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Thread: Warning: epidemic of much better fakes that have fooled many in the trade

  1. #101
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    The burning question is will this put people off private sales and we all end up buying only from a knowledgeable dealer and then selling it back to the trade when flip time arrives because no one will buy from us.

    Would you buy from the SC ? The sellers may be honest but if they themselves bought privately, who knows if the thing is genuine or not.

    The one thing I would never do from this day on is accept something through the post. I would only buy from the house or workplace of a private seller and that would be non negotiable.

    It's sad that it has come to this but it had to happen, fakes are now very very good.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Just FYI my written reports on behalf of the police, asset recovery teams etc (which can extend to six pages of text on a single watch) have never been been disputed in a court of law or even argued in correspondence. I would love it if a supposed expert were silly enough to take instruction to defend this watch as genuine, because his reputation would shortly afterwards be rightly destroyed. I’m not perfect and certainly don’t deserve the status you kindly suggest, but some things can be established beyond argument.
    Indeed - but that's why I said that it "could" be challenged in court, not that I'd expect anybody to actually do so. (Then again, I imagine that James Dowling never expected anybody to challenge him. Not that I'm suggesting any similarity here!)

  3. #103
    And the more fakes bought give them the money to invest in better machining processes to iron out the imperfections...

  4. #104
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    I would only buy from an AD or a well know bricks and mortar outfit.

    Even buying from a friend is risky as they may have been duped.

    I’m sure there are people on this form unknowingly wearing fakes.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipK View Post
    Indeed - but that's why I said that it "could" be challenged in court, not that I'd expect anybody to actually do so. (Then again, I imagine that James Dowling never expected anybody to challenge him. Not that I'm suggesting any similarity here!)
    Only so far as it “could” be argued in court that black is white, too.

    Dowling - best I don’t write one of the many things I’m thinking on that score.

  6. #106
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    Life has to go on, and we have to be able to buy and sell. After this, I don't think I'd buy a newish Rolex privately; but against that, I recently sold a....genuine...Daytona. If trust dies, so does trade. What to do?

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    Life has to go on, and we have to be able to buy and sell. After this, I don't think I'd buy a newish Rolex privately; but against that, I recently sold a....genuine...Daytona. If trust dies, so does trade. What to do?
    If this replica thing takes off the trust will have been killed, it is as simple as that.

    I would not trust you and I would not expect you to trust me as we are buying something that only a very few of us can verify as genuine.

    If you play safe and go to buy and then sell back to a dealer, then you will be safe, but it will be a lot more expensive for us.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    I assume the police were called, as this was a clear attempt at fraud? ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    ... Did you call the Police?
    Quote Originally Posted by 2012 View Post
    ... Did you call the police? Certainly, if video footage was taken, then the police should be informed in my view. ...
    Come on guys... ever heard of burden of proof?
    Last edited by PJ S; 13th January 2018 at 19:19.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    If this replica thing takes off the trust will have been killed, it is as simple as that.

    If you play safe and go to buy and then sell back to a dealer, then you will be safe, but it will be a lot more expensive for us.
    But what if the dealer was initially fooled? Or, even worse, a crook . It could happen where large sums are involved. This is a hall of mirrors. Trust is everything in any business.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    This afternoon Beaker from The Muppet Show (or his incarnation in human form) tried to sell this watch to one of my companies:
    Well done, i`d only have been suspicious if he`d tried selling you a Kermit...

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by amcneill View Post
    Hats off to the fakers - it's amazing what they can do and very worrying.you tend to think of them as ramshackle cheap labour crap but these guys must almost be on a par with the real manufacturers - cnc machines,proper watchmakers etc..

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    Given that they can make almost perfect copies that retail at a few hundred pounds it rather begs the question of what profit margin Rolex are operating on......

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    Once people start using the terms "replica", "rep" or "tells" it's a sure sign they are into the counterfeit scene.
    Never denied it. You'd probably be surprised in the crossover of forum users between the two. Nothing wrong in educating yourself or being aware of the situation. However I'd certainly challenge you to find a single post or picture of mine claiming a fake as a genuine watch or attempting subterfuge in regards to a watch.

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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    But what if the dealer was initially fooled? Or, even worse, a crook . It could happen where large sums are involved. This is a hall of mirrors. Trust is everything in any business.
    This has to be my last response for a while because I am off out to dinner. Just remember that Hitler tried to flood the UK with fake Pound notes because no one would trust no one else that the currency was legit and nothing would be bought or sold. He would have won the war without firing a shot.

    If the fakes are really becoming that good, then it is bad news all round. Even dealers could suffer for obvious reasons.

    Not good at all.

  14. #114
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    Mick, fakes are not new. Don’t worry about it old chap.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonesey View Post
    Never denied it. You'd probably be surprised in the crossover of forum users between the two. Nothing wrong in educating yourself or being aware of the situation. However I'd certainly challenge you to find a single post or picture of mine claiming a fake as a genuine watch or attempting subterfuge in regards to a watch.
    How many fakes do you own though ? Any pics ?

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Ally- View Post
    How many fakes do you own though ? Any pics ?
    In the two/three years I was heavily involved I owned 70-80 'high end' or franken pieces. Sold almost all about four years ago and left the "scene". Kept the ones that were either not worth it to sell or need some work. Did some research a few months ago and found two watches I thought I might like the genuine version of and bought them. So currently 8 "fakes" in my watch box.

    No pictures on here as it's a bit of a code of conduct on the replica forums not to.

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  17. #117
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    Thank you Haywood. Excellent reading. Although regarding my recent purchases, I will sleep easy tonight. 😊

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix View Post
    It often makes me wonder, where these fakes are even made. It appears that to manufacture something like this does take some decent technical capabilities and perhaps is not as difficult as swiss watch companies make it seem. In this case, I wonder if had they produced their own watch, at this level of quality, maybe they may have had a beter chance? Haha

    Regardless the level of quality fit and finish of this fake is really amazing and puts many "legit" watches to shame!
    Reef Tiger watches bore an amazing similarity to LW & Blancpain so I think they are trying to sell a "legit" line - or tax deduct the R&D and machinery investment.

    I suppose in many ways at least the fakers are "honest" vs those trying to pass off and sell as genuine.

    Does make you wonder what purpose the fake warranty cards are for if it is not a fraud kit though - hardly a "bit of fun", "seeing if I want to buy a real one" or any of the other justifications is it ?

  19. #119
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    Warning: epidemic of much better fakes that have fooled many in the trade

    Out of curiosity ... where are these ‘high end’ fakes now manufactured ? Are they still coming from the Far East ? Or are they now made closer to home e.g. in Europe with more advanced equipment, which would make it much easier to flow across borders?


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  20. #120
    Say for example I put my watch up for sale on SC, I could provide a sales receipt and an insurance valuation both in my name and addressed to me showing the date of purchase/serial number that matches the watch/card etc

    This could of course all be faked but I would feel confident that most on here would happily purchase the watch knowing it was not a fake/stolen

    I see no need to write off the secondhand market and shut down SC just yet :)

    The provenance is probably now even more important with fakes getting better and better, and of course reputation

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    I think you’re probably being optimistic here Paul. Haywood’s initial post shows that they’re not far away now and only getting better.

    It’s getting to the stage where the only way to be sure it’s genuine is to buy new from an AD (and even that’s not foolproof) which will kill the second hand market.
    I'm not sure it's quite that bad yet. There are still significant differences with the movements. I've never heard of a fake with a free sprung balance for example

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonesey View Post
    In the two/three years I was heavily involved I owned 70-80 'high end' or franken pieces. Sold almost all about four years ago and left the "scene". Kept the ones that were either not worth it to sell or need some work. Did some research a few months ago and found two watches I thought I might like the genuine version of and bought them. So currently 8 "fakes" in my watch box.

    No pictures on here as it's a bit of a code of conduct on the replica forums not to.

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    Go away.
    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    Go away.
    Been here longer than you mate.

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  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonesey View Post
    Been here longer than you mate.

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    Not my mate, no way.
    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  25. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonesey View Post
    In the two/three years I was heavily involved I owned 70-80 'high end' or franken pieces. Sold almost all about four years ago and left the "scene". Kept the ones that were either not worth it to sell or need some work. Did some research a few months ago and found two watches I thought I might like the genuine version of and bought them. So currently 8 "fakes" in my watch box.

    No pictures on here as it's a bit of a code of conduct on the replica forums not to.

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
    I think most people on here for a while are aware you are knowledgeable and have some history in the fake/Franken space - but also respect forum members general desire to keep the discussion, pics, etc. contained to genuine brand products.
    It's just a matter of time...

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    I think most people on here for a while are aware you are knowledgeable and have some history in the fake/Franken space - but also respect forum members general desire to keep the discussion, pics, etc. contained to genuine brand products.
    Like I said, don't hide it but I don't flaunt it either. If anyone has questions, happy to answer. Would 100% never want a genuine purchaser to get scammed on a fake piece.

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  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalMass View Post
    Given that they can make almost perfect copies that retail at a few hundred pounds it rather begs the question of what profit margin Rolex are operating on......
    Though the question is, how perfect is the copy? OK even the movement looks exactly the real thing, but does it work like the real thing??? If it does, then you do wonder what you get with the real thing. However, I suspect the reality is that it will won't be much good. However, to maintain the illusion that its a real one long enough for the fraudsters to hide their trails, it would have to work well enough for a while.....

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrGrumpy View Post
    Though the question is, how perfect is the copy? OK even the movement looks exactly the real thing, but does it work like the real thing??? If it does, then you do wonder what you get with the real thing. However, I suspect the reality is that it will won't be much good. However, to maintain the illusion that its a real one long enough for the fraudsters to hide their trails, it would have to work well enough for a while.....
    They are functionally the same movements. Just lower quality. So nowhere near the same level of reliability. Rolex have had since 1989 to perfect the 3135 movement. The Chinese have had less than four years of replication.

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  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonesey View Post
    Like I said, don't hide it but I don't flaunt it either. If anyone has questions, happy to answer. Would 100% never want a genuine purchaser to get scammed on a fake piece.
    Questions;

    -What attracts you to fakes over the real thing ?
    - If someone asked you if your watch was “real” what would you say ?
    - Do you wear fake items of clothing ?

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by amcneill View Post
    No.think about it - making something fake to this level is very impressive.they are not your cheap obvious fakes but designed to a level to deceive people who are in the business or enthusiasts like us.
    As a member of a watch forum for as long as I can remember and having seen the levels of deceit that have occurred over the years do you seriously think that any proper watch fan would find this impressive?
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonesey View Post
    In the two/three years I was heavily involved I owned 70-80 'high end' or franken pieces. Sold almost all about four years ago and left the "scene". Kept the ones that were either not worth it to sell or need some work. Did some research a few months ago and found two watches I thought I might like the genuine version of and bought them. So currently 8 "fakes" in my watch box.

    No pictures on here as it's a bit of a code of conduct on the replica forums not to.
    Conduct?

    Fake watches?

    Joke?
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Ally- View Post
    Questions;

    -What attracts you to fakes over the real thing ?
    - If someone asked you if your watch was “real” what would you say ?
    - Do you wear fake items of clothing ?
    Curiosity.

    Tell the truth.

    Nope.

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  33. #133
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    Thanks for answering.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonesey View Post
    Curiosity.

    Tell the truth.

    Nope.
    I don't believe any of your answers.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  35. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    I don't believe any of your answers.
    You know what? I do. He's being pretty open.
    You might not agree with what he does/owns/finds acceptable, but he could just as easily not be so upfront and deceive a lot of people.

    I personally don't see the point of owning a fake - ld rather just own the best genuine example of a thing that l can afford.

  36. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Itsguy View Post
    This may be true in a sense, and there’s always a clear financial incentive to make fakes. But Rolex also had to design and develop the actual watch in the first place, pay for marketing, run a dealer and service network, and so on. The faker doesn’t have these costs, they are a parasite using the reputation and spending of the real brand, and are stealing their intellectual property. So while the real brand may indeed have a large markup, and the additional markup of the bricks and mortar dealer on top of their wholesale price, we can’t simply conclude that they created the opportunity by overcharging. It may be true that some brands charge silly money for artificially scarce branded products, but it’s far from the whole story.
    .
    Completely agree, it’s their IP and the fakers are stealing it - what they’re doing is essentially criminal.



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  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derivative View Post
    Completely agree, it’s their IP and the fakers are stealing it - what they’re doing is essentially criminal.



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    IP theft is one of those hard to quantify issues. How many of those people who buy a £50 canal Street / pataya Rolex would go buy the real thing? Probably not even close to 1%. So Rolex have lost nothing, the fakers have generated an income flow where there was none before.

    In addition there has been a few papers written (on phone so can't link source) that show evidence that brand promotion through counterfeiting has actually been of benefit to a brands overall performance.

    That being said the vast majority of people buying a fake know they are, the issue is now that mainstream sources are now being duped where before it was relatively simple for a professional to spot a fake. Now you need to really be on the ball. The tiny minority of fakes that were good enough to pass muster were frankens or gensteins that required a lot of effort to pass off. This thread shows that even stock articles of modern watches are now so good that everyone needs to be aware.

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    Last edited by Bonesey; 13th January 2018 at 22:01.

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbongo View Post
    You know what? I do. He's being pretty open.
    You might not agree with what he does/owns/finds acceptable, but he could just as easily not be so upfront and deceive a lot of people.
    I also find the answers quite credible. Count me in as well, I'm no replica nerd but I own a few, and like them. I'm sure I'll have a few more in my time.

    People always conflate two separate things in these conversations - the despicable phenomenon of people cheating people with replica or fake watches, and the simple fact of buying, owning and wearing them, which is not dishonest. No, it isn't.

    Other frequent questions are:

    Why can't you save up and buy a real IWC, Omega, Rolex etc?
    Why don't you just buy a homage instead?

    In my own case the answer to both is that I already have several, but others' experience may vary.

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogroover View Post
    I also find the answers quite credible. Count me in as well, I'm no replica nerd but I own a few, and like them. I'm sure I'll have a few more in my time.

    People always conflate two separate things in these conversations - the despicable phenomenon of people cheating people with replica or fake watches, and the simple fact of buying, owning and wearing them, which is not dishonest. No, it isn't.

    Other frequent questions are:

    Why can't you save up and buy a real IWC, Omega, Rolex etc?
    Why don't you just buy a homage instead?

    In my own case the answer to both is that I already have several, but others' experience may vary.
    You, once again, attempt to legitimise the issue.

    The desire and wish to own one is not in itself, dishonest - it is a display of deceitful/walt behaviour, let's be clear, the high end stuff is more than the average person would ever spend on a watch, ever. to buy/wear one is nothing more than the watch equivalent of wearing a General's uniform when you are not a General.

    To try and habitually claim that buying one does not fund a wrongdoing or crime is pathetic and one you roll out every time the subject comes up.

    Heywood posted to educate and warn, not to support the situation.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  40. #140
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    The desire and wish to own one is not in itself, dishonest - it is a display of deceitful/walt behaviour, let's be clear, the high end stuff is more than the average person would ever spend on a watch, ever. to buy/wear one is nothing more than the watch equivalent of wearing a General's uniform when you are not a General.
    I have no dog in this fight, but I must say that is a very very silly argument. A watch is a watch. It is something bought by any old schmoe with a few quid, to suggest it's similar to something earned such as rank, dagger or wings is plainly bollocks.

  41. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by monogroover View Post

    People always conflate two separate things in these conversations - the despicable phenomenon of people cheating people with replica or fake watches, and the simple fact of buying, owning and wearing them, which is not dishonest. No, it isn't.
    I would suggest that once fakes like this exist, they can potentially "pollute" the legitimate supply of used watches. You may have no intention of abusing a good fake, but do you never ever sell one? Even if you openly sell it as a fake, will the next guy be so open? Does it end with someone thinking they buying the real thing, then discovering its worthless when he ties to sell or service it?

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowdon View Post
    Was the bezel ceramic? If so, that would be quite impressive and worrying. I understand manufacture of ceramic bezels is particularly difficult. The slightest defect and the bezel will shatter under normal fitting and operational use
    Lots of manufacturers have ceramic bezels nowadays, so it's not that big a deal.

    My understanding is that some colours or colour combinations are more difficult and costly but plain black is definitely no big deal.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by dobbsie View Post
    I have no dog in this fight, but I must say that is a very very silly argument. A watch is a watch. It is something bought by any old schmoe with a few quid, to suggest it's similar to something earned such as rank, dagger or wings is plainly bollocks.
    Ah, so buying a £5k watch from a high street store after wanting one for many years and treating oneself is different to buying one from a market stall?

    You place too much value on the 'dagger and wings' - illustrative and nothing more, if you struggle to understand this than so be it.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Lots of manufacturers have ceramic bezels nowadays, so it's not that big a deal.

    My understanding is that some colours or colour combinations are more difficult and costly but plain black is definitely no big deal.
    They can't get the green Hulk lv right but anything else is done almost perfectly.

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  45. #145
    The other day several posters said they don't mind buying watches that had been used for VAT fraud. Today there is a problem with buying fakes.

    Both are unacceptable. Nobody's faeces smell any nicer than the next.

  46. #146
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    Bonesey, How much would a Chinese Sub like the one in the OP cost, I guess quite a bit ?

    Wouldn’t you rather have one real watch than 5(?) fakes ?

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    I couldn't draw you a management organogram, but I would be sure that there is more than one person involved in the criminal distribution which seems to be current. There will also be lone operators, increasingly as these watches begin to hit the market more.
    Thanks.

    I was curious since the implication of your description of the wouldbe seller suggested to me that he was probably working on behalf of a team and had received training on how to act, but would probably not personally be a member of the team (an 'associate' rather than a member). It's just interesting to me how such operations structure themselves.

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Ally- View Post
    Bonesey, How much would a Chinese Sub like the one in the OP cost, I guess quite a bit ?

    Wouldn’t you rather have one real watch than 5(?) fakes ?
    I have a couple of nice watches mate and a good few sub £1k genuine watches, I'm not poor.

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  49. #149
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    You place too much value on the 'dagger and wings' - illustrative and nothing more, if you struggle to understand this than so be it.
    These are things earned through work so hard most will never comprehend, and require things that most don't possess. No shame in admitting if you're one of the many, just don't walt it. They are anything but "illustrative". A Rolex is a trinket, available to anyone with a half about credit history. Just a thing, like a TV or a car.
    Last edited by dobbsie; 13th January 2018 at 22:59.

  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbongo View Post
    You know what? I do. He's being pretty open.
    You might not agree with what he does/owns/finds acceptable, but he could just as easily not be so upfront and deceive a lot of people.

    I personally don't see the point of owning a fake - ld rather just own the best genuine example of a thing that l can afford.
    I agree.

    If this thread has proved anything it is that we, as lovers of genuine watches, need good, clear information on what to look out for and Bonesey is a useful source of that information.

    To victimise him appears to me to be naive, shortsighted and pointless, other than as a tool for certain persons' self-aggrandisement.

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