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Thread: Inside a Seagull 1901

  1. #1
    Master lysanderxiii's Avatar
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    Inside a Seagull 1901

    As a follow-up to the ????? 3133 versus Valjoux 7734 thread, I though I'd take a peek inside a Seagull 1901 chronograph, as that is what is currently being used in the PRS-5.

    Technical details: The Seagull 1901 is a 23 jewel, column wheel controlled, chronograph, lever movement operating at 21,600 bph. It has a running second dial at the 9 o'clock position, a 30 minute counter sub-dial at 3 o'clock, and a sweep second counter mounted centrally along with the timekeeping minute and hour hands. The chronograph functions are controlled through two buttons, one (at 2 o'clock) for starting and stopping the chronograph, one (at 4 o'clock) for resetting the second and minute counters. The column wheel prevents the action of the reset while the chronograph is running.

    The 23 jewels are in the following locations:

    Balance staff - 2 bearing, 2 cap, total 4
    Impulse - 1
    Pallet - 2
    Pallet pivot - 2
    Escape wheel pivots - 2
    4th wheel pivots - 2
    3rd wheel pivots - 2
    Center wheel pivots - 2
    Top Chronograph second counter pivot - 1
    Top Chronograph minute counter pivot - 1
    Slider Gear pivots - 2
    Intermediate minute counter wheel pivots - 2

    Here is the front, with the typical Chinese front plate. This does nothing but increases the thickness of the movement and retains the hour wheel (Something the Swiss prefer to do with the dial.)



    And, the back, many have probably seen a better view on the Timefactor's page.



    Some may not know what exactly a column wheel is, or how it works. So, here we have a close-up of the column wheel: (pardon the grease)

    Chronograph engaged


    Chronograph disengaged


    As you can see, the column wheel is castellated, each function is controlled by an arm that has a nose that either fits in between the castellations, or is forced out from them. This keeps you from resetting while the chronograph is running, and such, and gives the column wheel chronograph its smooth action. You may also note that the noses are rather slight, but donít worry that you will bend one, the action of the buttons does not bring direct force against these small delicate parts.

    At the far left, is the start/stop lever, when the start button is pushed, the pawl moves out ward and rotates the column wheel clockwise one step. This will allow the nose of the slider gear carrier to drop in between two of the castellations and engaging the slider gear and the chrono-second wheel starting the chronograph (first figure). This will also block the hammer from falling (see the hammer nub at about 1 oíclock retaliative to the column wheel. Pushing the start button a second time (as in the second picture) will rotate the column wheel another step and the advancing castellation will force the slider gear carrier nose out disengaging the chronograph and freeing the hammer to fall. The hammer has its own sear triggered by the reset button not seen here.

    Here are all the chronograph function parts. A comparison to the VAL 7734 and Poljot 3133 will reveal this has more parts (nearly 40% fewer on the cam action chronograph). From left to right: bottom row (screws not detailed): start/stop lever, start/stop spring, slider gear carrier spring, slider gear carrier and slider gear, hammer spring, hammer; second row: reset lever spring, reset lever, hammer sear, hammer sear spring, brake lever, intermediate minute wheel carrier and brake lever spring, intermediate minute wheel carrier and wheel, column wheel spring, column wheel; top row: chronograph bridge, minute counter wheel (below) chronograph second wheel.



    Here is just the movement minus the chronograph parts



    And the gear train



    The balance with a nicely formed hairspring



    Close-up of the pallet fork



    The tension spring for the second hand



    Layout of the basic time parts



    The keyless works disassembled



    Close-up of the escape wheel



    A close-up of the balance cock and anti-shock setting





    Anti-shock jewels



    The movement is well made and runs extremely well, this one was time to run, on average, 7 s/d. I runs very consistent. The chronograph functions are relatively light and crisp, unlike the Poljot 3133 and Valjoux 7734.

    The Swiss have, in my opinion, missed a boat by ceasing the production of handwinding two resister chronographs and focusing exclusively on automatics. Most of the chronograph market (90% or more) use the 7750 or el Premiro, the 7750 (or a variant) for the low to middle price range, the el Premiro for the higher price range.

    The workmanship on these movements is better than the run-of-the-mill Chinese ST16 and DG28, The gears are slightly thicker and the teeth, especially the fine teeth of the chronograph second wheel, are clean and well formed. The adjustments of the chronograph functions (slider gear mesh on both sides, and intermediate minute wheel engagement) was adequate, but the second hand jumped slightly on engagement. Not all that bad, though.

    I like this movement, I hope to see Seagull come out with a date (at six) or an actual hour counter version in the future. Then someone can do a Benrus Skychief homage. Also, it might be possible to do true "fly-back" version, this would be nice.

    The finish is not the movementís strong point, this is my only gripe, and a relatively minor one. The Geneva stripes are rather coarse and uneven. These have been made with a fly-cutter, not grinding compound and a disk and the cross-feed was to high. The screws are chemically blued and almost baby blue in color, not the preferable blue-black of a good charcoal blue. There was to my surprise pearlage on the exposed portion of the mainplate around the balance, but it was so light I didnít notice it until examining the mailplate under a loupe.




  2. #2
    Master
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Another one destined for the Classic Posts it seems :wink:

    Great job Lysander!

  3. #3
    Grand Master Jonmurgie's Avatar
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    WOW... thanks for taking the time to make this post :D

  4. #4
    Master doug darter's Avatar
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Thanks once again. An excellent article, and very, very interesting. It will please the PRS 5 owner here. Keep them coming :D

  5. #5

    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    What a wonderful post. This must go in the classic post forum.

  6. #6
    Master Jim:'s Avatar
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Well done indeed.

    Thanks for posting.

    Jim :)

  7. #7
    Master markosgr28's Avatar
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Wow, I love this stuff! Thanks for posting.

    Best Regards,
    Markos

  8. #8
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Another excellent and enjoyable article Lysander. Thanks for taking the time to do it. :)
    Best Regards - Peter
    Please Note: It is possible that Griswold may know nothing whatsoever about horology. It's even possible that he has never even owned a watch. It is also highly possible the he has a strange imagination. His wife insists he would be far better off paying more attention to taking his medication on time.

  9. #9
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Superb!

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  10. #10

    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Another great post. You're certainly on a roll, lysanderxiii!

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  11. #11
    Grand Master
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Wonderful review Lysander! Thank you very much for that.

    Incredible movement (given the price) imho!
    We can't stop here, this is bat country.


  12. #12

    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Excellent read. Thanks for the info.

  13. #13
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Fantastic explanation and great pictures. Thanks for that !
    Cheers, Gerry :thumbright:

  14. #14
    Craftsman ChronoCop's Avatar
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Wonderful, thanks Lysander! Might help buying decisions at Eddie's as well.
    Cheers
    Brane

  15. #15
    Grand Master Daddelvirks's Avatar
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Thanks for that!

    That was very interesting, and lovely pics as well.
    It seems that with a little more care this movement can be on par with it's Swiss brothers :) .

    Cheers,

    Daddel.
    Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!

  16. #16
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Fantastic post, great learning material and pictures. Thanks a million!

  17. #17
    Master studs's Avatar
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Excellent photographs and descriptions... another very good post, thank you for sharing.

  18. #18

    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Excellent, many thanks

  19. #19
    Grand Master WORKSIMON's Avatar
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Brilliant post, brilliant pictures, just brilliant, thanks for sharing.

    Cheers

    Simon
    Cheers

    Simon



    Ralph Waldo Emerson: We ask for long life, but 'tis deep life, or noble moments that signify. Let the measure of time be spiritual, not mechanical.

  20. #20
    Master
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Worth a bump to the top for those who haven't seen it.

  21. #21
    Master
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Nice review - as usual.

    HEY EDDIE. Maybe with the financial melt down occurring in China also, you might be able to get a deal on more of these for the PRS-5 ??? Get yourself a deal, and try to keep their factory workers busy, before they have to let them go back to the farms (seriously - all the people that were brought in from the country to work in the factories are now being told to go back to the farm for lack of work, but that means people who were just becoming skilled are being lost). Oh, and if you do get a deal on them, think about passing the savings onto us! :twisted:

  22. #22
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Very informative post and helpful. Many thanks. Superb!

    Best wishes,
    AP.

  23. #23
    Master Sharky's Avatar
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Great post, thanks!!

    Mark

  24. #24
    Master Rinaldo1711's Avatar
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Most enjoyable and very informative - thanks!

  25. #25

    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    outstanding!! Thanks

  26. #26

    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Thanks for the break down, I have one of these that runs +3 seconds a day every day, and i am very pleased with it. I would hapily have more with this movement. I feel more and more every day about totaly turning my back on swatch and ETA, I feell sure that i can get every complication that i would like to use from other sources, with the exception of one i am yet to see a good GMT funtion from china, correct me if i am wrong here. Seagull has made a good working example of the 2892 but not a 2893!

  27. #27
    Master
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Great post.
    Many thanks

  28. #28

    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    very useful, thank you.

  29. #29
    Journeyman
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    A newcomer to this forum, I just ran across this thread. Fascinating, and really educational for me. Thanks!

  30. #30
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Lovely photography, we need another post now to learn how to get such great close ups

  31. #31

    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Excellent many Thanks

  32. #32

    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    superb pics.. attention to detail in the highest order!

  33. #33

    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    fantastic photos thanks :

  34. #34
    Craftsman Paul J's Avatar
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    I got so carried away with the Valjoux/Poljot thread I had to read this too - Thanks for all your work and an interesting insight!

  35. #35
    Craftsman loqv75's Avatar
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    very instructive thread, thanks

  36. #36

    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Amazing details :shock:

  37. #37

    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Great post, very educational, thank you.

  38. #38
    Craftsman
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Another excellent post :thumbright:

  39. #39
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Incredible photos, thank you very much!

  40. #40
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    Re: Inside a Seagull 1901

    Thank you, great detail in the photos.

  41. #41
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    Even after all these years....great post, very usefull!

    - Men

  42. #42
    Certainly a great post and worthy of the new bump. I recently have tried my first Seagull 1901 in a Kemmner Bund and I am most impressed with it.

  43. #43
    Banned
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    Great post. Thanks!!

  44. #44
    Journeyman
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    Much more impressed with this movement after this great post. Appreciate your effort!

    Quote Originally Posted by lysanderxiii View Post
    As a follow-up to the ????? 3133 versus Valjoux 7734 thread, I though I'd take a peek inside a Seagull 1901 chronograph, as that is what is currently being used in the PRS-5.

    Technical details: The Seagull 1901 is a 23 jewel, column wheel controlled, chronograph, lever movement operating at 21,600 bph. It has a running second dial at the 9 o'clock position, a 30 minute counter sub-dial at 3 o'clock, and a sweep second counter mounted centrally along with the timekeeping minute and hour hands. The chronograph functions are controlled through two buttons, one (at 2 o'clock) for starting and stopping the chronograph, one (at 4 o'clock) for resetting the second and minute counters. The column wheel prevents the action of the reset while the chronograph is running.

    The 23 jewels are in the following locations:

    Balance staff - 2 bearing, 2 cap, total 4
    Impulse - 1
    Pallet - 2
    Pallet pivot - 2
    Escape wheel pivots - 2
    4th wheel pivots - 2
    3rd wheel pivots - 2
    Center wheel pivots - 2
    Top Chronograph second counter pivot - 1
    Top Chronograph minute counter pivot - 1
    Slider Gear pivots - 2
    Intermediate minute counter wheel pivots - 2

    Here is the front, with the typical Chinese front plate. This does nothing but increases the thickness of the movement and retains the hour wheel (Something the Swiss prefer to do with the dial.)



    And, the back, many have probably seen a better view on the Timefactor's page.



    Some may not know what exactly a column wheel is, or how it works. So, here we have a close-up of the column wheel: (pardon the grease)

    Chronograph engaged


    Chronograph disengaged


    As you can see, the column wheel is castellated, each function is controlled by an arm that has a nose that either fits in between the castellations, or is forced out from them. This keeps you from resetting while the chronograph is running, and such, and gives the column wheel chronograph its smooth action. You may also note that the noses are rather slight, but donít worry that you will bend one, the action of the buttons does not bring direct force against these small delicate parts.

    At the far left, is the start/stop lever, when the start button is pushed, the pawl moves out ward and rotates the column wheel clockwise one step. This will allow the nose of the slider gear carrier to drop in between two of the castellations and engaging the slider gear and the chrono-second wheel starting the chronograph (first figure). This will also block the hammer from falling (see the hammer nub at about 1 oíclock retaliative to the column wheel. Pushing the start button a second time (as in the second picture) will rotate the column wheel another step and the advancing castellation will force the slider gear carrier nose out disengaging the chronograph and freeing the hammer to fall. The hammer has its own sear triggered by the reset button not seen here.

    Here are all the chronograph function parts. A comparison to the VAL 7734 and Poljot 3133 will reveal this has more parts (nearly 40% fewer on the cam action chronograph). From left to right: bottom row (screws not detailed): start/stop lever, start/stop spring, slider gear carrier spring, slider gear carrier and slider gear, hammer spring, hammer; second row: reset lever spring, reset lever, hammer sear, hammer sear spring, brake lever, intermediate minute wheel carrier and brake lever spring, intermediate minute wheel carrier and wheel, column wheel spring, column wheel; top row: chronograph bridge, minute counter wheel (below) chronograph second wheel.



    Here is just the movement minus the chronograph parts



    And the gear train



    The balance with a nicely formed hairspring



    Close-up of the pallet fork



    The tension spring for the second hand



    Layout of the basic time parts



    The keyless works disassembled



    Close-up of the escape wheel



    A close-up of the balance cock and anti-shock setting





    Anti-shock jewels



    The movement is well made and runs extremely well, this one was time to run, on average, 7 s/d. I runs very consistent. The chronograph functions are relatively light and crisp, unlike the Poljot 3133 and Valjoux 7734.

    The Swiss have, in my opinion, missed a boat by ceasing the production of handwinding two resister chronographs and focusing exclusively on automatics. Most of the chronograph market (90% or more) use the 7750 or el Premiro, the 7750 (or a variant) for the low to middle price range, the el Premiro for the higher price range.

    The workmanship on these movements is better than the run-of-the-mill Chinese ST16 and DG28, The gears are slightly thicker and the teeth, especially the fine teeth of the chronograph second wheel, are clean and well formed. The adjustments of the chronograph functions (slider gear mesh on both sides, and intermediate minute wheel engagement) was adequate, but the second hand jumped slightly on engagement. Not all that bad, though.

    I like this movement, I hope to see Seagull come out with a date (at six) or an actual hour counter version in the future. Then someone can do a Benrus Skychief homage. Also, it might be possible to do true "fly-back" version, this would be nice.

    The finish is not the movementís strong point, this is my only gripe, and a relatively minor one. The Geneva stripes are rather coarse and uneven. These have been made with a fly-cutter, not grinding compound and a disk and the cross-feed was to high. The screws are chemically blued and almost baby blue in color, not the preferable blue-black of a good charcoal blue. There was to my surprise pearlage on the exposed portion of the mainplate around the balance, but it was so light I didnít notice it until examining the mailplate under a loupe.




  45. #45
    Love your HD close distance shots! Thanks for sharing. I have the Seagull ST19 movement, which (I'm not a movement expert) is quite similar I believe.
    It really adore to see the column wheel regulate all the action.

  46. #46
    Apprentice
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    Red face Inside a Seagull 1901

    that's a grate post.

  47. #47
    Journeyman
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    Great post, love the pictures

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