Reply With QuoteMay be due to fact that he admitted what he had done. Oh no sorry can't be true due to my low post count, although it is getting higher now :)Originally Posted by Flasher
The buyer has stated that the postman has admitted to him that he (postman) left it in the front porch, and signed for it himself.
That is not according to his procedures.
May be due to fact that he admitted what he had done. Oh no sorry can't be true due to my low post count, although it is getting higher now :)
Yes, we have the buyers account of what is reported to have happened, no one else’s.
Let the RM investigate and I am sure the two parties will update here on the outcome.
It can be true. But the item was delivered. If it wasn’t delivered to you, RM is at fault. So everyone has to work together to get them to acknowledge that. Then their insurance will kick in, the seller will get his compensation and buyer will get his refund.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
RM deliver to an address, not person.
Buyer can presumably establish that neither him nor his wife was at the property. RM will then have to explain who signed... buyer can also get affidavit from neighbours, etc.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Look under “special delivery”
https://personal.help.royalmail.com/...ial%20delivery
The postman is not one of the people who can “accept delivery”, which is perfectly understandable.
For something small and expensive like a watch the safest and most sensible thing to do is to meet F2F and do the deal. Sending something in the post is just plain risky and I say that as a former RM employee. The system has too many flaws which boils down to one persons word against the other when something goes wrong.
That's ok if logistics allow, but sellers and buyers are all over the country (even abroad). Most of us have to put our faith in RM, and the service, when working properly and correctly, does the job. This one is down to human error - whether postie or buyer is yet to be decided. But certainly not the seller.
No, of course the postman can’t.
This is not the only example of this problem, another common allegation is I ordered a watch and received a pebble. It's just a risk too far for me and if I have sufficient interest in a watch, I will, as a buyer, travel to visit the sellers home or place of work for security reasons and transfer cash on the spot. That is safe for both parties. It is not entirely fraud proof but it's a lot safer than sending a small item through the post.
Yes I agree that in this instance it appears not to be the fault of the seller who has fulfilled his part of the deal but he has certainly got a month of hassle ahead of him.
That’s why I buy from members I trust, or buy new - but if it’s not a local AD, they are always by post. No unresolved issues to date in hundreds of purchases.
It's just a matter of time...
Buy the seller, not the watch. I have had no problems so far. In this case I think the onus is very much on RM seeing as the package was allegedly signed for while all occupants of the house were absent. I can't imagine the investigation would take too long.
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What a mess.
Feel sorry for both parties.
I’ve sent and received many items via RMSD and have never had any issues. If I’m dealing with a private seller, so I’m the buyer; I make sure that I’m in. After all normal RMSD is before 13.00 right? If it’s a watch I’m buying - it’s still actually quite exciting, so I put myself out to minimise any risks.
If I’m the seller I do my best to make sure the buyer dictates when he expects delivery and work around them, or that they understand that them not being “available to receive” is at their risk.
Slightly different if dealing with a company. The last big purchase from Ernest Jones had clear instructions on the box that it was not to be left etc under any circumstances.
Not for me to speculate on the integrity of the buyer or the postie in this case, there’s enough of that already. Just hope that it gets resolved correctly. Stuff like this happening has a negative effect for all of us in the long run, which is a shame.
I too feel this is a proper mess, and feel for both parties. We all trust each other on this forum (Even low post count plonkers like me - I hope!), and feel that both the cooperation, and the inherent self policing, will lead to a successful resolution in this case.
However, what I would point out is that it seems I might be in the minority here that the buyer should expect a refund here. Hopefully both parties will be sensible and wait the 30 days to see the claim get sorted out, so a little patience from the buyer is definitely a big point here, as both parties have a lot to lose.
What's worth pointing out though is that the buyer and seller have entered into a contract, and that contract has been broken (Through no fault of either party obviously). The seller has the contract with RM, not the buyer, and it appears that under consumer law it's the seller's responsibility to ensure the package arrives safely.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...een-delivered/
Just my 2 cents.
But it has been delivered (and signed for). Buyer paid for a service purchased by the seller that was technically delivered. Seller has no way of telling what happens on buyers end since he's not a RM employee. RM claim their responsibility ends on signature. It's a messed up situation.
While the semantics are important, I agree, the problem is ultimately the end game. Worst case scenario is that RM don't pay up - buyer takes seller to court as the watch isn't in his/her possession (Through no fault of their own, and the seller is the only person the buyer has a contract with) and under this law, the buyer would appear to win as regardless of the problem with the courier, its unfortunately the seller's responsibility regardless and up to them to pursue RM through court action. The buyer can't sue RM, as they don't have a contract with them. I'd hate for it to get to that obviously.
Irrespective of this, I'm confident RM will cough up.
Last edited by mjgerrard; 3rd March 2018 at 02:19.
Oh and by the way, IANAL. I'm sure one will turn up shortly and shoot me down :)
I don't really see why this is a problem
Whenever I've received a RMSD in recent years I've been asked to sign for it on a digital machine, which stores my signature. Surely if the postie signed for it he wouldn't know what the buyer's signature looked like so it'd be easy to prove it wasn't his? Just a photo of the back of a couple of his credit cards or similar, compared to the digital signature on the delivery note, would prove for certain he didn't sign for the watch. Then go to RM with the evidence and they'll see it's their cock up and cough up the insurance cash.
Exactly. I don't see the problem.
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For everyone who's worried about shipping watches: simply ship to the local distribution center and make the buyer pick it up in person. It's the most secure way to do it. I only ship this way, and only accept watches this way.
What distribution centre? I wasn't aware this was an option for RM. So you buy a certain type of delivery that delivers to a distribution centre, and only a named individual can retrieve the item?
Not that I'm suggesting for one moment that the buyer is iffy at all, but with your idea the 'buyer' could squiggle anything on there, then say the item wasn't delivered and the signature would show that he/she hadn't signed for it as it isn't their signature. If this was planned, then it would be easy to do. That understandably won't fly if RM think about it for any length of time.
I'm in the USA, but yes - USPS can be delivered to your local post office with a "hold until picked up" direction. It stays locked up in the back until someone comes in to claim it with a government issued ID as proof. It all happens while being recorded as well. I'd be surprised if Royal Mail didn't allow a similar set up.
FedEx, UPS, and DHL all allow this sort of thing as well.
They don’t
But they will leave for collection after attempting to deliver... Which is what should have e happened here.
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After reading this through a question for the buyer.
The postman signing for parcels,is this an arrangement you have agreed with him and give him the ok to take the actions he did?
The bottom line is the postmen are getting lazy and not fulling the terms and conditions of RMSD which does not include leaving it with someone that doesn't live at the intended address or leaving it in a safe place on the of chance it will get to the owner.
Basically, Geoff - unless the recipient has a written agreement with the local PO (or unwritten agreement with the postie.) to leave elsewhere. Either is at the risk of the recipient.
Rather than pitting the buyer and seller against each other, it should be everyone vs RM on this one. They did not follow their own procedures, fraudulently signed a package as delivered, and facilitated a theft. Get the police involved immediately.
I really don’t think it’s that clear cut. The seller has proof that it was delivered because he has the signature. He could do no more so I’m not sure he would lose the case.
Hopefully it will all be sorted soon and to everyone’s satisfaction.
Assuming the above, i am mystified to understand how the buyer could win - because at the moment there is no evidence to suggest that the watch hasn’t been received, quite the contrary actually. So unless the buyer can show that nobody was in at the time when the watch was delivered, it will be the buyer who is left out of pocket.
Thankfully both parties are working together to get this resolved.
This is BS. RM postman has signed for a parcel he could not deliver and left it in a porch, because he could not be bothered to take it back to the Depo. RM are at fault. End of
Unless this is an agreement the postman has with the buyer because the buyer can't be bothered to go and collect his parcels.
Which then would be at the buyers risk.
https://personal.help.royalmail.com/...lery-in-the-uk
Sending valuables, money & jewellery in the UK
If you’re sending valuables, money or jewellery in the post, you should use Royal Mail Special Delivery Guaranteed®. This will enable you to claim compensation in the event of loss or damage. Valuables sent using any other service are not eligible for compensation.
Money should be packaged securely and should not be visible from the outside. Do not indicate anywhere on the packaging that money is enclosed.
Coins should never be sent in envelopes - our automated sorting machinery may damage envelopes containing coins, which can lead to delay in delivery and increase the likelihood of the contents being lost.
Our definition of money includes:
- coins & bank notes of any currency which are legal tender at the time of posting;
- postal orders, cheques and dividend warrants uncrossed and payable to bearer;
- unused postage and revenue stamps and National Insurance stamps; Exchequer bills, bills of exchange, promissory notes and credit notes; Bonds, bond coupons and any other investment certificates; and
- coupons, vouchers, tickets, tokens, cards, stamps and other documents which can be exchanged in whole or in part for money, goods or services.
Our definition of jewellery includes:any precious metal that has been manufactured in such a way as to add value to the raw material, including coins used for ornament;
- diamonds and precious stones
- watches - the cases of which are made wholly or mainly of precious metal
- similar articles with an intrinsic value other than the value of the workmanship.
Reading through, the watch has been safely delivered to the address provided by the buyer. It's after delivery that the problem has occurred, due to the postman being a bit stupid (well intentioned, but stupid)
Awful situation, I think both parties have to sit tight until royal mail have done their thing.
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What’s the buyer’s reply to this ?
It hasn't been "delivered" at all (unless the buyer had a written or ad-hoc arrangement with the PO/Postie - see posts above on this page)
Contract is between seller and PO.
But Buyer and Seller need to work together - to get a resolution (unless the buyer has given authorisation to leave packages in the porch)
(There are some strange perceptions on this site - probably fuelled by some sort of indignation)
One of the very few sensible reply’s.
I just make sure that items I’ve bought here are delivered to my workplace. I ask the seller to make sure the delivery will take place on a weekday when the office is open. Colleagues working the reception desk can accept the delivery and sign on my behalf. No issues there. I’ve also bought some watches in face-to-face transactions. Always good to meet fellow members.
No idea why the postman just didn’t leave the “you missed a delivery...” card and returned the package to the depot. From his or her perspective it doesn’t really matter whether the intended recipient is at home or not. Plus most Royal Mail or Parcelforce collection points are open late weekdays (up to 8pm?) and Midday on a Saturday.
It just seems bizarre that a postman would put him or herself at risk of dismissal by faking a customer’s signature instead of simply returning the package to the depot.
The assumption that any allegation against the Postman must be true is breath-taking. None of us has a single scrap of evidence to support that, or any other account. It reminds me of the Red Queen in Alice Through The Looking Glass:
'verdict first, evidence after.'
No agreement with the postie and can’t remember it happening in the past.
As others have said the claim is with Royal Mail now so will wait for their investigation to complete.
RM is at fault then hope you and the seller get this sorted ASAP
An observation . Within this thread is the potential for a serious libel. If the postman can be identified as a result of the thread, then both his integrity and ability to do his job honestly are being traduced. And if he is cleared by the RM, he, backed by his union, would appear to have a clear case to sue on the basis that his reputation has been badly , and wrongly damaged.
And who could blame him. Don't make serious, highly damaging, claims unless you are certain you could support them. I speak from some experience of these matters..
Has the buyer seen the online scan of the recipients signature and confirmed it’s not his? Surely seller just needs to send that confirmation to RM, and ask them to justify false signature applied?
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Have you used one of those handheld signature devices? Mine never look anything like my signature
But if the reliability of the buyers account is in question then any 'confirmation' by him of his signature is equally in question. That's the point...until there is a proper investigation assuming guilt against anyone involved is unwise. We don't know.
Unless someone is Blatantly lieing there is bugger all libel going on here. All other background noise is supposition.
It's just a matter of time...
Libel is not about lying. You could honestly believe a statement and that wouldn't be a defence.
The issue is the effect on the complainants reputation . And if you believe that accusing a postman of forging a signature on a special delivery package isn't damaging to his reputation.....
Anyway. I used to get paid for this, and I'm done.
Last edited by paskinner; 3rd March 2018 at 12:28.
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