Hi all, quick question about consumer units as I know nothing about wiring etc.
We're planning on having a new kitchen and had a chap come round to look at our design and give us a quote for fitting.
Cooking at the moment is provided for by a range cooker with two electric ovens (one normal size with a smaller one to the side) and gas hob on top.
Our current plan is to get rid of the range and have two normal size electric ovens side by side with an induction hob above.
The current Mrs Westy demands that two ovens are required and wants an induction hob for the minimalistic look...
The chosen ovens and hob need to be 'hard wired' apparently.
Anyway, said fitter stated that we probably couldn't run the proposed ovens/hob arrangement off the existing cooker supply and would need to run another cable from the consumer unit. Not a massive problem, it's not that far away and on the same side of the house but in the garage.
However, he then goes to the consumer unit and states it would need to be replaced with a newer one as it also couldn't handle the load.
I sensed a whiff of something about that and I will clearly need to get another opinion, but anyone got any thoughts on whether he's right?
Here is the current (lol) consumer unit.
Thanks.
That CU would not meet modern regs, so by you now adding a new circuit he is maybe suggesting that it is a wise time to also upgrade to a new unit as it brings it up to modern requirements and allows him to sign it off as compliant.
I suspect he may be reluctant to add a new circuit otherwise.
I Have just had the same thing, but our unit is a bit older. My sparky (who I trust) also suggested a new compliant board when we have the kitchen rewired.
I was also going to say, for the sake of a few hundred pound, ( that’s the unit with all new trips and fitting ), it makes sense to bring it up to current regs.
Won’t each oven and the new hob require their own fused supply? If that is the case then, the existing cooker supply could be used but there’s only 1 potentially free slot available leaving you 1 short, pardon the pun.
Given a new kitchen is not a cheap project I would say replacing that CU with a modern one is well worth the marginal additional cost - although there is the possibility of finding other faults & issues when the rest of the house wiring is tested as part of the certification.
Maybe plan for the addition of a circuit for an EV car charger at the same time?
What do I know, but that CU looks fairly modern with RCD trip protection.
I am sure there are always newer CU model around, but my Mum is still using fuse wire in hers, and it hasn’t been upgraded since she moved into the house in 1968. Nobody has been electrocuted and it seems to function as required.
Usually fuse wire sitting against asbestos so be careful with those.Originally Posted by noTAGlove
When the electrician fitted our EV charging circuit, whilst he was happy to do so as we had a spare slot on the consumer unit, he did recommend a metal one in line with the latest code.
It was a good opportunity to give the whole house wiring a once over as well.
Code may have changed again in the 4 years since we had that done, but for the sake of a few hundred pounds I’d rather go with what a professional says.
Worth getting a second electrician round to do a quote if you think the first one is just building up the job?
By no means no expert but I can’t see any spares - afaik a halogen hob has quite a draw so would require its own mcb
Can’t see what you have but I’d want separate upstairs and downstairs socket rings and possibly one just for the kitchen- that’s what I’ve done
Thanks for all the comments and advice.
I will be getting a second sparky to have a look, but it sounds like a worthwhile upgrade particularly as an EV or PHEV is on the cards in the next few years.
Thanks again.
They have to be metal now, not plastic, if anyone does any work they are supposed to upgrade them to metal and fit RCBOs I feel it’s a money making regulation, but like surge arresters
I agree, the consumer unit in the images looks state of the art compared to ours!
We had a new kitchen fitted a couple of months ago and acquired a shiny new consumer unit next to the old one - was told it was necessary under updated regulations. All part of the fun, and an education in how much any work costs these days...
Run a PHEV, and just had a new consumer unit fitted along with air con. We didn't need it for the PHEV charger as that was already fitted, but there just wasn't enough capacity left in the old unit for the air con units as well. Didn't cost that much, so I'd say do it.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Induction not Halogen.
Well I’ve got the same unit and when I had my wet room done I was assured that it was fine and didn’t need to be changed.
You appear to have a spare 32amp breaker which could be used for the hob and the existing cooker breaker is fine for the two ovens.
That said, as the regs now call for metal consumer units, I’m unsure as to whether an electrician would be legally allowed to sign off work to a now non compliant consumer unit.
For the extra cost I’d be inclined to go for a new unit with additional spaces for any future plans.
I note they’re not marked but turned on so presumed they were being used
I'm not up on the regs, but:
With 2 individual ovens being specified - is it kosher to have one cooker MCB feeding both via an extra JB or even to connect two individual cables to the existing cooker MCB? Two outlets from the local breaker?
Sure, the load of both being on- is similar to the existing range ovens, but I feel that individual supplies could be needed for each of the ovens.
I'd be looking at a new box, with additional spare slots, but mindful that the existing wiring at the back - has to be able to reach the terminals of the new MCBs. Some installation electricians don't think about the need to have 'some' flexibility there
For the extra cost, which would be a small fraction of the overall, I would certainly replace the consumer unit, future proofing for EV going forward.
Sent from my Nokia 1.4 using Tapatalk
Sorry I meant induction
Does that mean that every consumer unit in the UK will have to be upgraded if they wish to be issued with an EICR?
I don’t know, but as the EICR is only required for rental properties, it’s not relevant for most homes in the UK.
I’m not an expert and was just making a suggestion about electricians signing off their work.
No it does not although you won't be surprised to hear that electricians were coding the plastic CU issue incorrectly & claiming it was requirement to change it - kerching. It was a particular issue for landlords as the EICR failure was notified to BC & they only had a very short time to get any work done so had difficulty getting second opinions.
In reality you could probably run the induction hob & both ovens off something like a 40A breaker with a 6mm cable - but that does depend on the actual ratings of the appliances & the cable run length. There's a diversity calculation which allows for the fact that it's very rare that all appliances are on at full chat at the same time which means that the supply breaker can be a lot smaller than just the sum of the individual loads. However, in reality it's probably easiest to run the hob off one breaker & the ovens off another.
Consumer units have really moved on since our previous build, this is our current one (bits not yet connected)
Consumer units have really moved on since our previous build, this is our current one (bits not yet connected)
Interesting - you've moved away from having the kitchen consumer isolators in the kitchen/Utility.
Looks neat- just need to get some dymo labels on the MCBs in the Dist Unit.
Where’s the SPD, in another enclosureConsumer units have really moved on since our previous build, this is our current one (bits not yet connected)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I may upgrade our CU’s in the new year and move to RCBO and SPD since I’d rather not have a frazzled car.
"Bite my shiny metal ass."
- Bender Bending Rodríguez
That’s just how the spark installs, but it makes sense when you think about it. Kitchen much tidier. I have the label printer on standby for the rest :-)Interesting - you've moved away from having the kitchen consumer isolators in the kitchen/Utility.
Looks neat- just need to get some dymo labels on the MCBs in the Dist Unit.
- - - Updated - - -
No idea, sorry
So how are you supposed to deal with that if people are giving incorrect advice?
Last edited by Montello; 2nd December 2023 at 20:20.
Sure, neater, but I’d rather have them local to the consumer.
For emergency isolation - you have all the isolators in one location. If you have the individual isolators in the kitchen/utility room - you have two locations.
I know - small probability…………
That is simply incorrect. The regulations DO NOT state that.
I’m not going to deep dive into the regs in this thread as I’m not convinced it’s helpful.
OP, you are right to get another spark to take a look. I’d suggest you get a couple of quotes from recommended independents not affiliated to the kitchen company.
Grid system is the solution. Neat and convenient.
"Bite my shiny metal ass."
- Bender Bending Rodríguez
Go on. Be helpful.
"Bite my shiny metal ass."
- Bender Bending Rodríguez
It started in ed17 Rev 2or 3, I couldn’t get part P without it
Edit, I just checked, if it is in the house it has to be completely clad in non flammable material, the easiest way to do this is a metal consumer unit.
Last edited by adrianw; 2nd December 2023 at 22:47.
All I can say is that we are due an inspection next year - it is a requirement for our insurance.
We've had a bit of work done recently, one sparkie said our CU would fail the next inspection and need to be replaced to a metal one.
The one who has done the most recent work (and I actually trust more, he's top notch) said it would be a recommendation but not a requirement. There are others issues he pointed out that would fail but none catastrophic.
Guess which one I'll be using for the inspection!
The reason I said it wouldn’t be helpful is that there is insufficient detail in the OP’s post to make a proper assessment of the design requirements.
A decent qualified spark regulated by the likes of NECEIC or NAPIT will be able to provide the correct advice.
Ignore the likes of TAG whose mum hasn’t had a problem since the late 60’s and therefore knows not a lot about adding an induction hob etc, but does get cheap Leccy. It’s the equivalent of saying your aunt smoked for 60yrs without an issue. Irrelevant and idiotoc.
We had an induction hob and a second full sized oven fitted when we did our kitchen last year. An upgraded and modern metal box was a requirement due to slots, and the old one was 23rs old.
In the scheme of a kitchen cost, it is a rounding error, so I would take the advice of an expert and just get it done. You will also get the rest of the house tested for safety at the same time, as part of sign of.
A non combustible DB on a EICR is a C3 at most it’s a non compliance to current regs but complied at the time of installation you can’t make a customer bring up an original installation that was installed safely retrospectively.
The OP has a MEM memra 2000 board which is obsolete now so finding compatible RCBOs that are brand new is almost impossible. You might be able to fit Memshield 2 breakers but they’ll be around £90 a piece if they are compatible. Kitchen guy was probably suggesting to have the board changed also because you haven’t got a spare way on the RCD side of the board for an additional 1 or 2 circuit’s for the hob and additional oven
Personally I’d have the DB changed to a metal RCBO version, get a SPD fitted at the same time and have piece of mind that any works carried out in the future you have a board that you can buy new parts for.
Last edited by Pennywise; 2nd December 2023 at 22:53.
I have that exact distribution box.
Just to the right of the switches, in the bottom right box of red test is says:
"It is intended that only one device 45A or greater be fitted".
Cookers are usually 10mm2 copper on 50A breakers. So yeah, your sparky is not fibbing.
Don't let your sparky walk away with your old kit. You can sell those breakers, take a look on line at the price of Memera 2000 breakers. They are no longer manufactured, so people with Memera distribution units ahve a choice between paying a lot for a new distribution box install, or over the odds for a breaker.
That is a neat looking setup!Consumer units have really moved on since our previous build, this is our current one (bits not yet connected)
Makes my jumble of wires and boxes look like it was installed by a blind incompetent idiot.
Good advice !
Thanks again for all the input.
Independent sparky has just sent through this quote.
No idea if this is high, or not?
Any thoughts?
I think its a lot compared with what i pay.
Over £850 labour cost based on a £200+ consumer unit cost! Whats a sparkies day rate, £300? £400? Minimum 2 to 3 full days labour seems a lot, especially if it is Stafford area.
In comparison we had ours replaced for a total of £400-£500 (including consumer unit in 2018) as an add on price when we did our extension. London/Surrey border price too.
I’d be getting another quote for comparison.
Last edited by noTAGlove; 13th December 2023 at 22:26.
12 type A RCBOs could be up to £160 as a starting point, so the £200+ cost mentioned is way too low overall, before you even add the other RCBOs and the casing etc.
Personally doesn’t look too far off pricing wise based on when we had ours done in 2021, to accommodate the 2 ovens and induction when we had a huge kitchen makeover.
Where have you got £850 labour from? VAT is included in that quote. Prices have moved since 2018.
Price doesn't look outrageous to me. I paid similar when we had to change a few for rental properties.
Overall the electrician hasn't quoted for unnecessary work, has given you a written quote, broken down the VAT.
Ticks all the right boxes to me.
Last edited by eagletower; 14th December 2023 at 08:58.
Nearly £1100 is a lot for a job with 0.5 to 1 days labour when the actual CU is not expensive. Especially ooop nerth.
Often worth seeking out a sole trader sparky who works below his/her vodka and tonic limit.
Obviously the market will dictate the price, and that is why the right answer is to get at least a couple of quotes.
Last edited by noTAGlove; 14th December 2023 at 09:30.
I'll just add he's a very well respected local sparky who does loads of work in our villages and we even drink in the same pub. 🙂
That quote also includes running new cables to the kitchen ready for the new ovens and hob.
He's done some work for me in the past and I know he will do a proper job, no corners cut and will be neat and tidy at the finish.
I guess the question is how much is that trust and confidence worth, rather than getting someone random out of the phone book?
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
