Reply With QuoteAs you say, if the CC company claimed 'item not as described', I thought the item had to be returned via a secure delivery service?
If the buyer had claimed for item not delivered I have a feeling - given the proof of collection - that the claim would not have been successful.
Seller, if PayPal have refunded on the basis of ‘item not as described’ then can’t you insist the item is returned?
If the grounds for the claim and payout are false, is that not fraud? What is PayPal’s view on this?
As you say, if the CC company claimed 'item not as described', I thought the item had to be returned via a secure delivery service?
Cheers..
Jase
Well to be “not as described” one would have to view an item to reach such conclusion, and no item received apparently so yes this makes sense to me.Originally Posted by JasonM
Doesn’t seem right at all.
OP, in the initial post, you didn't include the "what do you mean" part of the conversation. Without that, it makes Gab look a lot different... intentional?For clarity’s sake:
After my “what do you mean?” You simply went quiet until you received notification from PayPal that there was a problem with the transaction.
It's clear to me, knowing Gab as I do, this is all just a very unfortunate set of circumstances. There's not a chance Gab has stolen your watch here, and in response to Paul asking if Gab's done all he can... have you ever tried to deal with Royal Mail? They're literally one of the most difficult companies to get a resolution from. You may as well give up before you've started. CCTV is just laughable as there's no way you'd ever get that. I've had several items go missing in the past and they were useless; luckily, after a few days, the items just magically appeared, but had they not, I'm sure I'd have been out of pocket.
The signature looks like a child wrote it, and as sorry as I am for you OP, with you baring the brunt of this unnecessary mess, I can't personally see what more Gab could have done. He hasn't received it, but is expected to still pay for it, or even go halves on it? It doesn't work like that and I'm sure you'd say the same if the tides were turned.
Are these the facts?
Someone collects an ‘item not delivered’ card from the buyer’s address, turns up at delivery office with the buyer’s ID, signs for the item in buyer’s name, then receives a full refund by claiming ‘item not as described’ through credit card and PayPal, but doesn’t need to return the watch which according to all available evidence was collected and ‘not as described’.
Another member here who knows Gab well. He's a stand out guy and there is zero chance he's done anything dodgy. Zero chance. I feel bad for the OP (I've been there before) but it is what it is.
If we’re talking a lot of money why not gather some evidence of buyer’s character and put a ccj to Royal Mail.
Surely in a court of law with all the character references a judge would find that RM have been totally incompetent and handed the watch to someone or indeed stolen it (more likely IMO)
I’m more of the opinion that either postie or someone in the sorting office has had a peek inside and worked out ‘nice watch plus no insurance = easy theft for them through lack of investigation’. Trouble with these deliveries in and out the uk is they have written on them what’s inside. Very handy if you’re a tea leaf.
I’m sure this is what happened to my watch someone sent me. (Again the seller put a token insurance amount but a description of the item inside)
If the item is listed for £1k then postie isn’t going to steal it as there would be a job losing investigation no doubt.
That depends on whether you accept that RM can be negligent/incompetent or not. This point has repeatedly been made by various posters, yet you're still hell bent on believing that a collection by the buyer has indeed been made.
Either RM or buyer (unlikely given references here) is at fault but the seller loses out. Doesn't seem right!
I've regularly picked up items and not been asked for ID. On another occasion, I went to pick something up and they said it had been signed for. The next day a neighbour came and said he went to pick something up and although he'd provided ID, he realised when he got in the car they give him my item!
It's all perfectly plausible to me that items simply disappear from the post office due to both theft and straight forward cock-ups - it's impossible for this not to happen due to the sheer volume of items they deal with.
I’m not hellbent on anything pal.
I’m just trying to establish the facts, based on the available evidence.
Notwithstanding any alleged RM negligence/incompetence, one of these facts appears to be that someone has made a fraudulent ‘item not as described’ claim.
I’ll once again tell you my “facts”
I have not received anything, parcel or card.
On the day that RM allegedly dropped the red card off, my wife was at home.
The item was signed for at the post office and that is not my signature.
After placing a complaint to RM and getting their response, I told Linus and you can see the end of the exchange few posts above.
I contacted my CC company to see if I could claim my money back and explained what happened.
The CC company ha refunded the money.
A couple of weeks later the CC company wrote to me asking for a second formal declaration of what happened and I complied.
Obviously there are other “facts” in the middle of it but this is pretty much what happened on my side.
If the buyer's version of the story is true (and if you accept that it's possible that RM has fudged it up then there's no reason to doubt it) - then he claimed his money back from his credit card company, NOT Paypal, so it would be them that claimed 'item not as described' as the reason for the dispute, not the buyer
i've had two watches go awol
once sending it for a service - signed for - the service guy says he never received it, i believe him, signed for by some twit who now has a broken watch - RMSD claimed and got some money back - wasn't worth an awful lot but it had sentimental value.
second time I sold to a bloke in denmark - he never received it the tracking never updated - who knows where it is - I'd not insured it so my loss and i refunded him no questions asked. Forum to forum sale/guys with good reputation should not need questions asked. as a seller if you want a decent reputation its what you do...
very sorry the seller has lost a nice watch and the buyer never received it. we will keep an eye out for it - as a forum thats all we can do
The fact that Royal Mail would've had CCTV footage available is the most frustrating aspect of all this, this would've confirmed who did and who did not sign for the item. Possibly its now too late to get any resolution, but RM should've taken this seriously and investigated. Maybe they have and they're saying nothing.......if it's one of their own who's at fault it's in their best interests to keep it quiet.
Another irony in this case is the Customs charge........or lack of! To duck under the radar the value stated on the package must've been low, I`m not condemning this because I`ve done it myself in the past, I`ve asked for 'helpful' Customs descriptions for obvious reasons. I object to paying import tax on second-hand collectibles, but that's a different debate!
Perhaps there's a lesson for all of us here; we grumble about the tax charges on items from overseas but it potentially means the item will get to the right person if it's processed through the Customs system.
From some of the comments it sounds like Royal Mail need to be more stringent about handing items over to the holder of the red card; ID should be checked more carefully and the signature should be checked. It'll never be completely foolproof , my local office are fairly strict but some obviously aren`t.
Having a description on a package advertising that it's a watch also worries me. I always asked sellers to describe the 'watch' as 'vintage watch parts', primarily to assist smooth passage through customs, but it also made the package less desirable. That was back in the days before paypal and buyer protection, there was an element of risk in buying from overseas but I always accepted that. Fortunately nothing ever went astray, I was lucky. Nowadays I`d do it by the book, insist on the item being insured properly, pay the customs fees, accept it's costly. As a seller, or even posting back repair jobs, I`ll now keep photos of the watch and serial number.
ive taken a look at the detailed tracking for this item
From my experience it looks like this item did not possibly enter the UK as a SD item but an international recorded item, whats also strange is that from my view it has no 'outdoor' scan showing it as having a D/L- ill do dome more digging.
The delivery office operate a customer service point which requires the counter staff to input what ID the person collecting the packet shows.
BTW we don't have CCTV
Don't suppose \(by the tracking) it was addressed to a po box?
Last edited by lewie; 6th December 2018 at 12:12.
Something is bothering me, and i don't know the buyer from Adam so have no skin in this game - i'm finding it hard to believe that a cc company would refund the buyer knowing all the facts we do, i.e. the buyer pays for watch, buyer does not receive watch although there is evidence that this is collected from RM using the delivery card left at the buyers address and supposedly with buyers ID (i.e. no proof it is not the buyer, whether or not the ID was presented in real life is irrelevant as this is the listed procedure for collecting an item from RM). Isn't the cc company going to say you may want a refund, but there is evidence you collected the item, how can we possibly refund you?
i'm not saying the buyer has collected the item, far from it, but I find it difficult to imagine the cc company was in a position to refund the money legitimately based on known events.
No PO Box
Similar happened to me, I went to collect a SD item (tickets) and was handed a giant box with no request to sign anything.I went to pick something up and they said it had been signed for. The next day a neighbour came and said he went to pick something up and although he'd provided ID, he realised when he got in the car they give him my item!
Checking the label it was addressed to someone a couple of roads over from me. Box was snatched back and then a wait of several minutes while my item was located.
If I'd been expecting something to arrive in a box I might not have checked anything till I arrived home, I'd imagine something similar has happened here.
was it addressed to a flat?
where does the "Item not as described "bit come in? if not as described it must of been seen/inspected
I’m surprised that Royal Mail Customer Relations are getting such a bad press. My experience is very different.
A few weeks ago I bought a Fuji 55-200 lens from a seller on EBay. The seller provided a RM tracking number. After a few days I followed the link and was surprised to see that the status was marked as “delivered”. Furthermore it had be signed for with a name I didn’t recognise . Oddly it had been delivered in the South Liverpool postal district. Odd because I live 300 miles away in Plymouth. I spoke to a very helpful woman at RM who promised to investigate and ring me back. At this stage I wasn’t very optimistic and EBay were finding in favour of the seller since the item was allegedly delivered.
However - to my surprise- the next morning RM called me back. The agent had spoken to the person in Liverpool who had made the delivery and were able to state that whilst the tracking information had my address, the address on the parcel was completely different. RM provided me with a formal statement of their findings which was accepted by EBay and I got my money back immediately.
So my experience of RM is very positive.
I wasn’t sure whether this was a scam or not. But ,curiously, a few days later I spotted an identical item on EBay with exactly the same description- word for word- and the same photos. But a different seller!
Maybe this should move to the BP? Seems some strong opinions getting voiced here.
Surely, this is the definitive answer.
It is the seller’s responsibility to ensure delivery is made and, if it has not, it is the seller who should pursue the case with the delivery agent with whom he is contracted.
Nope
An interesting post which concerns me as I am planning to sell some high value watches next year!
Stepping back form the emotion of it all I make the following points.
1. The sellers contact to deliver is with Singapore Post not Royal Mail.
2. Singapore Post then made a separate contract to deliver on behalf of Singapore post.
3. The original contract with Singapore Post was to obtain a 'signature' on delivery (or collection). The scribbled 'K' is not a signature.
4. If the package was not delivered/collected with a proper signature surely the original Singapore contract with the seller has not been fulfilled and Singapore Post not Royal Mail their sub contractor are responsible for paying compensation.
5. As previously commented it is unreasonable for the seller to have to deal with Royal Mail.
Of course all of the above is irrelevant if a 'goods not described' claim is made.
I live in a crescent within a crescent and always get my stuff delivered to the wrong crescent and vice versa. For me the issue is that whilst I’ll drive and hand deliver any items not for me the people in the other crescent simply keep quiet.
So it’s quite feasible that the watch was delivered to the wrong address and carded, the person living there then collected and have decided to keep the item or maybe they handed the item back to RM but that seems doubtful given the elapsed time.
I have in the last collected items with and without being asked for an ID. Recently I had a package which was addressed incorrectly, right road but wrong door number, i pmed the sender who told me that they had posted it over a week ago, then I got carded. Went to pick it up and the guy there who used to be our old postie told me that they had attempted to deliver it to the number written in it, they had said not for them so it came back to the sorting office where he saw it, recognised my name and scrawled the correct number on it for redivery. So it eventually got to me but only due to the honesty of the people at the other number and the sorting office guy, so they are not all bad.
Your best hope is with Paypal.
Do not be fobbed off by someone on the phone. Insist they tell you, in writing, what part of their terms and conditions for seller protection for goods not received has not been met. Forget the CC company Paypal's seller protection covers chargeback situations.
Reading their terms and your description of affairs you have fully met their conditions for items of more than $750.
Get back to them and be insistent you want the reasons in writing. I still think there is a chance this is being dealt with as a 'not as described' item as this is how the matter was raised with them.
Mitch
Last edited by Mitch; 6th December 2018 at 15:42.
I don't know exactly what service was requested by the seller from Singapore Post but, it appears to be a "signed for" delivery. As I understand it, that means that the RM require proof of ID when the item was collected from the sorting office. I know people say that doesn't happen but it doesn't matter as that is in their conditions (no, I've not checked but it's probably in this long thread).
<Removed at request of Dekard81>
Cheers, Chris
Last edited by ChrisN; 6th December 2018 at 16:30.
Many members have vouched for the buyer, which surely means a lot.
Without implying the buyer has received the watch or that he is lying, the whole story is disturbing. Unless I miss some facts, the seller sends the watch, the parcel is signed for and received with a valid ID and the red card, and yet somehow the buyer is able to claim to the cc company that he didn't collect the item and collect a refund despite the "evidence" from the RM. I mean, what else can the seller do?
The reason I find it disturbing is that anyone can collect what was sent to them and then claim a refund as well (without suggesting the buyer did the same).
I live in a flat and it happens quite frequently that the postman will leave parcels on the front door of the flat or even worse at the mailbox area, which is at the entrance of the building. I have lost a couple of parcels, albeit not of large value and on all occassions the response I got was that the goods were delivered. I now use a collection point if option is given.
Hello!?!
I’m here!
Any chance you could remove my personal details from the open forum?
Cheers
Gab
Last edited by Deckard81; 6th December 2018 at 16:36.
Removed - I really didn't realise that you were that person. By the way, I didn't add any details that are not already all over this thread... but, don't want to cause an issue.
Regards, Chris
I know mate. You are the only one that actually deleted it. Thank you.
Well, it's not as black and white as you stated though. Someone pretended to be the buyer signed for it. As far as the seller is concern it is a theft committed against the buyer. The buyer is the owner because he paid for it.
The owner now claimed his money back through his cc successfully via a charge back from PP (not judging, just stating a fact). How is that fair to the seller if the crime was carried out at the buyer's neck of the woods and yet the seller takes the full financial loss thousands of miles away?
Last edited by Fishman; 6th December 2018 at 16:54.
i'm pretty sure there is a member here who is a royal mail sorting office manager, can't remember the name though. if anyone knows is it worth asking for his input? he might be able to bypass the usual channels and get to someone who can help....
ktmog6uk
marchingontogether!
Lewis isn’t it? He’s on the case!
Simply not true. There is this thing called Consumer Rights Act that states that goods are the responsibility of the seller until they are delivered to the buyer.
It is I, Ive replied a few posts up-I’m still trying another route but it’s hard when it’s not local to me
If it was a uk SD I would be able to see the address that had been on the item
Some non uk items are treated differently when they enter the uk depends on how they arrive - I’ve seen 2 identical item from os, 1 was treated as an SD the other international recorded.
Not sure if it’s because it’s not my office but the item does not show as having an outdoor attempted delivery scan as I would expect
In that case I would say the seller has fulfilled his obligation in full. He even has evidence proving the 'buyer' signed for it and got the package, no? Or is that not black and white enough according to the Consumer Rights Act?
Does this apply given the seller is non-UK/EU? Genuine question as i don't know.
The seller should stick to his guns with PayPal. They will probably end up giving him back the money, too*. He's done all he could, and because he's not in the UK it's difficult for him to prosecute theft and or fraud proceedings against the buyer (no offence, Gab, but it's what I would do, and the police could presumably quickly decide you were an innocent party).
*I bought some bike wheels on ebay which turned out to be not as expected, but the seller kept the money but eBay also refunded me because they had "decided the case" too soon and without all the information.
THIS ^ right here. It seems that the credit card company has pressed the issue and been compensated by making a false claim to Paypal.
Seller should press the issue to Paypal, and show documentation that the item was not received, buyer attests to this, and also attests that the signature given to the mail carrier is not his.
I’m growing more suspicious of the buyer here, though. a) Item entered the country, I assume it was properly marked and insured (if not, shame on the seller). b) “Missed delivery” never received; ORLY? c) Package collected AND signed for at RM office, with a bogus signature. d) Buyer claims he inquired unsuccessfully with RM and local police, but no evidence of that provided to seller(?) or the forum. ORLY? e) Claim made to buyer’s CC company for refund; CC company tells Paypal “item not as described” to pursue a claim (not “delivery failed” because the evidence shows it was delivered). f) CC company, and perhaps buyer, have made a false claim to Paypal. That’s fraud. g) Buyer does nothing more, “I got my money back,” though a fellow forum member has lost watch and payment. h) Buyer’s refusal to help seller with clarifying the case with Paypal is suspicious. You have your money, Deckard81, what have you got to lose? OH …*I guess you could lose your refund if it turns out you claimed “not as described.”
Addendum: at least here in the US, if I make a claim to the CC company that something was not received, but the carrier shows a signature on file for delivery, I expect my CC company would think I’m defrauding them, UNLESS I demand an investigation from the carrier and a written report of finding determining that they do not have my signature. Making a false claim to my creditor is fraud, so I have to prove my case.
Sometimes it’s not enough to say, “I’m innocent, I did what I could.” Sometimes you have to prove it to display accountability. Does that suck? Sure. Is it true? Certainly.
Several of you have said “Oh, I’ve picked up packages without showing my ID.” But was that for a “signature req’d delivery,” or just a missed delivery?? It makes a difference here in the US.
Q: I’m not a frequent user of this forum, but isn’t this kind of discussion more appropriate to the H&V section or another section? This is NOT a generic “Watch discussion” topic. :-\
Last edited by ChromeJob; 6th December 2018 at 18:36.
It would depend on Singaporean law, which, in this case, would be the Sales of Goods Act :
https://sso.agc.gov.sg/Act/SGA1979#pr24-
I've only had a quick scan, but it seems that once payment has been made, unless otherwise agreed, the seller must deliver the goods to the buyer (Part IV, Article 29) and the buyer can claim that goods have not been delivered to them if the goods are lost or damaged in transit (see Part IV, Article 32, Paragraph 2)
To me, this reads that the seller is responsible for the goods reaching the buyer
Last edited by asteclaru; 6th December 2018 at 17:49.
Forget that - basic contract law is enough - the buyer has a contract that is unfilled - the problem rests with the seller.
Is it Me or does none of this stack up at all?( A) somone has a access to the buyers property and got the Royal Mail attempted delivery card ?Possibly utility bill or similar to use as ID at sorting office.(B) the attempted delivery card was put in the wrong house and who ever got it went to delivery office and was given the item with out being asked for ID. Both equally plausible and the most likely I would say
Could it have had the wrong address on it even?
i'd be looking at my neighbours wrists!
ktmog6uk
marchingontogether!
Sad story where nobody wins by the looks of it.
Seller did everything they could and sent package signed for and according to the courier (Royal Mail) the package has been signed for with ID and collected. If the package was insured they wouldn't pay up anyway.
Buyer paid for package and hasn't received it.
Not sure either could have done more or is any more responsible for the outcome.
Perhaps the solution is for the buyer who has had all his money back to give half back to the seller and both parties draw a line under it as an unfortunate nightmare and both take half the cost of it?
In Germany these "laws" don't apply to private sales - does it in Singapure or England?
As private seller (in germany) i have to send the article, when i can proof this end of story.
A professional seller has to send the article, when it is received end of story. And it does not matter who signed for.
When it's lost on the way it's his problem and he has to deal with the carrier and their insurance.
I had such a case with DHL, someone else signed for a parcel i was receiving, and dhl, their insurance and the law was on the sellers side as it was marked as delivered, no signature no address!
It took me many many mails, and nearly 2 month to find out that a not so nearby shop signed for it...
That's why i never send valuable items with dhl or similar services (not without insurance), and abroad i would only recommend seamless trackable services as Fedex or UPS.
It's a tricky story, but actually in my opinion the only "good" and gentleman solution is to agree on both sides to splitting the loss 50/50.
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