Reply With QuoteGood luck with the launch Piers, looking forward to seeing the watches at QP.
I wish you the best of luck with it Piers. I imagine it's tough doing what you've done. Perhaps I'll see you at SalonQP.
Good luck with the launch Piers, looking forward to seeing the watches at QP.
Good luck with your new venture! There are plenty of would have, could have and should haves in this world but few who risk it and give it a go!
For $3,000, I'll pass.
Good luck.
I like the look of the watch and I really admire that he is taking a risk when so many of us take the safe road.
Good luck, Piers.
Too many new and vintage options that I prefer for the money. Would have been nice to see better value for money like some german brands, damasko, sinn, archimede, etc? But its nice to see british endeavour good luck...
Just clocked the website, would recommend CADing up the side view, looks much more unique, interesting..?
I agree it very easy to sit behind a keyboard being critical but I think Piers deserves a lot of credit for having a dream and for trying to achieve it.Originally Posted by alljay
Starting a new brand is always going to be hard and I think you have to pitch the pricing and brand at where you want to be in the market. As an old man once told me it's always possible discount but very hard to suddenly charge more, Can't wait for QP to see them in the flesh. I for one would to say well done Piers and good luck
I realise it is very difficult process and regardless of the product/pricing I think the choice of name is awful.
Pinion?
You really have the chance of a Two Ronnies moment every time you say its name.
"What are you wearing there?"
"A Pinion"
"7/10"
Cheers,
Neil.
Perversely in the watch world that's not the way it works. Heavy discounting absolutely destroys a brand, whereas watch folk are largely accepting of a brand that charges more as it develops, matures and builds better and more complicated watches.
Assuming the manufacturing costs of ETA powered steel three-hander watches are broadly similar, the price difference is all profit (after covering magazine ads, trade shows etc). The watch at top would be possible to make a good profit on if it was 800 quid, and would be a lot more palatable to a lot more folk.
Perversely in the watch world that's not the way it works.
I really can't believe the pricing here, no disrespect to the founder but this really smacks of 'well if Nick and Giles can do it with Bremont then I will have a go' but this really is an uninteresting design (imho), no history, ETA movement and way overpriced.
BUT, fair play to the guy, anybody who has the get up and go to research what people want, design and create a product that looks solid and well built so not exactly rubbish! (just done before and too pricey) and make a good living from it in this day and age where there is so much competiton and not a lot of money flying around, is alright in my book, inspirational well done, its just not for me, and I suspect, the masses.
But it is exactly. You make a monotonous point that the only thing that sets apart the Swiss brands is the marketing and desirable branding. You can't have it both ways.
There are a few other costs to consider, strap quality £10-100 could be the variation here, case materials and manufacturing methods cast vs Machined ect and then the quality of the finishes. Components like buckles and hands and dials all vary hugely and of course any modifying of the movement. Plus every component is variable. Then the big one is probably sales channels. Manufacturer straight to consumer but if you plan to put it in a high street store their margins can make up nearly 50% of cost. It's easy to say its Jude ETA based watch but there is much more too it
But that's not what we're talking about here. This is an off-the-shelf ETA in a case that will, like Eddie's, originate as a Chinese case blank and then be finished in Europe. No complications, no modifications, just a straight three-hander.
Our host shows it as well as anyone else, but others like Steinhart produce very similar watches at the 400 to 600 quid range that are, to all intents and purposes, just the same.
It will live and die on marketing and sponsorship - we're not the target audience here.
Well said.
Bitonous as I make the same point about Seiko marketing GS and SD :-)
He could have added a story about it homaging a watch shown to him by the daughter of an old belgian farmer who had kept a watch given to him by his father given to him by a brit bloke the family nursed but who succumbed to the mosterd gas in the end.
But thén the heritage purists would have crucified him for thát too.
Can anyone still hear the echo from the Bremont beginnings? Whatever one thinks of that brand/watches, it has proven to be an addition to the palet of choises.
I hope he succeeds.
... and the market for watches is huge, the vast majority of which do not target the likes of us (generally)
Gray
Poor mans Bremont, or not so poor given the price tag, is there any association with Bremont here? This will not be a success story, IMVHO and from someone who has launched no product of any kind.
Quite.
It is interesting to have a look at the top ten sellers on the various international amazon sites: Puts our ever so often myopic idiot savantism in perspective.
The negativity in this thread is really depressing,
Piers, fair play to you for doing something others can only dream of, I very much hope you get stocked by the high and mighty and this turns into a true success story and you can expand your range quickly.
Web page needs a bit of tweaking some of it is illegible
I too find the general negativity in this thread somewhat stifling.
I wish Piers all the luck in the world.
It is perfectly possible to charge that much for a watch (even a simple three hander equipped with ETA) and make it a bargain, depending on all sorts of other cost influences such as movement grade and adjustment, case finishing, engraving and hardening treatments, quality and material of indices (applied or not) and the dial, crystal shape, quality, hardness and AR, hand quality and so on.
The fact that Timefactors produce and sell good watches for considerably less is totally immaterial.
If however, the Pinion watch specification (which we are at present relatively ignorant of) only matches other boutique brand offerings but at twice or thrice the price, then I'll be the first to start criticising.
But we simply don't know enough yet.
In the mean time I look forward to hearing more details, and applaud Piers for having the balls to start this enterprise.
D
Look the 'negativity' is just because the populous on tz are watch collectors and love originality and design. Its why we hang around here..
This is why Piers doesn't want to answer any more posts about his product. It BUSINESS he's pushing into, not about what a small bunch of collectors think. His strategy is about targeting a market, a key business strategy: and guess what, we sure aint in that category dudes.
I have to agree with Eddie in the point of 'make the thing so folk can see it, then sell it'. But its Piers business gamble, and business is just that.
I'm not a marketing expert so maybe someone can tell me where the logic is in revealing the price before the launch? ... and especially before the full package/specifications are revealed? I can't help thinking that's a mistake.
I understand that Piers wants to keep his powder dry for the SalonQP event and won't comment on the watch, and fair play, but the scant details revealed so far can only lead to speculation about the value on offer, and "X vs Y" comparisons.
It seems like a dangerous game to play to me, as anyone googling Pinion Watches (before or after the SalonQP launch) is likely to be hit with pages of criticism on the forums about the price/value; judgements made with only a fraction of the required information.
Time will tell I suppose, and in the meantime I wish Piers all the best with the launch and the brand.
Rich.
Got people talking though hasn't it?! As has been said before, we're not his target market. All credit to Piers for the progress so far. I'm looking forward to learning more.I'm not a marketing expert so maybe someone can tell me where the logic is in revealing the price before the launch? ... and especially before the full package/specifications are revealed? I can't help thinking that's a mistake.
I understand that Piers wants to keep his powder dry for the SalonQP event and won't comment on the watch, and fair play, but the scant details revealed so far can only lead to speculation about the value on offer, and "X vs Y" comparisons.
It seems like a dangerous game to play to me, as anyone googling Pinion Watches (before or after the SalonQP launch) is likely to be hit with pages of criticism on the forums about the price/value; judgements made with only a fraction of the required information.
Time will tell I suppose, and in the meantime I wish Piers all the best with the launch and the brand.
Rich.
More pleasant to look at than the 'Meridian' brand of watches ,better priced too but a little generic looking.
No standout feature from the picture shown and very little blurb to suggest otherwise.
Good luck to them all the same.
I suppose it's in the detail. If it competes technically with an £1100 Damasko, ice hardening, anti-mag and shock, Valjoux, patented gaskets, Viton,etc etc etc, and the superb engineering in a Damasko generally, then the extra cash would have to be worth the styling and Made In Uk. Or else what am I getting for my money?
I agree. Very negative thread and was the same with Meridian last year. Let's give them all a chance.
By offering opinions though, he's getting free market research, from his target market, I'd say it's a useful tool for him.
Well, as the TZ-UK members are nót his target market, the usefullness is limited.
As a long standing member, he would furthermore have been able to write the script of this predictable thread himself.
I'm sure everyone on this thread who has been negative would love to see them succeed. People are just being realistic though. Look at Meridian. I've no idea how many watches they've sold but one year on and their website has been down for weeks, the Meridian forum is dead, the Facebook page lies dormant and nothing is on twitter. From what I can work out, they've only got a single shop selling their watches in the entire world.... It's like all the naysayers predicted...
Agreed, there is potential to fail here.
But there is also potential to succeed, and it seems that the product has been written off by many posters before we know enough to make a judgement.
And I am not so convinced that the naysayers would like it to succeed.
The Damasko point is an interesting one, and I applaud Damasko's engineering, but at the same time there is plenty of room for "adding value" to their product. Damasko's dials are very simply (although very clearly) "printed", the packaging is very basic, the case finish industrial, the crystals flat. Adding significantly to the specification of each of these would make up the shortfall between £1100 and £2000 without too much problem.
D
Like I said all very negative.
There is a selective filter on your spectacles if all you see is negative in this thread.
The Daily Telegraph gives more information about the target market:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored...-qp-video.htmlPinion watches set for SalonQP launch
Pinion Watch Company, which aims to produce fine English-made timepieces for discerning gentlemen, launches at SalonQP 2013.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
But are we talking about the same product?
Giles says in his post :
I am trying to produce as any aspects of the watch here in the UK as possible, from the conceptual design - technical drawings, cad, case, components, dial printing, case treatments, even case and box plus assembly and testing... Believe me this is not easy - but I think the quality of all will be a reflection on the final watch... It will be of the highest quality possible.
This is where the money is, I think they will probably be a few classes above Steinhart quality...
All the very best Giles, I really hope you do very well.......
Most of the micro brands follow the same chinese derived pattern and as such compete in a similar market, if Giles has decided that common heritage is not for him and is doing as he says then why not charge accordingly?
Cheers..
Jase
Agree, we all know what the feeling is here about advance ordering, but many posts on this thread seem to suggest that we WIS are not the target market. This sounds totally illogical to me, only a completely batty WIS would ever even contemplate such an idea.
I can't even begin to imagine what the non-WIS watch buying general public would think of this idea... You pay us now, and we deliver possibly sometime in around 18 months from now. And by the way, we are a new start-up company with no trading record.
I think they would laugh in your face.
I hope Peirs has really thought this through, and goes on to prove me wrong, I wish him luck, he's going to need it.
Exactly, some companies would pay a fortune for this kind of research, negative or not he can and should learn a lot of this feedback.
Peirs would also do well to read the recent thread on the new gasgasbones start-up venture, I don't recall any negativity in that thread at all. Should help him get some balance on the opinions voiced here in this thread.
Negative? Maybe. Realistic? Yes. This is an open forum where people can give honest opinions about the subject. If you only want to read opinions that blow smoke up Piers' arse, go visit the Pinion facebook page.
As a designer myself negative feedback is part of the process, and like water off a ducks back. More than used to being critiqued. As long as it has some constructive element it can be more helpful than praise....
I have seen many in corporate life that can't deal with a fraction of the criticisms levelled at designers. So I would expect Piers to be pretty thick skinned...?
Last edited by 2kilo; 6th October 2013 at 16:44.
Piers actually PM'd me to explain why he thought his product should be pitched at this level. I remain unconvinced but he did say "wait and see once its launched" which is fair enough. I would probably wait and see until someone gets one, gets the back off and compares with other watches in the price segment, but fair play to him for maintaining a dignified position.
It comes in a solid gold box..?
I'm not blowing smoke up anyone's arse ( charming turn of phrase btw) but there does seen to be a pattern. New Uk brand and it gets lots of unsupportive comments. No one has seen one yet and most if the comments last year about Meridian were also from people who had not actually seen one.... All I'm saying is let's give them a chance.
2k is small beer to be honest.
Exactly.....
Cheers..
Jase
Hard to see the added value, just compared to a C.Ward COSC certified ETA 2824 C60 at £675.
With the Paneria homage font and baton hands, my first guess would be it was a Parnis.
Last edited by J J Carter; 6th October 2013 at 20:29.
Good luck to Piers and anyone else who takes the plunge. Starting a business takes a lot of balls and persistence I know. I don't care for the Bill Yao method of business either there were a couple other flops over at WUS using that strategy Olivier the recent one.
Tesco sells clothes for a fraction of the price of most British-made clothing companies, but, given the choice, I think I know what I'd rather buy.
Sure, I think we all would, but would you pay for your clothes a year to 18 months in advance of taking delivery, never having seen what the actual finished product looks like? Do you buy your clothes only having seen an artists impression of what they look like? ....and from a company who has never made clothes before?
Last edited by Meinessex; 6th October 2013 at 20:41.
Nope. I'm going to SalonQP to see Pinion (and many other brands) instead. Seems like the sensible thing to do... plus, it'll probably be quite fun too.
Come on, let's get behind the guy, he's one of us !
Cheers..
Jase
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