give them more range surely?
Perhaps I’m missing something.


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A similar thing I share with you there.

Equally 300+bhp in a ICE tends to lend itself towards people who are into cars & can drive.

Someone jumping from pootling about in a small corsa and then into a Tesla, as one of my neighbours has done is asking for trouble.

Watching her park is entertaining and glad there is no way she can bump our cars in doing so. I fear for her going forwards with that much power.

[Kingstepper]

The Titan submersible was an EV too.

And this is ICE

[Ruggertech]

And this is ICE

Indeed, in the early days of this thread I had to work out what the abbreviation ICE means. To me also it always meant sound systems and such.

[Kingstepper]

Indeed, in the early days of this thread I had to work out what the abbreviation ICE means. To me also it always meant sound systems and such.

Yep, that's what I first think of when seeing 'ICE'.

Suppose the abbreviation is needed to differentiate between these and steam/other non-internal combustion engines.

[Ruggertech]

Suppose the abbreviation is needed to differentiate between steam and other non-internal combustion engines.

Makes sense.
We may stuck in the 80's or 90's with our definition of ICE.

[stooo]

Something I don’t really get with electric cars. Why have a good majority of them have to be designed to be so powerful?
So many come out with 300plus BHP which is pointless. Surely keep them 150-200 comparative with petrol and diesels engines which would give them more range surely?
Perhaps I’m missing something.


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I don’t understand this either. It’s probably because they can.

I don’t think the extra power necessarily comes with an increased consumption overhead, if you use it it will.

The PHEV we have (2000kg) has 80kw electric motor (109bhp/265nm) and it’s enough around town (0<30) - it’s not enough for the motorway though.

[Dave+63]

Something I don’t really get with electric cars. Why have a good majority of them have to be designed to be so powerful?
So many come out with 300plus BHP which is pointless. Surely keep them 150-200 comparative with petrol and diesels engines which would give them more range surely?
Perhaps I’m missing something.


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Probably because a 300bhp electric motor is hardly any bigger, heavier or more expensive than a 200bhp one. And adding a second one to produce 600bhp total doesn’t cost much more either.

Electric motors are much cheaper and easier to produce than engines and gearboxes so why not?

In addition, a 300bhp motor driving at 60mph is using the same amount of energy as a 200bhp electric motor at 60mph so unlike ICE, a more powerful electric motor isn’t going to reduce the range in the batteries unless the car is driven at consistently higher speeds.

In theory too, four wheel drive EVs should have greater range than their two wheel drive equivalents as there are two or more motors regenerating energy under braking. This doesn’t appear to be Bourne out by the manufacturer’s figures though.