GOV.UK Basic laws on historic tools

[bwest76]

I am only talking about small knives,an ancient tool and legal to carry (not knives/swords etc. as used by gangs/criminals you may discuss that elsewhere if you so wish).

That is (small) Swiss army knives,Barlow knives and the like

I post this as its clear the police are it seems deliberetly misquoting UK law on their websites and individually lack knowledge.

I am not a lawyer (barrack room or other) but it has got me a bit worried.

Mostly because the police in these later years have changed for the worst in many ways.

A lot of the population and even more of us military/veterans do not trust them,I have seen first hand misconduct and more.






This is from the GOV.UK website

https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives


Basic laws on knives and weapons
It’s illegal to use any knife or weapon in a threatening way.


It’s also illegal to:

carry most knives or any weapons in public without a ‘good reason’
sell most knives or any weapons to anyone under the age of 18
The exception to these 2 rules are folding pocketknives that:

have a "cutting edge" no longer than 3 inches
are not lock knives (they do not have a button, spring or catch that you have to use to fold the knife)







I have highlighted cutting edge.

Cutting edge is not the blade length (which also incudes the tang),it is only the part of the blade that is sharpened to cut.

Many police forces are quoting 3" blade and not cutting edge as the law.

It also must not lock in any way.

All fixed blades are out including the very tiny knife that comes in a Swiss card,I know that seems madness but it is what it is.

I get a lot of people saying ive never been searched or things like that,I wont risk it and think them fools.





Other knives


Good reasons for carrying a knife or weapon in public
If the knife or weapon is not banned, some examples of ‘good reasons’ include using it:

for your work
for religious reasons, such as the kirpan some Sikhs carry
as part of any national costume
A court will decide if you’ve got a good reason to carry a knife or a weapon if you’re charged with carrying it illegally.

If you want advice on what counts as a ‘good reason’, contact your local police or get legal advice


I hate the way they use the word weapon it implies something.

Good luck with this part ‘good reason’ when asking the police if you can carry your stanley knife as a carpet fitter,nor will 101 give you any legal advice.

What I have done is screen shot the UK.GOV law and the UK police regions that have it correct and put it on my phone as photos.

Welsh Police site contradicts itself

https://www.south-wales.police.uk/po...banned%20knife

Ask the police seems correct

https://www.askthe.police.uk/faq/?id...b-0022483f5223

[Saint-Just]

The problem is simple. If the police stops you for having a blade longer than 3” you can argue your case in which case there are 2 possibilities:
-they recognise their error
-they don’t

In the latter case you can refuse to leave them your knife, go to the police station and speak with the Desk Sargeant, and repeat the process, with the same alternative.
The next step, assuming the CPS wants to take up your case, is to argue your case. You will most probably win, except if you were acting stupid in the first place and this was the reason for the initial search that led to the discovery.
Then the question becomes: how much time are you prepared to waste ( the chances of this scenario happening are extremely remote, but you asked).

[Chris_in_the_UK]

There are very few reasons in 2023 for anybody to carry a pocket knife of any description IMHO.

[Saint-Just]

There are very few reasons in 2023 for anybody to carry a pocket knife of any description IMHO.

The first one is called freedom.
I have one on me every day. And use it at least once 99% of the time during the day.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

The first one is called freedom.
I have one on me every day. And use it at least once 99% of the time during the day.

Of course, but what do you actually use it for?

[unclealec]

I would feel very odd indeed if I didn't have my pocket knife with me. I have carried a small knife since I was about 5.

Unfortunately for me legally, the reason for carrying it usually follows after the carrying of it. I just don't know what I will use it for on a given day.
It could be opening a parcel, trimming some gaffer tape, rescuing a sheep from brambles, slicing up an unexpected pie in the Three Rooms of Gloom, etc etc ad infinitum.
Yesterday it was vital in removing the contents of a can of Guinness 0-0 after the aluminium opener misbehaved itself.

I doubt that much of the above would cut the mustard (sorry) in a court of law - but I still carry it.

[Saint-Just]

Slicing a fruit (today, a persimmon), open packages, scissors (on my SAK several times a day, from fingernails to twine to…), screwdrivers (including the small one for my glasses)…
It’s a tool and I carry it as such, with the full understanding that it is better to have it and not need it than the opposite, and that the best knife in the world is the one you have in your pocket when you need one.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Slicing a fruit (today, a persimmon), open packages, scissors (on my SAK several times a day, from fingernails to twine to…), screwdrivers (including the small one for my glasses)…
It’s a tool and I carry it as such, with the full understanding that it is better to have it and not need it than the opposite, and that the best knife in the world is the one you have in your pocket when you need one.

For balance, I have managed all of that, all of my life without a pocket knife.

[oldoakknives]

There are very few reasons in 2023 for anybody to carry a pocket knife of any description IMHO.

There are very few reasons why I shouldn’t be allowed to.

[Enoch]

I’ve never known my wife to not carry a knife. Horses. Bailing twine on bails of hay, opening bags of feed and bedding, cutting electric fencing wire and a host of other stuff that I don’t get involved in..

[Chris_in_the_UK]

There are very few reasons why I shouldn’t be allowed to.

Of course, but I did not say people should not be allowed, I said 'very few reasons'.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

I’ve never known my wife to not carry a knife. Horses. Bailing twine on bails of hay, opening bags of feed and bedding, cutting electric fencing wire and a host of other stuff that I don’t get involved in..

There are other implements to do that kind of stuff - Tuff-Cutt scissors as an example.

[Saint-Just]

There are other implements to do that kind of stuff - Tuff-Cutt scissors as an example.

Why would you use a dedicated tool when many different jobs can require you to carry many different tools when one does the job perfectly?
Why is this country in such a state that a simple, small, non locking pocket knife is seen as a weapon by people like you who I consider, rightly or wrongly, as down to earth and practical?
What are the crime statistics that justify considering that one small legal knife is one too many?

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Why would you use a dedicated tool when many different jobs can require you to carry many different tools when one does the job perfectly?
Why is this country in such a state that a simple, small, non locking pocket knife is seen as a weapon by people like you who I consider, rightly or wrongly, as down to earth and practical?
What are the crime statistics that justify considering that one small legal knife is one too many?

Personally I have never understood the fascination or need for a pocket knife, which is probably the basis for my views, sorry.

There are people who sensibly carry and use one in their daily life but as a general principle it has never sat well with me.

[Saint-Just]

I see no fascination (a sowbelly or a sak are rarely objects of extasy*) but a practical tool that is always available for a very limited inconvenience.

* there are people capable of making them spectacular but they become artworks, not tools.

[oldoakknives]

Of course, but I did not say people should not be allowed, I said 'very few reasons'.

It’s not a big leap to go from ‘very few reasons’ to ‘we have decided you’re not allowed to’
All usually driven by the ‘all knives are weapons’ lobby.

[TheTigerUK]

I've always carried a knife of some sorts and over the years i've used it has a tool for all kinds of things, I don't use it often but when I do its been a god send.

[Reeny]

An axe or a hammer are also tools which can be classed as an offensive weapon if used with the intent to cause harm.

I am happy to carry a knife hidden in my pocket in public around town, or a small multitool to the pub. But I would not openly carry an axe or hammer in those places, unless it was for work purposes or for good reason.

Every wine waiter has a bladed pocket knife with corkscrew.
Every angler should have a +3-inch gutting knife in the tackle box while at the beach, pier, or riverbank.
Gardeners, tradesmen and farmers will have bladed tools in the pick-up, van, car, tractor.
Good reason is subjective and open to interpretation.

[PickleB]

Slicing a fruit (today, a persimmon), open packages, scissors (on my SAK several times a day, from fingernails to twine to…), screwdrivers (including the small one for my glasses)…
It’s a tool and I carry it as such, with the full understanding that it is better to have it and not need it than the opposite, and that the best knife in the world is the one you have in your pocket when you need one.

For balance, I have managed all of that, all of my life without a pocket knife.

I have used my pocket knife for most of those tasks whilst travelling on public transport. How have managed to do them if you don't carry one, please, Chris?

[ralphy]

For those who wish to carry something for daily use wouldn't this cover all your needs?



Personally I don't feel the need to carry a knife every day, but when I travel abroad I have my Swiss Army Knife with me.

R

[higham5]

I would feel very odd indeed if I didn't have my pocket knife with me. I have carried a small knife since I was about 5.

Unfortunately for me legally, the reason for carrying it usually follows after the carrying of it. I just don't know what I will use it for on a given day.
It could be opening a parcel, trimming some gaffer tape, rescuing a sheep from brambles, slicing up an unexpected pie in the Three Rooms of Gloom, etc etc ad infinitum.
Yesterday it was vital in removing the contents of a can of Guinness 0-0 after the aluminium opener misbehaved itself.

I doubt that much of the above would cut the mustard (sorry) in a court of law - but I still carry it.

Alec there is a clear case for prosecution under the “ poor taste “ regulations. I dont drink Alcohol yet draw the line at Guinness 00. It is truly an awful tasting beverage. Merry Xmas by the way to you and your good wife.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

I have used my pocket knife for most of those tasks whilst travelling on public transport. How have managed to do them if you don't carry one, please, Chris?

It's personal experience and opinion, nothing more.

I usually travel with fruit that does not require a knife to eat it (as an example)....

[Kingstepper]

Can’t remember the last time I travelled with fruit!

[pugster]

personally i dont think theres any need for anyone to carry a knife these days , use one at work? fine (its basic common sense , are you a gamekeeper thats out in the sticks skining deer and other game yes a knife is fine on your job , are you walking to tescos no you dont need to carry a knife)

..... what fruit are people eating that means they cant use their own teeth and hands ?

* ok im making the assumption most Tzers still have there own teeth

[Griswold]

Can’t remember the last time I travelled with fruit!

I've travelled with a few fruitcakes in my time!

[unclealec]

Alec there is a clear case for prosecution under the “ poor taste “ regulations. I dont drink Alcohol yet draw the line at Guinness 00. It is truly an awful tasting beverage. Merry Xmas by the way to you and your good wife.

It is a bit grim, isn't it! But when driving, it's amazing what two cans do.

[Dave+63]

This serves me well, I do find it quite useful.

[Reeny]

..... what fruit are people eating that means they cant use their own teeth and hands ?

I had a terrible time last week trying to crack open my coconut on the train without a machete.

[Dave+63]

I had a terrible time last week trying to crack open my coconut on the train without a machete.

You don’t need a machete, it’s illegal!

A core drill and a stick of dynamite should do the job.

[blackal]

I would feel very odd indeed if I didn't have my pocket knife with me. I have carried a small knife since I was about 5.

Unfortunately for me legally, the reason for carrying it usually follows after the carrying of it. I just don't know what I will use it for on a given day.
It could be opening a parcel, trimming some gaffer tape, rescuing a sheep from brambles, slicing up an unexpected pie in the Three Rooms of Gloom, etc etc ad infinitum.
Yesterday it was vital in removing the contents of a can of Guinness 0-0 after the aluminium opener misbehaved itself.

I doubt that much of the above would cut the mustard (sorry) in a court of law - but I still carry it.

But - you don't require a reason (Legally) to carry a 3" bladed folder in your pocket in public.

[learningtofly]

Seems clear to me that a Swiss Army/Gerber/Leatherman tool would meet all normal day to day needs. No idea why anyone would need to carry a knife around with them as an EDC, other than force of habit. Obviously just my opinion, of course.

[Beanie]

The legislation is a bit of a blunt instrument in respect of small pocket knives, and sensibly should be enforced with common sense and discretion. Unfortunately, these days that seems to have been beaten out of the Police who sadly seem incapable of independent thought. Don't forget that there is a power of arrest and you may find yourself accompanying the officer to the Police station, and not voluntarily (fingerprints, photo DNA sample taken, entry on the PNC). When I'm out and about my property, I carry a Gerber multitool, but take it off even when cutting my grass verge (public place), which is pretty sad. It all depends on your attitude to risk.
The legislation wasn't meant for the likes of most people who want to carry one as in most of the posts above, it was meant for those who may have criminal intent to deal with it before it's used. Don't forget that most murders in the UK where weapons are used involve knives (OK not usually pocket knives but I'm sure there have been).
It's a shame but there it is.

[bwest76]

Other countrys laugh at us with our draconian and open to misinterpretation laws.

A trip to Corsica would open your eyes.

A small penknife is not a weapon, feel free to take out your SAK in London when someone with a machete is stealing your Rolex (it wont go well,they might die laughing).



My point was is we have a law and I stick to it that is a sub 3" cutting edge not a sub £3" blade length.

The Police should also obey the law and deliberetly misrepresnting it is wrong.

[bwest76]

I used a very small Swiss army knife when I went into hospital last week unexpectedly (its all I had on me) and fixed a cannula on my arm that was coming out.

As I am going in again just before christmas I am taking my Compact with me.

Scissors always useful,tooth pic (which I use),screwdiver for glasses,pen,tweezers etc.

Once I even tightened the screws on a coat hook loose in the shower.

I was having trouble opening things due to lack of strength so it will help.

I dont like to bother the nurses when they are busy if I can do it myself.

Half of it may well be having some control in your life and knowing you have a tool to help.



No one sees a small SAK with red scales as threatening, even so I dont brandish it around,just be discreet.



https://www.kochkochin.com/products/...UaAirQEALw_wcB

[Beanie]

I absolutely take your point and agree that it is the cutting edge that is the important factor. Are you aware of any folding pocket knives on the market where the blade extends beyond the cutting edge. I'm envisaging a 6" blade with a 3" cutting edge. Bear in mind that possession of a butter knife with no cutting edge has been held to be an offence.
I'm not convinced that police officers are deliberately misinterpreting the law, they must follow their training which as you say may be faulty. They are accountable and if they don't follow procedure, they are open to sanctions (an illegal search, if involving the use of force is after all an assault).

[unclealec]

Seems clear to me that a Swiss Army/Gerber/Leatherman tool would meet all normal day to day needs. No idea why anyone would need to carry a knife around with them as an EDC, other than force of habit. Obviously just my opinion, of course.

When I was alive no-one could afford a Swiss Army knife, though when I was 18 I did come by one under dubious circumstances; I still have and carry it occasionally, but it is too bulky and clumsy to have as an ever-present in my pocket. My little Opinel performs that task as it has done since I bought it on a school trip to France in 1964.
A Swiss Army knife/Leathermanesque tool (and I have those also) is a knife, but with other attachments.

[monogroover]

When I was alive no-one could afford a Swiss Army knife, though when I was 18 I did come by one under dubious circumstances; I still have and carry it occasionally, but it is too bulky and clumsy to have as an ever-present in my pocket. My little Opinel performs that task as it has done since I bought it on a school trip to France in 1964.
A Swiss Army knife/Leathermanesque tool (and I have those also) is a knife, but with other attachments.

Sorry to hear of your passing.

[unclealec]

Sorry to hear of your passing.

My passing is a matter of intense debate in our house just now, consequent upon my increased intake of farm cider.

There is a distinctive odour about the place.........

[burnside]

I absolutely take your point and agree that it is the cutting edge that is the important factor. Are you aware of any folding pocket knives on the market where the blade extends beyond the cutting edge. I'm envisaging a 6" blade with a 3" cutting edge. Bear in mind that possession of a butter knife with no cutting edge has been held to be an offence.
I'm not convinced that police officers are deliberately misinterpreting the law, they must follow their training which as you say may be faulty. They are accountable and if they don't follow procedure, they are open to sanctions (an illegal search, if involving the use of force is after all an assault).

This. See also if someone they interact with then goes on to commit an offence involving said item. They will be pilloried for not confiscating the item in question.

I’d also disagree that a large number of the public including veterans don’t trust the Police. Especially when a large number of veterans go on to serve in the Police.

[Saint-Just]

Seems clear to me that a Swiss Army/Gerber/Leatherman tool would meet all normal day to day needs. No idea why anyone would need to carry a knife around with them as an EDC, other than force of habit. Obviously just my opinion, of course.

This seems to be contradictory in many ways. Many Leatherman multitools lock, and are therefore illegal to carry without good reason. "just in case" (Hello, Ally!) is not a good reason.
Most Leatherman also have at least one blade, even the non locking ones. That makes them a knife.
A SAK is by definition a knife. The "Swiss Army tools" (Victorinox Swisstools) all have locking blades IIINM.

So in most cases, the tool that meets your normal day to day needs is illegal to carry (wgr), whereas a simple penknife is. I agree with Ralphy though that a classic SAK will prove more useful than a simple blade in many cases.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

This seems to be contradictory in many ways. Many Leatherman multitools lock, and are therefore illegal to carry without good reason. "just in case" (Hello, Ally!) is not a good reason.
Most Leatherman also have at least one blade, even the non locking ones. That makes them a knife.
A SAK is by definition a knife. The "Swiss Army tools" (Victorinox Swisstools) all have locking blades IIINM.

So in most cases, the tool that meets your normal day to day needs is illegal to carry (wgr), whereas a simple penknife is. I agree with Ralphy though that a classic SAK will prove more useful than a simple blade in many cases.

Gerber do a UK legal carry version of one of their tools.

[Saint-Just]

I absolutely take your point and agree that it is the cutting edge that is the important factor. Are you aware of any folding pocket knives on the market where the blade extends beyond the cutting edge. I'm envisaging a 6" blade with a 3" cutting edge. Bear in mind that possession of a butter knife with no cutting edge has been held to be an offence.
I'm not convinced that police officers are deliberately misinterpreting the law, they must follow their training which as you say may be faulty. They are accountable and if they don't follow procedure, they are open to sanctions (an illegal search, if involving the use of force is after all an assault).

For your information the reason a butter knife can be held as an offence is because it fits the definition of a fixed knife. The law is blind and mostly dumb.
However the officer who made the arrest wasn't. I don't have any details but would presume it was used as a reason for the arrest, not the cause for wanting to arrest him, unless the owner was so drunk/drugged that he started to threaten people with a butter knife.

Words have meaning. Cutting edge is a case in point. Yes you can try to be clever with it but in the case you envisaged, a 6" blade is a fixed knife regardless of the length of the cutting edge, and regardless if there is a implement at the end that folds back.
Because the law says 3" cutting edge, makers of EDC knife will build therewith a 3" cutting edge to maximise the useful part of the blade. that means the size of the blade from the axle will usually be 5 to 10 mm longer.

[Saint-Just]

Gerber do a UK legal carry version of one of their tools.

And so does Leatherman (the micra). But most SAKs (with the exception of the larger, locking ones) are UK legal carry.

[oldoakknives]

The legislation is a bit of a blunt instrument in respect of small pocket knives, and sensibly should be enforced with common sense and discretion. Unfortunately, these days that seems to have been beaten out of the Police who sadly seem incapable of independent thought. Don't forget that there is a power of arrest and you may find yourself accompanying the officer to the Police station, and not voluntarily (fingerprints, photo DNA sample taken, entry on the PNC). When I'm out and about my property, I carry a Gerber multitool, but take it off even when cutting my grass verge (public place), which is pretty sad. It all depends on your attitude to risk.
The legislation wasn't meant for the likes of most people who want to carry one as in most of the posts above, it was meant for those who may have criminal intent to deal with it before it's used. Don't forget that most murders in the UK where weapons are used involve knives (OK not usually pocket knives but I'm sure there have been).
It's a shame but there it is.

Research suggests that the overwhelming majority of knife crime and stabbings, are carried out using kitchen knives. Most youths obtain their knives from their mums knife drawer apparently. Most of the laws and incentives brought in to tackle 'knife crime' (as the authorities and media like to call drug and gang violence) do little to nothing to address the causes behind it.

[Saint-Just]

Research suggests that the overwhelming majority of knife crime and stabbings, are carried out using kitchen knives. Most youths obtain their knives from their mums knife drawer apparently. Most of the laws and incentives brought in to tackle 'knife crime' (as the authorities and media like to call drug and gang violence) do little to nothing to address the causes behind it.

This.

[blackal]

Research suggests that the overwhelming majority of knife crime and stabbings, are carried out using kitchen knives. Most youths obtain their knives from their mums knife drawer apparently. Most of the laws and incentives brought in to tackle 'knife crime' (as the authorities and media like to call drug and gang violence) do little to nothing to address the causes behind it.

Unless you are 'profiled' (admittedly not police)

Going through Customs/Security departing a UK ferry port - On a motorcycle:

"Do you have any knives in your luggage?"

"Yes, I have a multitool and a non-locking folding knife"

"Can you show me, please"

So - you have to guess where where in your panniers and topbox, and dig them out...........

When I point out that each of the motorhomes and caravans have a huge block of kitchen knives, and "what do you do about that?"..................

They get all mumbly-grumpy.

[ralphy]

This seems to be contradictory in many ways. Many Leatherman multitools lock, and are therefore illegal to carry without good reason. "just in case" (Hello, Ally!) is not a good reason.
Most Leatherman also have at least one blade, even the non locking ones. That makes them a knife.
A SAK is by definition a knife. The "Swiss Army tools" (Victorinox Swisstools) all have locking blades IIINM.

So in most cases, the tool that meets your normal day to day needs is illegal to carry (wgr), whereas a simple penknife is. I agree with Ralphy though that a classic SAK will prove more useful than a simple blade in many cases.

I don't believe that a SAK is classed as illegal (if the blade it contains is less than 3 inches long) for the reason that it qualifes as a folding pocketknife.

R

[bwest76]

I absolutely take your point and agree that it is the cutting edge that is the important factor. Are you aware of any folding pocket knives on the market where the blade extends beyond the cutting edge. I'm envisaging a 6" blade with a 3" cutting edge. Bear in mind that possession of a butter knife with no cutting edge has been held to be an offence.
I'm not convinced that police officers are deliberately misinterpreting the law, they must follow their training which as you say may be faulty. They are accountable and if they don't follow procedure, they are open to sanctions (an illegal search, if involving the use of force is after all an assault).

I did not link to police force websites that had it wrong not wishing to spread misinformation.

Most knifes have a tang that isnt a cutting edge.

When the police do get it wrong the culture is that they can/will not admit it, see any amount of news items.

When I bought an old butter knife from the market I had it wrapped in newspaper and lots of tape to take it home,so yes I am aware.




A small Opinel is only legal to carry if it doesent have a locking ring,you can remove them.

I have bought quite a few old ones that were made before the vibralock came in.

[bwest76]

When I was alive no-one could afford a Swiss Army knife, though when I was 18 I did come by one under dubious circumstances; I still have and carry it occasionally, but it is too bulky and clumsy to have as an ever-present in my pocket. My little Opinel performs that task as it has done since I bought it on a school trip to France in 1964.
A Swiss Army knife/Leathermanesque tool (and I have those also) is a knife, but with other attachments.

I hope you got better.

[Groundrush]

The sub 3” folder and good reason defences don’t guarantee anything unfortunately. People have been successfully nicked for sub 3” cutting edge slip joint where the total blade length was over 3”. One guy even ended up doing time for carrying a brand new Stanley knife still in the packaging (along with a load of other diy stuff) in a shopping bag on his way home from the shop he bought it from. That one made the Law Gazzette a few years ago.