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Thread: Whatever happened to IWC?

  1. #1
    Master
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    Whatever happened to IWC?

    Yes, what happened. My recollection is that they used to be a serious player. Now they just seem over-priced and somewhat irrelevant .
    Or is that harsh?

  2. #2
    Master
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    Whatever happened to the Likely Lads?

  3. #3
    Grand Master Seamaster73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    Yes, what happened. My recollection is that they used to be a serious player. Now they just seem over-priced and somewhat irrelevant. Or is that harsh?
    The rot set in with Sellita movements.

    Oh, and THAT date window.

  4. #4
    Master helidoc's Avatar
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    The way I see it, there are two IWCs

    Watches such as the Big Pilot are magnificent.

    At the more accessibly priced end their use of ETA / Sellita from a brand with their engineering capability, just seems cheap. Their school report would say “could do better”. Sellita from the likes of Bremont or B&R is appropriate, but I expect more from IWC.

    When I evaluated a Fliegerchronograph a couple of years ago, I thought I’d casework was very uninspiring compared with an equivalent Bremont

    So IWC, yes please, but either vintage or a Big Pilot

    D


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  5. #5
    Grand Master abraxas's Avatar
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    Whatever happened to IWC?
    Richemont, that's what.

  6. #6
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    And Georges Kern
    They lost it years ago for me when they ditched Mk Hands in fabout of B-Uhr ones, and decided that internal bezels on Aquatimers were a bad idea.
    JUst when other companies were beginning to discover their heritage, IWC threw away 2 of their greatest designs. Voluntarily.
    They've been selling pastiches ever since, for me.

    Dave

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by helidoc View Post
    The way I see it, there are two IWCs

    Watches such as the Big Pilot are magnificent.

    At the more accessibly priced end their use of ETA / Sellita from a brand with their engineering capability, just seems cheap. Their school report would say “could do better”. Sellita from the likes of Bremont or B&R is appropriate, but I expect more from IWC.

    When I evaluated a Fliegerchronograph a couple of years ago, I thought I’d casework was very uninspiring compared with an equivalent Bremont

    So IWC, yes please, but either vintage or a Big Pilot

    D


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    Nought wrong with ETA - known reliability and ease of service. People are too hung up with in house movements - especially on the lower end of watchmaking.

    Richemont are more the problem and confused the strategy - especially at entry level things went awry in the last decade, especially when they started messing around with the ingenieur in particular.

    The IWC I have is one of the last excellent IWCs ingenieurs


  8. #8
    Grand Master Seamaster73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyp View Post
    Nought wrong with ETA - known reliability and ease of service. People are too hung up with in house movements - especially on the lower end of watchmaking.
    Agreed. But IWC's problem is charging in-house prices for watches with bog-standard Sellita movements.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamaster73 View Post
    Agreed. But IWC's problem is charging in-house prices for watches with bog-standard Sellita movements.
    Jup fully agree - Richemont have been really bad with increasing entry prices and cheapening the quality. Look at what they've done with Panerai entry models.

  10. #10
    Master
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    They've lost their way. I like the older model IWC's that I own but the current offerings leave me cold.

  11. #11
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyp View Post
    Jup fully agree - Richemont have been really bad with increasing entry prices and cheapening the quality. Look at what they've done with Panerai entry models.
    what have they done?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by cyrusir View Post
    what have they done?
    From a few years back - snap back cases, extremely crude finished movements and reduced depth rating. We've discussed it a few times here, I'll try and dig the thread out.

  13. #13
    Master endo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyp View Post
    Jup fully agree - Richemont have been really bad with increasing entry prices and cheapening the quality. Look at what they've done with Panerai entry models.
    Also massive massive discounting was availiable on IWCs between 5-10 years ago, which hurt sales big time.
    Why pay 5k rrp when it could be had new for half that, value retention, perceived value is a huge factor for most people (which is why Rolex has done well wether we like their control over pricing or not)


    I agree, its a shame how the entry Panerai models have been redesigned to cut costs, and yet still demand the same asking price :(

  14. #14
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyp View Post
    From a few years back - snap back cases, extremely crude finished movements and reduced depth rating. We've discussed it a few times here, I'll try and dig the thread out.
    think those are the duo right, to be fair the regular manual winds are better than they were before, now get an 8day movt as std.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by cyrusir View Post
    think those are the duo right, to be fair the regular manual winds are better than they were before, now get an 8day movt as std.
    No they started this with the 'regular' line first. It was a New York limited edition - Brooklyn Bridge if memory serves

  16. #16
    Master helidoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyp View Post
    Nought wrong with ETA - known reliability and ease of service. People are too hung up with in house movements - especially on the lower end of watchmaking.

    I have no issue at all with ETA /Sellita, but for a company like IWC with all their history, and engineering ability, they could do better. For a much newer company, Bremont comes to mind, they have no alternative, but we should be mindful of asking price and value.

    I think they are in effect a two speed company, so really inspiring stuff at over £10k, and some very pedestrian entry level stuff. A Mark XVIII on a strap retails at close to £4000. It just smacks of laziness

    D


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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by helidoc View Post
    I have no issue at all with ETA /Sellita, but for a company like IWC with all their history, and engineering ability, they could do better. For a much newer company, Bremont comes to mind, they have no alternative, but we should be mindful of asking price and value.

    I think they are in effect a two speed company, so really inspiring stuff at over £10k, and some very pedestrian entry level stuff. A Mark XVIII on a strap retails at close to £4000. It just smacks of laziness

    D


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    I still don't get your argument - IWC have used ETA movements for a large part of their history for entry watches, they should (IMO) continue to use them - it has nothing to do with 'doing better' - as Seasmaster rightly pointed out above, they have a pricing problem for said watches.

  18. #18
    Grand Master Seamaster73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by endo View Post
    I agree, its a shame how the entry Panerai models have been redesigned to cut costs, and yet still demand the same asking price :(
    New, yes. Used, prices are as soft as I can ever remember them being. The PAM bubble of a decade or so ago has truly burst.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamaster73 View Post
    New, yes. Used, prices are as soft as I can ever remember them being. The PAM bubble of a decade or so ago has truly burst.
    Jup - thank goodness. A good example was the 127 ('Fiddy') that was going for serious bonkers money. Plus Panerai diluted some of them with the numerous SEs/LEs.

    I was reminiscing yesterday, 10 years to the month that I purchased my 111 - for £3200 odd (that was post a price rise) and it was actually quite hard to find a base model back in the day - I felt they had the right combination of availability and desirability. After buying a fair few, I'm only left with the same 111 and a 190 - one of the few really interesting watches from 10 odd years ago.

    This really is more a Richemont problem than an IWC problem. Swatch seem to handle brands better - from this years releases, they seem to set an overall direction and let the brands manage themselves.

  20. #20
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    I have just sold an iwc heritage mk xiii it was a lovely looking watch but on the wrist it just felt and looked like an old timex i was the third owner in 6 months and now its off to number 4 says it all really



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  21. #21
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    I think Richemont screwed both IWC and Panerai these past few years...

    While I’m not following IWC,I do follow pam and their new models lacking the timelessness of their older models (blue second,colorful paint on the dial,spring bars,snap back etc...)

  22. #22
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    And Georges Kern
    They lost it years ago for me when they ditched Mk Hands in fabout of B-Uhr ones, and decided that internal bezels on Aquatimers were a bad idea.
    JUst when other companies were beginning to discover their heritage, IWC threw away 2 of their greatest designs. Voluntarily.
    They've been selling pastiches ever since, for me.

    Dave
    I agree with the above. I remember quite a few years back when an IWC 3536 was a sought after watch and a darling of this forum, a lot of people would have had one over a Sub.

  23. #23
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    I used to have a pilot chrono and AMG ingenier, they were really good watches then they got bloated and overpriced .The new pilots watches seem nice with in house movements and interesting designs hope they have turned the corner

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  24. #24
    Master helidoc's Avatar
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    Whatever happened to IWC?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterzero View Post
    I used to have a pilot chrono and AMG ingenier, they were really good watches then they got bloated and overpriced .The new pilots watches seem nice with in house movements and interesting designs hope they have turned the corner

    Sent from my moto g(7) play using TZ-UK mobile app
    Well I'm going to have to retract my earlier comments!

    Calibre 32000 in the "Spitfire" pilots watches, and of course the 82000 in the partnering Chronograph

    That looks like definitely turning a corner

    I've learnt something

    Dave
    Last edited by helidoc; 24th June 2019 at 23:25.

  25. #25
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nev View Post
    I agree with the above. I remember quite a few years back when an IWC 3536 was a sought after watch and a darling of this forum, a lot of people would have had one over a Sub.
    The 3536 was, minus the movement, higher quality than a 16610. It was easily on par with the current Sub. The current AT is total crap in comparison.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by helidoc View Post
    I have no issue at all with ETA /Sellita, but for a company like IWC with all their history, and engineering ability, they could do better. For a much newer company, Bremont comes to mind, they have no alternative, but we should be mindful of asking price and value.

    I think they are in effect a two speed company, so really inspiring stuff at over £10k, and some very pedestrian entry level stuff. A Mark XVIII on a strap retails at close to £4000. It just smacks of laziness

    D


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    Completely agree, a Mark XVIII should be closer to two grand than four! Just because Rolex can get away with murder, other brands think they can do the same. It was never going to end well when Richemont got hold of the company.

    Remember the halcyon days of the Mark XII with the JLC movement?
    Last edited by KavKav; 25th June 2019 at 07:52.

  27. #27
    Master
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    They don’t seem to have many fans on TZ! But they brought that on themselves.

  28. #28
    Master helidoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KavKav View Post
    Completely agree, a Mark XVIII should be closer to two grand than four! Just because Rolex can get away with murder, other brands think they can do the same. It was never going to end well when Richemont got hold of the company.

    Remember the halcyon days of the Mark XII with the JLC movement?
    Not quite two!

    The new spitfire version with in-house looks a much better proposition at about the same money. The “vintage” look isn’t for me, although it looks positive for the next Mark

    Dave




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  29. #29
    Craftsman
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    The double chronograph , the top gun pilot and top gun chronograph all have in-house movements for similar money to other brands though I agree that the models featuring Sellita/ETA movement are expensive for what they are .I would like to see some new models in their diving watch range l.

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  30. #30
    Grand Master Seamaster73's Avatar
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    I love the new 38mm pilot that debuted a year or so ago. If that was priced commensurate with its Sellita movement, I'd have bought one by now. There's some savage discounts on the grey market, but not quite savage enough for me.

    The smaller dimensions also avoid the date window howler on the Mk XVIII.

  31. #31
    Grand Master
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    Im a big fan of the old ingenieurs but thats really where it ends with IWC for me apart from the rubberclad aquatimer which is pretty cool.
    I had my hands on the new pilot mk IW326801 on the green nato recently and found it inoffensive, but that was the extent of the effect it had.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    Yes, what happened. My recollection is that they used to be a serious player. Now they just seem over-priced and somewhat irrelevant .
    Or is that harsh?
    It’s a great discussion point. To some it up their modern entry level watches have eta movements and their more complex watches are over priced, with very poor residuals. I’ve owned a few but glad I sold them.
    I think watch collectors now are a lot more savvy now. The more desired IWC,s are now classed as vintage when IWC had some clout in the market.

  33. #33
    IWC peaked with this:



    It's been downhill ever since.

  34. #34
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    I know this watch is not very well liked, personally i think it is a cracking looking watch and will be a future classic with the unorthodox date window:


  35. #35
    Master raysablade's Avatar
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    I love the idea of the 3741 mecaquartz because I have the utmost respect for IWC as ebauche tinkerers. I think there is a strong argument to be made for this movement being the pinnacle of a thouroughly respectable branch of Swiss watchmaking.

    Its pencilled in as my final significant on-retirement purchase. Secondhand of course.


    - - - Updated - - -

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by matt109 View Post
    I know this watch is not very well liked, personally i think it is a cracking looking watch and will be a future classic with the unorthodox date window:

    I don't mind the date window but it's changing 2 hours early.

  37. #37
    Master PreacherCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by verv View Post
    I had my hands on the new pilot mk IW326801 on the green nato recently and found it inoffensive, but that was the extent of the effect it had.
    Very much this. "Inoffensive" isn't a reason to splash out thousands, certainly in my eyes. They're just... Undistinguished, and not very interesting - even if they do seem to have ditched the stupid date window nonsense. Binning their heritage hasn't helped, either.

    I'd love a vintage one, or a mecaquartz, though.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    IWC peaked with this:



    It's been downhill ever since.
    Have to agree. I bought this watch on SC then sold it back to the original owner via SC.

    An absolute classic

  39. #39
    Master
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    dont know about the rest of you but id take another top gun flieger chrono,

    had one before, bloody cool watch

  40. #40
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt109 View Post
    I know this watch is not very well liked, personally i think it is a cracking looking watch and will be a future classic with the unorthodox date window:

    The design was explained to me that you could always read the date either side if the hand was blocking the middle.

  41. #41
    Master
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    I like mine,the date window doesn't bother me nor does the movement as I know it’s been refined before fitting.

    Can some one explain to me please,is an in house movement always better than a tried and tested movement?
    How is that possible do they never make mistakes?


    The date changes at 12.00,the dial,hands and glass are crystal clear with an easy to read contrast.
    It’s neither to big,to small or to heavy.
    It’s understated and oozes a simple class in my opinion.

    how much does a forensic anthropologist make per year

  42. #42
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    IWC have sponsored the Goodwood member's Meeting in April for the last two years, and have a unit there with their range on display. Nothing particularly memorable, and they seem to have succumbed to the "large watch" design disease. As a result of that, the small wristed chap behind their counter was more interested in my Datejust than anything in his glass display cabinet ... :-)

  43. #43
    Master hhhh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 459GMB View Post
    IWC seem to have succumbed to the "large watch" design disease. As a result of that, the small wristed chap behind their counter was more interested in my Datejust than anything in his glass display cabinet ... :-)
    Not entirely. They did recently release this 36mm special edition ...


  44. #44
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    The last good Mark series flieger if you ask me.

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  45. #45
    Master helidoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sammers23 View Post
    The last good Mark series flieger if you ask me.

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    Agreed

    Trends and commercial pressures are driving them to downsize a bit, and develop new movements. Better choices for buyers, and it’s better for them to back in the movement game for “entry level” watches

    Dave


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  46. #46
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyp View Post
    I still don't get your argument - IWC have used ETA movements for a large part of their history for entry watches, they should (IMO) continue to use them - it has nothing to do with 'doing better' - as Seasmaster rightly pointed out above, they have a pricing problem for said watches.
    They used to go on a lot about how they fettled the stock ETA ebauches to create their own improved calibers, much as VC might work on JLC and GP movements. But I don’t remember them talking about improving the Sellitas at all. This caused the demise of the Ingenieur in the end, as it became unsustainable for Omega to be making new antimagnetic movements, while IWC were selling Sellitas with a bit of iron for more money. It’s a great pity though and I wish there’d been another way to refine the almost great design of the Genta style Ingenieur they had, even if it meant dropping antimagnetic as a selling point. They tried I guess, but the whole Formula 1 thing felt a bit cheap, even though the prices didn’t.

    I’ve had a couple of vintage IWCs and what really stood out was the engineering. They were so solid and perfectly built, they felt like very serious watches. I think under Kerns they had some initial success catching a wave of pilots and large watches like the Portuguese, but as they continued to bring out new collections year after year they gradually turned themselves into a fashion brand and lost the fundamental appeal.

  47. #47
    Master
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    I disagree I had 2 vintage at one stage, I sold them both and kept my new one as it was much better in my view as a watch.

  48. #48
    Craftsman
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    IWC = I WEAR CLOCK

  49. #49
    I Like IWC watches and have a Portuguese chrono with blue numerals. Though nothing else in the current collection tempts me, pilot watch is too plain & expensive for what it is (the Sellita movement) ,the pilot chrono is too big & thick, portofino is too dressy/similar to my Portuguese and the current ingy/aquatimer looks like a flop (IWC have completely redesign them every few years) and are barely seen in IWC displays in a jewellers windows(they arent popular).

  50. #50
    Master
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    I like all of mine.


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