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Thread: In-House obsession

  1. #1
    Master
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    In-House obsession

    Why is it, in-house is applauded and held in such high esteem by some? why is it, usually the same level of negativity is dropped onto those who aren't in-house makers?

    If the end merchandise is good by outsourcing parts, what’s wrong with that? It's what all car makers do and they usually cost us rather more than our watches :? Let's not forget also the electrical goods we buy, outsourced components generally. The best Hi-Fi is usually a hotchpotch of makers, no one manufacturer excelling at all the components needed to create the perfect sound.

    I simply don't grasp or believe that by (allegedly) making every screw and spring in-house means you end up with a better product, regardless of price or indeed what ever it is.

    At best it seems to me to be snobbish :?:

  2. #2
    Master
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    Re: In-House obsession

    I think it's driven more by the availability of good quality 'third-party' movements. For example, manufacturers who had until recently been able to source movements from (Swatch owned) ETA, are now unable to do so.

  3. #3
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    Re: In-House obsession

    I don't get the obsession, but do admire those that make everything in-house .. for me the 1st thing that I look for in a watch is the dial, if I like that then the movement is next. Anyhow, marques which modify someone else's movement, adding not only accuracy, function, robustness & aesthetics are to be applauded. My only gripe is those marques who use the base movement, make no (or minor) modifications & then charge a premium ..
    /vince ..

  4. #4
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowman
    Why is it, in-house is applauded and held in such high esteem by some? why is it, usually the same level of negativity is dropped onto those who aren't in-house makers?

    If the end merchandise is good by outsourcing parts, what’s wrong with that? It's what all car makers do and they usually cost us rather more than our watches :? Let's not forget also the electrical goods we buy, outsourced components generally. The best Hi-Fi is usually a hotchpotch of makers, no one manufacturer excelling at all the components needed to create the perfect sound.

    I simply don't grasp or believe that by (allegedly) making every screw and spring in-house means you end up with a better product, regardless of price or indeed what ever it is.

    At best it seems to me to be snobbish :?:
    I agree in a way but for me, I enjoy the idea that a company today has managed to create the final product within it's own four walls, so to speak. It's romantic and perhaps illogical, but I like that part of Horology and one of the many reasons I love Seiko so much.

  5. #5

    Re: In-House obsession

    I'm not sure I'd chalk up (all of) this to snobbery as there is something very satisfying about having a watch made entirely in house. Usually there is history associated with the in house movement as it has evolved rather than been created in recent times. It is one of those intangibles to a certain extent but I'd appreciate knowing that a master watch maker has been responsible for everything from the case to its contents

    Would I suggest that in house movements are always superior to bought in parts? No because it is "horses for courses". Bought in parts can reduce the overall cost of a watch which is to the benefit of all so long as the quality doesn't take a knock. In house movements do seem to be more beautifully decorated than mainstream movements though and this can be more rewarding in those moments spent just gazing at a gorgeous watch :) Of course we can say that bought in movements have in some cases many years of proven reliability so it depends what the purchaser is after...

    However it's my understanding that in house movements can be more intricate than mainstream movements and perhaps this is where they are viewed as superior, whether they are better looking or simply have a greater number of jewels? Is it just the engineering that is viewed as that little bit more special?

  6. #6
    Master Christian's Avatar
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    Re: In-House obsession

    It's not something that has ever bothered me. I enjoy my Breitling as much as my Rolex. Totally in agreement about the brands that stick a base movement in, maybe engrave a name on the rotor then charge a premium... :twisted:

  7. #7
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    Re: In-House obsession

    In industry there is always an argument for being a master of your own destiny and not having to rely on third parties for any major component. However, I do appreciate that if you have to make everything in house, unless the market supports it, the cost could escalate to a point where it just doesn't make commercial sense any more. I have seen this happen in the CRT (cathode ray tube) industry and in the general lighting industry where in the past virtually everything bar the packaging was manufactured in house. IMO, once you have lost the manufacturing skills, they are difficult to get back again. I guess the same applies to the watch industry to some extent and only a few brands can command the necessary prices to cover the cost of doing everything in-house ...perhaps :wink:

  8. #8
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Fair points so far. I don't recall the required percentage of actually Swiss made components to qualify for 'Swiss Made' on the dial but it is very small iirc. I wonder how much license there is on that with 'in-house'?

    I'd wager those who claim to make it all, especially including leather straps may be, cough, exaggerating :wink:

  9. #9
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowman
    Why is it, in-house is applauded and held in such high esteem by some? why is it, usually the same level of negativity is dropped onto those who aren't in-house makers?
    When you are dealing in expensive items exclusivity will always come into it IMO.

    I would always prefer a watch with an inhouse movement but I don't have any negativity towards others that don't provided they charge the right price like Eddie and unlike say Doxa.

    I certainly lost interest in Omega when they went from their lovely in house movements to ETA. They are desperately trying to get back to those halcyon days.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowman

    If the end merchandise is good by outsourcing parts, what’s wrong with that? It's what all car makers do and they usually cost us rather more than our watches :? Let's not forget also the electrical goods we buy, outsourced components generally. The best Hi-Fi is usually a hotchpotch of makers, no one manufacturer excelling at all the components needed to create the perfect sound.
    Cars have a lot more parts than a watch which if somebody is putting one together is really only case, movement, dial/hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowman

    I simply don't grasp or believe that by (allegedly) making every screw and spring in-house means you end up with a better product, regardless of price or indeed what ever it is.

    At best it seems to me to be snobbish :?:
    I really hate it when that stupid word is bandied around on watch forums. :x

    Just because someone wants different (more expensive) stuff than me doesn't make them snobbish.

    I like my old Omegas and Rolexes and good luck to the Patek, AP etc owners. :)
    Cheers,
    Neil.

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    http://www.freewebs.com/neil271052

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    Grand Master Daddelvirks's Avatar
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    Re: In-House obsession

    As long as it runs precisely for a long time witout any hassle, it's no issue for me :) .

    Cheers,

    Daddel.
    Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!

  11. #11

    Re: In-House obsession

    I don't really mind either way but having a watch with an in-house movement comes with a certain reassurance.

    If you're to believe the marketing hype of the big manufacturers with all their first to invent this and that you believe the same legacy continues to go into their current range. This isn't the case when they're only designing cases, dials and hands and straps.

    Unfortunately now most of the innovative manufacturers went bust and now all that remains of them is a name, their heritage and brand strength. Take Brietling, Panerai or Tag as an example.

    You don't need to look hard on either manufacturers websites before you're immersed in a world of innovation, watch making history, passion but for the most part the same manufactures are making products not that don't push the boundaries of innovation but rather fill a price point in the market.

  12. #12
    Grand Master mr1973's Avatar
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Look what Breitling did with their 7750 movements. They belong to the most accurate movements out there, never heard of any bad experience with them so far...

    For me, the Valjoux is definitely one of the best chrono movements out there, I certainly wouldn't want to pay a premium just because it's in-house now.

    I've got the Daytona, the Speedy, one 7753 and a shedload of 7750's. They all perform pretty much the same, right between (+/-) 5 secs / 24h (on my wrist, mind you!).
    I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

  13. #13

    Re: In-House obsession

    I think it is a reflex reaction. I dont have any way I could aford a Patek, or a Corum golden bridge, or a fity fathoms, etc.for example. That doesnt mean I dont aspire to own one. Its not 'snobbery' to appreciate something that has been made by craftsmen to a high standard, where evey detail has been scrutinized and fettled. It's these apsects I, and no doubt many others appreciate. Im not interested in the 'hey look what I can afford' types flashing their wads around.

    Too much 'stuff' is mass produced in Asia, thrown out of factories at a prodigious rate, using up resources like they would never run out.

  14. #14
    Grand Master Glamdring's Avatar
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Too much 'stuff' is mass produced in Asia, thrown out of factories at a prodigious rate, using up resources like they would never run out.
    Yes but as you yourself implied, it's the only way most people can afford things.

  15. #15
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    Re: In-House obsession

    There is no real law governing the word in-house, therefore it is often too loosely used. When is a movement in house? If its designed and assembled in house? Or if everything down to the last screws are made from iron ore from the in house mine?
    If, hypothetically, I wanted an in house movement for my watch I was building, I could go to one of the many movement designers like Renaud et Papi who is owned by AP or a smaller operation like Paul Gerber. They would listen to what I wanted, design it to my liking, prototype and test it for me. Then I could for example go to ETA or one of the many smaller components / movement makers and they would build it for me according to the plans from the design firm. I could then call it my own in house movement, intellectual property. This is the way it is done mostly these days. Most watch houses only do assembly in-house if at all. Only the very large operators like Rolex or the eccentrics like Paul Gerber and the likes do everything in house or have the capacity to do so. It’s only a question of cost and what one is willing to lay out. ETA, due to their scale and size produce many of the so-called in-house movements or at least parts of them. Not only for their own brands within the swatch group, but for many others too. If you look up the AP/ Renaud et Papi site you will find nearly all the in house brands as their customers. Even Richard Mille! And Since AP purchased Renaud et Papi they have all their own in house calibres designed and produced in house now!
    Then of course you could bring up the argument that a limited in house calibre is less tested and proven than the top grade mass produced movements like IWC or Omega which are ETA based and have been produced for years and further developed.
    To me in house is a novelty, rare and costs a lot of money; you pay for exclusivity and the much smaller production numbers. Something unique with probably an added funtion that the ETA's don't have.
    But it does not all have to be very expensive; Revue Thommen, (Grovana) are due to the limited supply from ETA building their own budget in house calibres they developed in the 1950's and 1960's in large numbers and they are a welcome change from the ETA's. (But still built by ETA for them) :D
    Worth a look at.

  16. #16
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Snobbery. The decision to make-or-buy is an economic one, not a cultural one.

    And there's also this:

    ...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!

  17. #17
    Thomas Reid
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibetu
    But it does not all have to be very expensive; Revue Thommen, (Grovana) are due to the limited supply from ETA building their own budget in house calibres they developed in the 1950's and 1960's in large numbers and they are a welcome change from the ETA's. (But still built by ETA for them) :D
    Worth a look at.
    That's very interesting. Thanks.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  18. #18
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibetu
    There is no real law governing the word in-house, therefore it is often too loosely used.

    I think that point is the essence of of my question. In-house claims may be exaggerated :wink:

    The other stuff makes interesting reading though :shock:

  19. #19

    Re: In-House obsession

    I think the analogy with cars should be - is the engine bought in - because when it is - there are very few brands that are as well esteemed as the in-house brands (there are of course notibel exceptions). Noble make nice cars - but I am not going to buy one - lotus always buy in the engines - so a noteworthy comparison as a well regarded brand that sits at a premium just like soem of our loved watches. Also, Eddie's watches are designed and built to spec with the parts ordered.

    To me the movement is the engine and the case the body - buy in the hands - buy in the dials etc etc. but I'd do prefer an in-house engine (I accept that in samll productionthis is simply not possible though)- & in sayign that I have some lovely pieces with eta / val movements which I am quite happy with - but I do prefer my other pieces.
    It's just a matter of time...

  20. #20
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by rfrazier
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibetu
    But it does not all have to be very expensive; Revue Thommen, (Grovana) are due to the limited supply from ETA building their own budget in house calibres they developed in the 1950's and 1960's in large numbers and they are a welcome change from the ETA's. (But still built by ETA for them) :D
    Worth a look at.
    That's very interesting. Thanks.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

    Here is a nice site that shows them: http://www.since1853.co.uk/revue_thommen_gt_movements
    Revue will also mail out technical manuals for each of their movements free of charge!
    I have one of their GT55 movements incoming and will take some pics.
    They are in fact very basic movements and nothing out of the ordinary but its an alternative to ETA and not vintage.

  21. #21
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    Re: In-House obsession

    There's way too much snobbery surrounding "in-house" and "Swiss Made". One company claims a heritage since 1884, neglecting to mention the bankruptcy and change of ownership in the late 1960s. They also claim in-house movements yet use modified ETA and proudly proclaim "Swiss Made" whilst their cases are made in China with resident Swiss QA managers.

    Is there any other industry which behaves like this and is permitted - nay, encouraged - by acolytes to do so?

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  22. #22
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    There's way too much snobbery surrounding "in-house" and "Swiss Made". One company claims a heritage since 1884, neglecting to mention the bankruptcy and change of ownership in the late 1960s. They also claim in-house movements yet use modified ETA and proudly proclaim "Swiss Made" whilst their cases are made in China with resident Swiss QA managers.

    Is there any other industry which behaves like this and is permitted - nay, encouraged - by acolytes to do so?

    Eddie
    Illusions sell :lol: with a 1000% markup at list price :lol:

  23. #23

    Re: In-House obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by Glamdring
    Too much 'stuff' is mass produced in Asia, thrown out of factories at a prodigious rate, using up resources like they would never run out.
    Yes but as you yourself implied, it's the only way most people can afford things.
    Did I? You implied my implication Sir!!!! :lol:
    We (generality here) afforded things before the current state of affairs, or didnt have them! just aspired to them (or not) And now, we still cant afford things. Its just that now our aspirations are different thanks to global marketing. Is that good?

  24. #24
    Master lysanderxiii's Avatar
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    Re: In-House obsession

    I prefer to stay away from "in-house" movements (except for vintage American watches).

    Why?

    Parts availability. With in-house movements, the availability of spare parts is 1) limited, 2) expensive,or both. In-house manufacturers, generally do not allow large numbers of spares to float around, then charge an arm and a leg for servicing at an authorized service center.

  25. #25

    Re: In-House obsession

    ^ Now theres an good alternative view point, and of course, very relevant when buying an older example.....

  26. #26

    Re: In-House obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic
    I think the analogy with cars should be - is the engine bought in - because when it is - there are very few brands that are as well esteemed as the in-house brands -(there are of course notibel exceptions).
    Dangerous analogy IMO. How about BMW engines in Rolls, Fiat Engines in Fords, VW engines in Bentley.

    The sharing of platforms, engines and components between major competitors is normal. Many engines and platforms are designed by external consultancies and built in third party factories.

    Whole cars are built by Steyr, current production includes BMW X3, Saab Cabrio, Chrysler 300C..... I think they are contracted to build some next generation Porsches as well.

  27. #27

    Re: In-House obsession

    I like in house movements (when it really is in house) because the movement is the most difficult part to manufacture (I think at least) and I like to have watches where the movement is in house, Not that ETA movements are not very good, but when there is only 1 movement maker supplying quality mass produced movements to other watch manufactures its not very good is it really.

  28. #28
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    There's way too much snobbery surrounding "in-house" and "Swiss Made". One company claims a heritage since 1884, neglecting to mention the bankruptcy and change of ownership in the late 1960s. They also claim in-house movements yet use modified ETA and proudly proclaim "Swiss Made" whilst their cases are made in China with resident Swiss QA managers.

    Is there any other industry which behaves like this and is permitted - nay, encouraged - by acolytes to do so?

    Eddie
    I suppose a parallel would be, is a BMW X5 made in South Carolina USA, or a Mercedes Benz made in South Africa still a German car?

  29. #29
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    Re: In-House obsession

    And in reply to the original question, it matters not one jot to me whether the movement was "in house" or not. If I like the watch and the reputation for reliability and precision is there then I am happy to believe that the watch manufacturer will only buy in movements that measure up to their standards and are therefore or an equal standing (naively perhaps?)

  30. #30
    Grand Master Daddelvirks's Avatar
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    Re: In-House obsession

    It also depends on how fast you "flip" a watch I think.
    If watches usually don't stay longer than a few years, exotic movements and brands are not a problem.
    But if you listen to the slogans and want to keep your beauty alive and ticking for the next generation, it's good to know that a local watchmaker is also capable of getting his hands on vital parts.
    I guess my three Unitas based watches shouldn't be a problem for a self respecting watchmaker :) .

    Cheers,

    Daddel.
    Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!

  31. #31
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Ironic that Omega are starting the move back to 'in house' movements. Plenty of 50s & 60s vintage ones about......all with in-house movements which look nice too!

    Paul

  32. #32
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    There's way too much snobbery surrounding "in-house" and "Swiss Made". One company claims a heritage since 1884, neglecting to mention the bankruptcy and change of ownership in the late 1960s. They also claim in-house movements yet use modified ETA and proudly proclaim "Swiss Made" whilst their cases are made in China with resident Swiss QA managers.

    Is there any other industry which behaves like this and is permitted - nay, encouraged - by acolytes to do so?

    Eddie

    Its dirty business!
    Not one company, but an industry most of them and the most exclusive being the worst of all with the truth. A few of them tried to do it right but that's difficult. The problem is the International Law or the agreement between the EU and Switzerland these days. That is the one and only reason that the Swiss Made label was not tightend as proposed by the large Swiss watch groups. To protect EU companies that supply the Swiss firms, Switzerland bowed to the pressure of the EU. It's a political issue. This is also very welcome to the small and medium Swiss watch manufacterers as it makes it possible to use more for Chinese supplies. At the same time all the brands like Revue Thommen, Doxa, Wyler Geneve, Heuer and the whole lot using history to sell. Liars at best rather than being honest, but its also the consumer that buys it blindly. I think all sense goes out the window when it comes to luxury products. Buying into a dream rather than reality.
    Off topic, Diamonds, if you have seen the movie blood diamond and the countless newspaper reports then you have witnessed reality, not just a movie and a good story but very close to reality. Does it stop anyone buying Diamonds? No.
    Diamond crusted watches are very big sellers and a huge dream industry of its own.

  33. #33
    Master
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Movements OK but an entirely in house watch? Surely apart from Seiko (or perhaps Rolex?) this is a myth and the analogy with the automotive industry is a good one. Just look at how many different cars have Bosch electronics, Hella lamps, Sachs dampers and clutches etc. etc. When you dig deeper you find that just about any component on a modern car is nearly always made by no more then a couple of companies which in turn supply all of the major car manufacturers. I read somewhere that the same is true of the watch industry, ask yourself who makes the sapphire crystals, the case gaskets etc etc. I read an article a little while back that seemed to suggest that all the swiss watch companies buy crystals from the one producer.

  34. #34
    Grand Master Glamdring's Avatar
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Yet doubtless we will carry on praying at the altar of the goddess Swiss...

  35. #35
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Or in fact Seiko who do everything in house from the humble 7s26 to the spring drive.

    They are a behemoth though.
    Cheers,
    Neil.

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    http://www.freewebs.com/neil271052

  36. #36
    Craftsman
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    Re: In-House obsession

    I think it's just the idea that you're buying from a watch-making company and not simply a case manufacturer. This is why vintage watches tend to interest me more- Longines, for example, once made fabulous watches with wonderful movements. Now are they really doing anything that Eddie can't do? (horologically, at least- I dont think he could quite manage the sponsorship deals)- so are they really a Longines anymore?

    So I prefer in-house for that reason. But I have no problem with manufacturers working over an ETA, like BRM, say. If they're putting man-hours into the movement, then it deserves added kudos that doesnt come by bulk-ordering movements to put in your case.

  37. #37
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by Ari
    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    There's way too much snobbery surrounding "in-house" and "Swiss Made". One company claims a heritage since 1884, neglecting to mention the bankruptcy and change of ownership in the late 1960s. They also claim in-house movements yet use modified ETA and proudly proclaim "Swiss Made" whilst their cases are made in China with resident Swiss QA managers.

    Is there any other industry which behaves like this and is permitted - nay, encouraged - by acolytes to do so?

    Eddie
    I suppose a parallel would be, is a BMW X5 made in South Carolina USA, or a Mercedes Benz made in South Africa still a German car?
    Not really, neither BMW nor Mercedes conceal the origin of their products.

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  38. #38
    Master
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    Re: In-House obsession

    It would be interesting to know what has happened with the movements within Tudor. For a long time they were ETA, modified by Rolex. There was a rumour going around a couple of years ago they were going in house. Given the supply issues with ETA these days one wonders what is or will be inside Tudor.

  39. #39
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by Ari
    I suppose a parallel would be, is a BMW X5 made in South Carolina USA, or a Mercedes Benz made in South Africa still a German car?
    For duty purposes, BMW's Rosslyn plant in SA is treated as a European plant. It also produces the least error-prone cars in the whole BMW group. Dunno about Mercs (some of which are built in East London, IIRC, including most RHD variants).

    All BMW cars built outside the Fatherland have their engines supplied by plants in Germany, Austria or the UK, which is where BMW builds them. Dunno if this is any kind of analogy to the watch world, though.
    ...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!

  40. #40
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by glazba
    I think it's just the idea that you're buying from a watch-making company and not simply a case manufacturer. This is why vintage watches tend to interest me more- Longines, for example, once made fabulous watches with wonderful movements. Now are they really doing anything that Eddie can't do? (horologically, at least- I dont think he could quite manage the sponsorship deals)- so are they really a Longines anymore?
    Good point, well put.
    Cheers,
    Neil.

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  41. #41
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    Re: In-House obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by glazba
    I think it's just the idea that you're buying from a watch-making company and not simply a case manufacturer. This is why vintage watches tend to interest me more- Longines, for example, once made fabulous watches with wonderful movements. Now are they really doing anything that Eddie can't do? (horologically, at least- I dont think he could quite manage the sponsorship deals)- so are they really a Longines anymore?
    Would it be better to eliminate all of these brands that don't manufacture in-house - sorry, stifling a big yawn there - to satisfy some purists' narrow definition of legitimacy? (Hint: the answer is no)

    You're thinking about this a hundred times too hard. May I suggest moving to France? :D
    ...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!

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