Watch dials with radium

[Griff]

I was talking to a leading radiological chemist yesterday, and mentioned radium lumed watch dials. I asked him were they a health hazard.
Whether still luminous or not, they will still be very radioactive, and quite a threat to health if the crystals got broken.
He mentioned old aircraft lumed cockpit instrument dials from WW11 planes that were burnt on a Scottish beach, and at the concern there was over the radioactive material on that beach.
He was adamant that old radium lumed watches should not be worn constantly, that they should be taken off at bedtime, and it was wiser not to wear them on the inside of the wrist as some people like to do.
He was quite serious about it, and said the problem was not best ignored!!!
Here is a link about the beach in question and the dangers posed by radium whether on watch dials or old aircraft instrument dials.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4610440.stm

[antonyh]

When ever I have worked on any of these old watche's I always make sure I have a fag going , it takes away the stress of worrying about the radio active content

[PickleB]

When ever I have worked on any of these old watche's I always make sure I have a fag going , it takes away the stress of worrying about the radio active content

I don't want to worry you, but:

Tobacco Smoke

While cigarette smoke is not an obvious source of radiation exposure, it contains small amounts of radioactive materials which smokers bring into their lungs as they inhale. The radioactive particles lodge in lung tissue and over time contribute a huge radiation dose. Radioactivity may be one of the key factors in lung cancer among smokers.

[redsnapper]

Speaking of exposure through the crystal I recall reading some archive material which stated that this was a significant risk for people who slept with their watch on and with their wrist over their eyes. Although this may have been referring specifically to strontium 90 on dials.

[seikokiller]

Speaking of exposure through the crystal I recall reading some archive material which stated that this was a significant risk for people who slept with their watch on and with their wrist over their eyes. Although this may have been referring specifically to strontium 90 on dials.

I sleep with my watch on, and sleep on my front. I often tuck my left hand under my pillow, so would be beaming 0.04 mSv/h up into my ear in the case of that old panerai.

[PickleB]

I sleep with my watch on, and sleep on my front. I often tuck my left hand under my pillow, so would be beaming 0.04 mSv/h up into my ear in the case of that old panerai.

Is your watch Radium luminised ?

I don't think I'd want to wear any Ra luminised watch in bed. Especially one that is heavily luminised like that old Panerai.

I can't remember where I read that actually, but here:

http://rolexblog.blogspot.co.uk/2009...-of-rolex.html

There is a picture which Mark linked to earlier in this thread showing a reading of 13.73 µSv/h (micro-Sieverts per hour) through the metal caseback of an old panerai. Over 24 hours that's 165 µSv, or 0.17 mSv. The estimated dose from a wrist X-Ray is only 0.06 mSv (http://hps.org/physicians/documents/...Procedures.pdf) so in the case of this particular watch, wearing it for 24 hours would actually be equivalent to nearly three wrist X-Rays.

Even more worrying is the reading through the crystal in the link above: 37.53 µSv/h. If you're wearing a watch, different parts of your body will be exposed to gamma radiation emitted through the crystal, as well as the constant dose through the back on the wrist.

As I say though, my main concern would still be ingesting or inhaling particles of radioactive dust, rather than to gamma radiation through the case.

My maths, or my understanding of the units involved could be out. I'm a layman.

What I will say is that the Effective Dose quoted in the article you linked about X-ray doses from medical procedures will be the whole-body dose rather than the local dose to the wrist or limb (for which the tolerable levels will be higher). If you review the list of doses you'll see that the procedures for the trunk, especially away from the air-filled lungs) are considerably greater. This is for two reasons: a higher exposure will be needed to get a decent exposure through more tissue; and the organs exposed are more radio-sensitive than the limbs and extremities. The Sievert, as a dose of radiation equivalent dose, takes into account the sensitivity of the exposed organs to the absorbed does (see BBC Bitesize: Dosimetry and safety).

The best info I could find was linked in my post #22 above.

You're not wrong, but it is a bit more complicated...see post #32 in another thread.

[seikokiller]

Is your watch Radium luminised ?

I don't think I'd want to wear any Ra luminised watch in bed. Especially one that is heavily luminised like that old Panerai.



What I will say is that the Effective Dose quoted in the article you linked about X-ray doses from medical procedures will be the whole-body dose rather than the local dose to the wrist or limb (for which the tolerable levels will be higher). If you review the list of doses you'll see that the procedures for the trunk, especially away from the air-filled lungs) are considerably greater. This is for two reasons: a higher exposure will be needed to get a decent exposure through more tissue; and the organs exposed are more radio-sensitive than the limbs and extremities. The Sievert, as a dose of radiation equivalent dose, takes into account the sensitivity of the exposed organs to the absorbed does (see BBC Bitesize: Dosimetry and safety).

The best info I could find was linked in my post #22 above.

You're not wrong, but it is a bit more complicated...see post #32 in another thread.

Ah I get it. Thanks for the clarification.

So the dose from gamma radiation associated with wearing the watch might not be significantly above background radiation.

I still wouldn't though, for all the other reasons discussed. Wearing the watch means you will constantly be disturbing the radioactive dust contained within (both the radium paint itself, and the fission products from the radon gas it produces, which will be dispersed throughout the watch.

Even if you never open it up, old watches are not necessarily air-tight, and I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that stuff could find its way out of the watch, onto your skin, clothing, and ultimately into you.

Then obviously, by wearing it, you massively increase the risk of breaking the crystal.

If I had one, I'd keep it in the box.

[SimonK]

I wonder how many people on this thread living in abject terror of old luminous watches are smokers or are happy to lie frying in the sun?

[seikokiller]

The other thing I've heard people say is that people wore these for decades with no ill effects.

While that's true, it doesn't really mean anything.

For a start, a radium dialled watch was much safer when it was new, because the paint was stable. Old lume is crumbly, flaky. It breaks off into conveniently inhalable sized chunks in a way it wouldn't have 50 years ago, and with a 1600 year half-life, that 50 year interval has done little to mitigate the damage internal contamination would do.

Secondly, radiation doesn't work that way. It doesn't "give you" cancer. It just gradually increases the risk of getting cancer the more you are exposed to. So it is usually impossible in individual cases to say whether somebodies cancer was or was not caused by radiation. Maybe somembody got lung cancer from radium dust in their lungs. Maybe they were going to get it anyway. Or maybe they were, but not for another 10 years. If they can't determine whether or not Chernobyl has caused a statistically significant number of deaths, it's not going to be possible with something like this.

But that's not a good reason to up and move into the exclusion zone.

[redsnapper]

The archive story

https://news.google.com/newspapers?n...,2980602&hl=en

[bitfield]

I think some people have got their millisieverts and their microsieverts mixed up. The radiation from a radium-dialled watch will do you no harm whatsoever, or at least, nothing comparable to smoking, or living in Cornwall.

The danger, which is real, is of ingesting contaminated material if the watch is damaged, or if you open it up to repair it. Even then, so long as you don't start licking the dial, you're probably OK: just be very careful about inhaling or spreading the dust.

If you keep the watch closed, you've nothing to worry about.

[PickleB]

I think some people have got their millisieverts and their microsieverts mixed up. The radiation from a radium-dialled watch will do you no harm whatsoever, or at least, nothing comparable to smoking, or living in Cornwall.

The danger, which is real, is of ingesting contaminated material if the watch is damaged, or if you open it up to repair it. Even then, so long as you don't start licking the dial, you're probably OK: just be very careful about inhaling or spreading the dust.

If you keep the watch closed, you've nothing to worry about.

Does that include Gillmore, Crockett, Denman, Flowers and Harris? Link:

"A phantom experiment using a TLD suggested an effective dose equivalent of 2.2 mSv/y from a 1 μCi (37 kBq) radium dial worn for 16 h/day throughout the year (dose rate 0.375 μSv h⁻¹). For this condition we estimated maximum skin dose for our pocket watches as 16 mSv per year, with effective doses of 5.1 mSv and 1.169 mSv when worn in vest and trouser pockets respectively. This assumes exposure from the back of the watch which is generally around 60-67% of that from the front. The maximum skin dose from a wristwatch was 14 mSv, with 4.2 mSv effective dose in vest pocket."

[bitfield]

A phantom experiment using a TLD suggested an effective dose equivalent of 2.2 mSv/y

That sounds believable. Normal background radiation dose is about 2mSv/yr in the UK, and about 7 in Finland. So wearing a radium dial watch is somewhat less dangerous, in radiation terms, than moving to Finland.

[PickleB]

That sounds believable. Normal background radiation dose is about 2mSv/yr in the UK, and about 7 in Finland. So wearing a radium dial watch is somewhat less dangerous, in radiation terms, than moving to Finland.

Yep...all things are relative, as they say.

As I've posted elsewhere, an intact Ra lumunised watch isn't much of a hazard. Until, that is, you need to open it for servicing. Then the hazard increases greatly and has the potential to affect more people. The MOD spent a lot of our money replacing and getting rid of its Ra luminised equipment. They did it, IMO, for a very good reason...Ra is nasty stuff. I wouldn't want it in the same house as any children...there are plenty of other good looking watches without any Ra attached (or floating about).

[Dave S]

Without a Geiger counter can I tell if an old dial is radioactive?
If the lume charges with a bright light, albeit with a short afterglow is that a good tell?
I understand that radium lume dies because the radiation kills the glow ability, and tritium dies because there is no radiation left?

Dave

[koimaster]

Story by Ann Quigley

(This article was first published The Waterbury Observer in September 2002)

It was 1921 when 17-year –old Frances Splettstocher landed a job at the Waterbury Clock Company on Cherry Street. It was a glamorous job, for she and her young colleagues worked with radium – the wonder substance of the new century. The girls used their keen eyes and nimble fingers to paint tiny numbers on glow-in-the-dark watches that were all the rage at the moment. World War I soldiers had worn the futuristic devices in the trenches, and now in peacetime everyone wanted one, so Splettstocher and dozens like her were hired to help produce millions of the watches during the early 1920s.

Many of the women pressed their brushes between their lips before dipping them in the radium-laced paint to give their small brushes a nice, fine point. The gritty-textured paint tasted no worse than Elmer’s glue, but it had a strange effect: It made their mouths glow in the dark. This didn’t bother the girls, who stole moments at work to paint their dress buttons and fingernails, and glowing rings on their fingers. “They loved their jobs,” said Claudia Clark, author of a book about the dial-painters called “Radium Girls”. “These were the best jobs working-class girls could get.”

But some would pay for these jobs with their lives.

Even as Splettstocher and her friends bent over long workbenches painting dials, evidence was mounting that this naturally occurring radioactive element had a dark side. But few listened. Even when young women painting dials in Waterbury and places like Orange, New Jersey and Ottawa, Illinois, began to develop horrific symptoms, no one wanted to hear that radium was the cause.


http://www.waterburyobserver.org/node/586


The Radium Girls were female factory workers who contracted radiation poisoning from painting watch dials with glow-in-the-dark paint at the United States Radium factory in Orange, New Jersey, around 1917. The women, who had been told the paint was harmless, ingested deadly amounts of radium by licking their paintbrushes to give them a fine point; some also painted their fingernails and teeth with the glowing substance.

Five of the women challenged their employer in a case that established the right of individual workers who contract occupational diseases to sue their employers.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEMRJSu5vvI[/youtube]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radium_Girls

http://www.waterburyobserver.org/node/586
After Glow.pdf(969.32 KiB) Downloaded 20 times




The Radium Girls.pdf(239.12 KiB) Downloaded 36 times

http://www.rst2.edu/ties/radon/ramfordu ... 0Girls.pdf


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/03/0 ... ls-Part-I#

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/03/0 ... ls-Part-II

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/03/1 ... s-Part-III

[markrlondon]

So wearing a radium dial watch is somewhat less dangerous, in radiation terms, than moving to Finland.

Not necessarily. It all depends on the specific watch. See, for example, the example I commented on at http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post2162373. As I said in the message, wearing "the watch every day for a year for 15 hours a day you would receive a dose of about 75 mSv/year". That is clearly way above most people's background dose.

I definitely did not confused milli and micro. :-)

As I concluded in a later message: In other words, the dose you'd get from regularly wearing such a watch is far more than I, for one, would knowingly or willingly expose myself to, even though it would not be immediately dangerous to one's health. It is certainly way above background for most people. I'd be willing to own the watch and wear it occasionally though.

[bitfield]

Not necessarily. It all depends on the specific watch. See, for example, the example I commented on at http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post2162373. As I said in the message, wearing "the watch every day for a year for 15 hours a day you would receive a dose of about 75 mSv/year". That is clearly way above most people's background dose.

Yes, but as you know, and as someone pointed out, it's not a question of simply multiplying the Geiger reading by the wear time. You have to calculate the equivalent dose depending on the part of the body absorbing the radiation, and if you do that, you end up with a figure which is more or less negligible, compared to all the other radiation you receive from the natural background and other sources such as X-rays, or Finland.

As you said yourself, it's not immediately harmful, but we are talking about micro-increases in micro-doses of risk over your whole lifetime. There's no safe level of blood alcohol for driving, and there's no safe level of radiation, because it only takes a single photon to give you cancer. Wearing a radium-dialled watch is an avoidable risk; you choose not to take it, which is sensible. Working on a radium watch is a much more significant risk, though still pretty small if you know what you're doing, but I certainly agree that we should avoid any risks that we don't absolutely have to take.

As a final note, and just to put this into perspective: if you've ever got into a car, then you've willingly accepted a vastly greater risk to your life than that posed by any watch, even James Bond's exploding Seamaster.

[Wallasey Runner]

Does releasing the crown to adjust the time etc constitute opening the watch as water can get in through an open crown.