Back tracking on electric cars and consequences for the car industry

[craig1912]

Whilst being ready early has some merit I think a key problem from a manufacturer perspective is the customer demand. If the public think that the deadline will keep being pushed back or the landscape keeps changing they will be less inclined to make the switch to electric vehicles and will either keep the car they have or buy another ICE car so the demand for electric vehicles will not be what the manufacturers are forecasting.

Manufacturers are already investing in new factories, developing new electric vehicles etc and they need customer demand because as an OEM you need your factory to be building a certain number of cars per day to be efficient, you can't just suddenly make a lot less. Most manufacturers are able to switch a small amount of volume to other markets in the short term but it is not that easy to do for various reasons.

So if your factory has to churn out cars everyday then you can't just park them up in a field, you need to sell them to the dealers quickly so they are not on your balance sheet and so you can hit the sales targets, contribution margin etc you have promised your shareholders.

If there is no demand from the public then you have to push the cars into the market which means spending more on marketing, discounts and incentives and support for dealers and customers so people will buy them. So then your cost of selling the car goes up a lot which really messes up the business case and has a knock on impact on your share price.

So, in my humble opinion, the car companies would have preferred the UK not to have made the commitment to end ICE sales in 2030 in the first place, however once the decision was made and now they have based all their planning/investments around that decision they would prefer them to stick to it.

I get what you are saying and whilst we are a fair size market, many (majority??) of other countries have set a date in 2035 or 2040.
The majority of the new EV market is company cars and the majority of people will still choose to buy secondhand (petrol or diesel) rather than new EV’s (affordability being the biggest factor) so, I don’t see an extra five years being that much of an issue.

[DONGinsler]

Fact is. Until they get the price down to the price of a standard ICE car. They're just not going to sell to the average family

Cheapest car in Canada is the Mini at $40,000 with a few at $41,000 and these are the small cars. Not suitable for a family

Also bear in mind the size of Canada and the US compared to European countries, so they're basically city cars here

Winters in the eastern states and provinces with salted streets take a toll on the bodies and most likely drain batteries

What about trucks, Semi's and large commercial vehicles?

Going to be many decades before the ICE automobile is put out to pasture. They can make dates, but these will always be pushed back

[Passenger]

Fact is. Until they get the price down to the price of a standard ICE car. They're just not going to sell to the average family

Cheapest car in Canada is the Mini at $40,000 with a few at $41,000 and these are the small cars. Not suitable for a family

Also bear in mind the size of Canada and the US compared to European countries, so they're basically city cars here

Winters in the eastern states and provinces with salted streets take a toll on the bodies and most likely drain batteries

What about trucks, Semi's and large commercial vehicles?

Going to be many decades before the ICE automobile is put out to pasture. They can make dates, but these will always be pushed back

Word, cost, it's a point made on another EV thread. I also know quite a few Americans who do regularly get in their cars and then drive 10, 12 or more hours, it's a bloody big place after all, thus the charge/ mileage anxiety issue, will I guess be a considerable issue.

[Dave+63]

Fact is. Until they get the price down to the price of a standard ICE car. They're just not going to sell to the average family

Cheapest car in Canada is the Mini at $40,000 with a few at $41,000 and these are the small cars. Not suitable for a family

Also bear in mind the size of Canada and the US compared to European countries, so they're basically city cars here

Winters in the eastern states and provinces with salted streets take a toll on the bodies and most likely drain batteries

What about trucks, Semi's and large commercial vehicles?

Going to be many decades before the ICE automobile is put out to pasture. They can make dates, but these will always be pushed back

Whilst that may be true in Canada, non of that really applies to the uk (or indeed, most of mainland Europe).

[Passenger]

Whilst that may be true in Canada, non of that really applies to the uk (or indeed, most of mainland Europe).

Good point, the UK is tiny in comparison, given it's dimensions you'd think prioritising decent, affordable public transport options for all, everywhere, would be a comparative doddle and a much more certain short, medium term climate win...and yet!!!

[Dave+63]

Good point, the UK is tiny in comparison, given it's dimensions you'd think prioritising decent, affordable public transport options for all, everywhere, would be a comparative doddle and a much more certain short, medium term climate win...and yet!!!

And yet the government are getting so much grief over HS2!

[Griswold]

Good point, the UK is tiny in comparison, given it's dimensions you'd think prioritising decent, affordable public transport options for all, everywhere, would be a comparative doddle and a much more certain short, medium term climate win...and yet!!!

But that would need investment, and we know how the government feel about that!

[Passenger]

And yet the government are getting so much grief over HS2!

But isn't the fundamental, core idea more or less already redundant, ie 30 minutes quicker from the norf to the sarf...big whoop in the time of modern telephony, virtual meetings etc, hence the grief plus of course the eye watering cost overruns. The money would've been better spent on new fleets of electric buses around the country, connecting the various outlying regions with their respective central major conurbations, business and retail parks...make em pleasant, safe and affordable to travel upon, there'd be no need for all those private vehicle 5 to 10 km journeys.

[Passenger]

But that would need investment, and we know how the government feel about that!

Yet they continue gifting many hundreds of millions to foreign companies to prevent them quitting the UK...weird huh. Say no more though.

[Dave+63]

But isn't the fundamental, core idea more or less already redundant, ie 30 minutes quicker from the norf to the sarf...big whoop in the time of modern telephony, virtual meetings etc, hence the grief plus of course the eye watering cost overruns. The money would've been better spent on new fleets of electric buses around the country, connecting the various outlying regions with their respective central major conurbations, business and retail parks...make em pleasant, safe and affordable to travel upon, there'd be no need for all those private vehicle 5 to 10 km journeys.

It was written very tongue in cheek,en my five month old grandson knows that HS2 was nothing more than a vanity project and a complete waste of time and money.

[Passenger]

It was written very tongue in cheek,en my five month old grandson knows that HS2 was nothing more than a vanity project and a complete waste of time and money.

Haha doh, sorry blond moment, bit distracted by of all things would you believe... the alternator just now dying, most likely, on our car and we'd a weekend trip away planned starting tomorrow. grrr bloody cars!

[number2]

Good point, the UK is tiny in comparison, given it's dimensions you'd think prioritising decent, affordable public transport options for all, everywhere, would be a comparative doddle and a much more certain short, medium term climate win...and yet!!!

As a bairn in the 70's there were regular subsidised buses even in our remote village, we also had a railway station about a mile from home, nearest city - Sheffield 9 miles.

[Passenger]

As a bairn in the 70's there were regular subsidised buses even in our remote village, we also had a railway station about a mile from home, nearest city - Sheffield 9 miles.

Relied on public transport as a kid 70's and 80's in the Lincs sticks, no motor car, wasn't so great back then, sloooow, lot's of changes and long waits on platforms, always the chance of a breakdown and an exciting emergency bus replacement service! Doubt it's improved.

[meridian]

Electric cars- the Emporers New Clothes.

[Tooks]

Interesting that the EV quota targets remain despite the ICE ban being moved to the right.

Firms still forced to sell more electric cars despite petrol ban delay https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66875554

Should mean some good EV deals going forward.

[higham5]

I cant recall the exact ratio but I remember figures of 9/10 cars manufactured in the UK go overseas. Given Europe has revised its convergence as 2035 then UK car plants may not have been too disturbed.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Interesting that the EV quota targets remain despite the ICE ban being moved to the right.

Firms still forced to sell more electric cars despite petrol ban delay https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66875554

Should mean some good EV deals going forward.

I admire the positivity, but the reality is that for the average person driving a car in the Uk most (if not all EV's) are out of reach. I walked into town today and glanced at the cars parked in a private staff spot behind the Halifax branch. Not one of them was worth more than £12-£15k max.

[Tooks]

I admire the positivity, but the reality is that for the average person driving a car in the Uk most (if not all EV's) are out of reach. I walked into town today and glanced at the cars parked in a private staff spot behind the Halifax branch. Not one of them was worth more than £12-£15k max.

Well, they would have been more than that new, so presumably used.

In 5-8 years time they’ll be £12-15k EVs maybe.

[Dave+63]

Well, they would have been more than that new, so presumably used.

In 5-8 years time they’ll be £12-15k EVs maybe.

There are already plenty of £12-15k EVs on the market and much cheaper too. They start st £2.5k on Autotrader.

£15k will get you a lot of decent nearly new EVs these days. With decent size batteries too.

It’s a recurring theme that reports suggest that brand new EVs are too expensive for people who’ve only ever bought older second hand cars.

Pushing the date back does nothing to help people who can’t afford new cars, possibly the reverse by reducing the number of used cars on the market.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

There are already plenty of £12-15k EVs on the market and much cheaper too. They start st £2.5k on Autotrader.

£15k will get you a lot of decent nearly new EVs these days. With decent size batteries too.

It’s a recurring theme that reports suggest that brand new EVs are too expensive for people who’ve only ever bought older second hand cars.

Pushing the date back does nothing to help people who can’t afford new cars, possibly the reverse by reducing the number of used cars on the market.

Not convinced Dave TBH.

In general, people try and buy a car that they 'like' and peoples priorities are different. I doubt there are many who will want an EV, just because it's an EV.

[Dave+63]

Not convinced Dave TBH.

In general, people try and buy a car that they 'like' and peoples priorities are different. I doubt there are many who will want an EV, just because it's an EV.

That’s true Chris, we all tend to buy what we like. My post was only to highlight that the car park you passed could be filled with EVs of similar values to the ICE that are there now.

EV values are currently dropping quite rapidly so EVs aren’t unaffordable to most any more.

[Tooks]

In general, people try and buy a car that they 'like' and peoples priorities are different. I doubt there are many who will want an EV, just because it's an EV.

Exactly, people buy a particular car for all sorts of reasons, from what they can afford to buy and run through to because they ‘desire’ it.

My first car was a very used Renault 12TL, it was ‘cheap’ and I could afford to insure it. That was the primary reason, what powered it was secondary, but it was freedom for me as a 17 year old lad, and I loved it.

Maybe it’s a generational thing, my daughter is eyeing up an EV because it’s an EV, maybe she has different priorities to people 50 years older than her.

I don’t see how pushing a new ICE car ban further to the right makes anything more affordable for her though, as she won’t be buying a new anything.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

I don’t see how pushing a new ICE car ban further to the right makes anything more affordable for her though, as she won’t be buying a new anything.

I agree, applies to many people. If I am being honest, I reckon the pushback is a face saving exercise by government. The car industry is ploughing ahead but the infrastructure needed is not.

[TaketheCannoli]

The one factor I won't be considering when renewing my car is the environment. I still don't see conclusive evidence that EV is better for the environment than ICE when all factors of production are taken into account. However I'm more opposed to environmental considerations because any positive impact I make will be absolutely miniscule and will be negatively offset a million-fold by the damage being done by polluting countries and the billionaires and millionaires who fly everywhere all the time without a care for the environment.

So it's those guys first please. Governments tell you it's important that you do your bit but it's only so they don't have to.

When I see them all making a massive effort to clean up and 'do what's right' then I'll follow. It starts with the big guys, not the little 'uns.

[Passenger]

Exactly, people buy a particular car for all sorts of reasons, from what they can afford to buy and run through to because they ‘desire’ it.

My first car was a very used Renault 12TL, it was ‘cheap’ and I could afford to insure it. That was the primary reason, what powered it was secondary, but it was freedom for me as a 17 year old lad, and I loved it.

Maybe it’s a generational thing, my daughter is eyeing up an EV because it’s an EV, maybe she has different priorities to people 50 years older than her.

I don’t see how pushing a new ICE car ban further to the right makes anything more affordable for her though, as she won’t be buying a new anything.

Maybe generational, maybe also cos her folks were early adopters, converts? Nature AND nurture sort´ve thing,. maybe.

[mikeveal]

The one factor I won't be considering when renewing my car is the environment. I still don't see conclusive evidence that EV is better for the environment than ICE when all factors of production are taken into account. However I'm more opposed to environmental considerations because any positive impact I make will be absolutely miniscule and will be negatively offset a million-fold by the damage being done by polluting countries and the billionaires and millionaires who fly everywhere all the time without a care for the environment.

So it's those guys first please. Governments tell you it's important that you do your bit but it's only so they don't have to.

When I see them all making a massive effort to clean up and 'do what's right' then I'll follow. It starts with the big guys, not the little 'uns.

And yet collectively us little 'uns have the potential to make far more difference than a handful of bilionaires acting like arseholes.
I'm sorry but your post just reads as: "If it's OK for him to be an arsehole, it must be OK for me to be an arsehole." Newsflash: it really isn't. Using the actions of others as an exuse for your own behaviour shows very low personal standards.

Putting your head in the sand has never been a good survival stragegy.

[TaketheCannoli]

My head isn't in the sand, it's very much looking at lots of people doing more damage to the world than I ever could. Take half a billion heavily polluting old cars off the roads in India (for example) and I might start thinking about it again.

As I said, it's never going to matter what I do. That's not being an arsehole, it's just being a realist.

And yet collectively us little 'uns have the potential to make far more difference than a handful of billionaires acting like arseholes.
I'm sorry but your post just reads as: "If it's OK for him to be an arsehole, it must be OK for me to be an arsehole." Newsflash: it really isn't. Using the actions of others as an excuse for your own behaviour shows very low personal standards.

Putting your head in the sand has never been a good survival strategy.

[Tooks]

My head isn't in the sand, it's very much looking at lots of people doing more damage to the world than I ever could. Take half a billion heavily polluting old cars off the roads in India (for example) and I might start thinking about it again.

As I said, it's never going to matter what I do. That's not being an arsehole, it's just being a realist.

That’s the whole point though, millions of people doing collectively just a little can have a huge cumulative positive impact, the same as millions not doing anything can have a negative one.

Polluted streets in India don’t impact me directly, but ones here in the UK do, which is why (and because I can) I choose to do something about it, however small.

But, I also have a log burner and my house uses oil fired central heating, so I’m part of the problem too, and I’m working on doing something to reduce that.

Billionaires flying around in private jets is nothing compared to the millions flying away on holiday every day, so it works both ways.

The elephant in the room is population growth, it’s nothing to do with EVs, gas boilers or de-carbonising electricity, it’s to do with stretching ever dwindling natural resources and minimising footprint. The UK has done well in reducing our CO2 output, a large part of that is offshoring most of our manufacturing the last couple of decades, something people are either unaware of or choose to forget.

Heck, even the servers hosting websites like this one are a massive contributor to CO2, everything we do consumes something, it’s about minimising it where we can, and some things are easy to do so I do them.

[Longblackcoat]

My head isn't in the sand, it's very much looking at lots of people doing more damage to the world than I ever could. Take half a billion heavily polluting old cars off the roads in India (for example) and I might start thinking about it again.

As I said, it's never going to matter what I do. That's not being an arsehole, it's just being a realist.

The actions of an individual will never influence the world, Gavrilo Princip excepted, but the small actions of millions will make a very large difference.
If you go down the "it's never going to matter what I do" route, then why pay taxes? Why support charities? Why not murder your neighbour if they annoy you? Won't make a bind bit of difference in the grand scheme of things, the world will keep on turning, so just don't worry about it.

[Passenger]

Mate there´s millions and millions of Yanks driving about in gas guzzlers, often 2, 3 or more cars to a home and the way those buggers run their AC, heating, the sheer volume of crap they buy and waste in the pursuit of happiness, it´s mind blowing.
China´s burgeoning middle classes apparently want all the same things. Then there´s the Indian´s.

Can one really claim honestly to have cut own CO2 emissions when in reality they simply been moved elsewhere, as a by product of offshoring, frequently to a place that's got less stringent regulstions and rights, further along the road to depletion of their local environment, local air quality etc. Just seems a bit hypocritical, delusional even. We´ve only the one planet...though I believe Elno´s working on that!

But heck buy an EV, sorted.

[ALindsay]

I seem recall recently reading that car manufactures would be ‘fined’ by the UK Gov. if they didn’t achieve a certain % of EVs over ICEVs Hence, our TVs are getting flooded with EV promotion adverts. A recent visit to a dealer (premium German) told me a different story


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[craig1912]

Mate there´s millions and millions of Yanks driving about in gas guzzlers, often 2, 3 or more cars to a home and the way those buggers run their AC, heating, the sheer volume of crap they buy and waste in the pursuit of happiness, it´s mind blowing.
China´s burgeoning middle classes apparently want all the same things. Then there´s the Indian´s.

Can one really claim honestly to have cut own CO2 emissions when in reality they simply been moved elsewhere, as a by product of offshoring, frequently to a place that's got less stringent regulstions and rights, further along the road to depletion of their local environment, local air quality etc. Just seems a bit hypocritical, delusional even. We´ve only the one planet...though I believe Elno´s working on that!

But heck buy an EV, sorted.

Agree with this -UK net zero is bollocks and impossible. We will still
Be consuming the same stuff, our CO2 footprint will be transferred elsewhere in the world. Anyone that thinks EV is the future needs their head feeling. Spare a thought for the child labour digging up all that lithium and other minerals

[Longblackcoat]

Agree with this -UK net zero is bollocks and impossible. We will still
Be consuming the same stuff, our CO2 footprint will be transferred elsewhere in the world. Anyone that thinks EV is the future needs their head feeling. Spare a thought for the child labour digging up all that lithium and other minerals

God, you're so right! And that recycling stuff - so lame, everyone knows (at least a bloke I met in the pub) that it all goes to landfill anyway after you've bothered sorting it into boxes.

Let's just carry on doing what we're doing. All that global warming is MSM rubbish, and even if it's true, who want to leave a planet for our grandchildren?

If it's hard, I say we should just ignore the problem or make up statistics to prove that the best thing is to keep consuming at all costs.

[aa388]

Not convinced Dave TBH.

In general, people try and buy a car that they 'like' and peoples priorities are different. I doubt there are many who will want an EV, just because it's an EV.

I wouldn’t be surprised at one of the reasons that older ICE cars are bought compared to EV ones is that with let’s say a normal car you can take it to Fred down the road who can hit it with a hammer and spanner, fix it and charge £50 rather than an EV getting diagnosed and fixed for quite a bit more by a shiny garage with a fancy name.

Yes EV has its place but it’s not for me yet and certainly not in lanes 1 and 2 of the motorways at 53mph, which a lot seem to be these days.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[Dave+63]

I wouldn’t be surprised at one of the reasons that older ICE cars are bought compared to EV ones is that with let’s say a normal car you can take it to Fred down the road who can hit it with a hammer and spanner, fix it and charge £50 rather than an EV getting diagnosed and fixed for quite a bit more by a shiny garage with a fancy name.

Yes EV has its place but it’s not for me yet and certainly not in lanes 1 and 2 of the motorways at 53mph, which a lot seem to be these days.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

My local garage happily replaced a wheel bearing on my EV. The only parts that really differ from ICE is the engine, transmission and peripherals; the EV is a battery and an electric motor. Nothing much to need fixing.

[Tooks]

Mate there´s millions and millions of Yanks driving about in gas guzzlers, often 2, 3 or more cars to a home and the way those buggers run their AC, heating, the sheer volume of crap they buy and waste in the pursuit of happiness, it´s mind blowing.
China´s burgeoning middle classes apparently want all the same things. Then there´s the Indian´s.

Can one really claim honestly to have cut own CO2 emissions when in reality they simply been moved elsewhere, as a by product of offshoring, frequently to a place that's got less stringent regulstions and rights, further along the road to depletion of their local environment, local air quality etc. Just seems a bit hypocritical, delusional even. We´ve only the one planet...though I believe Elno´s working on that!

But heck buy an EV, sorted.

I was mostly with you until the last line, that’s what this whole debate keeps boiling down to, and I don’t believe anybody really believes that EVs are ‘the’ solution, merely part of a more sustainable one. The car industry would agree, which is why they’re spending billions on it.

Yes, an individual can do something about their own carbon footprint, assuming they even care enough to work it out. The food you buy, the way you heat your house, where you holiday/how often/how you get there, where and how you work (unless you’re lucky enough to be retired), what consumables you buy etc, and yes that would include the car you drive.

Personally, my carbon footprint from driving an EV is about a third of that of an equivalent petrol/diesel car, even accounting for the extra up front carbon cost building the thing. It was built in a high wage 100% renewable powered German factory, I don’t think anybody is being taken advantage of in that regard.

Every gallon of petrol/diesel burnt in a road car emits 10-12kg of CO2, and won’t ever change. That doesn’t take account of the emissions produced extracting, refining and transporting the road fuel. UK electricity generation has a good chunk of renewables as part of it, but is on average around 233g per kWh, or 66g per mile in a typical EV.

Adding on the carbon delta for the EV production versus a comparable ICE vehicle over its useful lifetime (15g) and that 66g per mile rises to 81g. A 45mpg ICE is around 244g per mile, from just the fuel burnt, as a comparison.

In my own case that’s 2.1 tonnes of CO2 in a EV versus 6.3 in an ICE, every year. As the electricity generation gets lower carbon, so do all the vehicles using it.

I don’t fly any more, a conscious decision, but it’s around 0.25 tonnes of CO2 per hour flying, so my annual footprint driving a car is the same as an 8 hour flight.

So no, not saving the planet, and still polluting it, but if a good chunk of people shifted to EVs it would be a good step forward in lessening the impact of road transport. In fact, de-carbonising the electricity grid would be a huge step forward for all sorts of things that use it.

It’s entirely possible to look at the way you live and make some simple changes that make real reductions in your impact. That’s not hypocritical, nor a waste of time. Having fewer kids is another, but our western society seems to rely on that particular Ponzi scheme to keep things viable…

I’m not a full on hippie, far from it, I just take an interest in what I’m doing and try to do what I can, which on my own is small, but hey I feel better for doing it.

[craig1912]

God, you're so right! And that recycling stuff - so lame, everyone knows (at least a bloke I met in the pub) that it all goes to landfill anyway after you've bothered sorting it into boxes.

Let's just carry on doing what we're doing. All that global warming is MSM rubbish, and even if it's true, who want to leave a planet for our grandchildren?

If it's hard, I say we should just ignore the problem or make up statistics to prove that the best thing is to keep consuming at all costs.

Who said anything is wrong with recycling??

Who said climate change wasn’t happening??

EVs aren’t a sustainable option. We haven’t got the means to generate enough electricity as it is, without millions of EVs adding to the load. They aren’t affordable and secondhand values have plummeted because anyone who buys one is probably going to need a new battery after 5/7 years.
IMO hybrid is the way to go and within the next 10 years that’s what I’ll buy.

[Tooks]

Who said anything is wrong with recycling??

Who said climate change wasn’t happening??

EVs aren’t a sustainable option. We haven’t got the means to generate enough electricity as it is, without millions of EVs adding to the load. They aren’t affordable and secondhand values have plummeted because anyone who buys one is probably going to need a new battery after 5/7 years.
IMO hybrid is the way to go and within the next 10 years that’s what I’ll buy.

Where’s my EV Discussion Bingo card?! :-D

[craig1912]

I don’t think anybody is being taken advantage of in that regard.

Have a look at what’s involved in mining and extracting the cobalt, lithium etc. needed for the batteries. Not only is child labour employed in some countries it also takes huge amounts of water and energy to obtain them.

Then look at the road damage done by these heavy EVs. There is a good argument to tax them more and as more of them appear on the roads that is going to happen to replace the lost fuel duty from IC cars.

[Dave+63]

Who said anything is wrong with recycling??

Who said climate change wasn’t happening??

EVs aren’t a sustainable option. We haven’t got the means to generate enough electricity as it is, without millions of EVs adding to the load. They aren’t affordable and secondhand values have plummeted because anyone who buys one is probably going to need a new battery after 5/7 years.
IMO hybrid is the way to go and within the next 10 years that’s what I’ll buy.

The energy supply companies have never mentioned generating enough electricity to meet demand as being a problem. Presumably, they know best so I wouldn’t worry about that.

As for affordability, I think we covered that a page or so back.

And as for batteries, you appear to be way out, battery packs can outlive the rest of the car before going on to be used for other purposes. My 65,000 mile EV is over eight years old with about 95% of its original range; hardly in need of replacement.

But if you prefer to go hybrid then that’s your decision and a step in the right direction

[Dave+63]

Where’s my EV Discussion Bingo card?! :-D

Got to be getting close to the full house now!

[Tooks]

Have a look at what’s involved in mining and extracting the cobalt, lithium etc. needed for the batteries. Not only is child labour employed in some countries it also takes huge amounts of water and energy to obtain them.

Then look at the road damage done by these heavy EVs. There is a good argument to tax them more and as more of them appear on the roads that is going to happen to replace the lost fuel duty from IC cars.

I have looked at it, in some detail, have you, beyond anything that’s confirmation bias?

It’s way more complex an issue than for this thread, but it’s been discussed in the other one. Clue, cobalt and lithium is used for all sorts of things, as well as EV batteries, if EVs go away, the issue doesn’t. The child labour thing is also more complex, in some countries illegal ‘artisanal’ mines put food on the table of some of the poorest people on the planet. It’s right the issue is being raised, and things are changing, but it was happening before EVs were a thing and will be for some time yet.

An EV is around 250kgs heavier than its ICE counterpart, and actually most are much lighter than a Range Rover etc, so not massively heavier and lighter than a lot of stuff on the road.

Taxing EVs more is obviously a road the government will go down come mass adoption, but it’s nothing to do with whether EVs are viable or not, nor the subject of this thread as it happens.

[craig1912]

I have looked at it, in some detail, have you, beyond anything that’s confirmation bias?
nor the subject of this thread as it happens.

Yes I have far beyond anything that is confirmation bias and fair enough not a subject for this thread.

[Longblackcoat]

EVs aren’t a sustainable option. We haven’t got the means to generate enough electricity as it is, without millions of EVs adding to the load. They aren’t affordable and secondhand values have plummeted because anyone who buys one is probably going to need a new battery after 5/7 years.

Where to begin?

I know, why not come and drive my really boring Nissan Leaf? The one that has 93% of its battery life, at nearly 7 years old. Oh, and which you could now buy on the secondhand market for around £6k.

Apart from that, 100% correct.

[Franky Four Fingers]

Where to begin?

I know, why not come and drive my really boring Nissan Leaf? The one that has 93% of its battery life, at nearly 7 years old. Oh, and which you could now buy on the secondhand market for around £6k.

Apart from that, 100% correct.

DONT FEED THE TROLL

[BillN]

I don't think that there has been any "back-tracking" - electric vehicle sales will still be significant and nothing that the PM has done with stop this.

The economic situation has changed and there is nothing wrong with making changes to ANY policy if circumstances suggest that this is needed.

Another "storm in a tea cup" seated for political confusion.

[jpjsavage]

I don't think that there has been any "back-tracking" - electric vehicle sales will still be significant and nothing that the PM has done with stop this.

The economic situation has changed and there is nothing wrong with making changes to ANY policy if circumstances suggest that this is needed.

Another "storm in a tea cup" seated for political confusion.

Hasn't there been a five year 'back track'?

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

[Tooks]

Hasn't there been a five year 'back track'?

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

On the banning of sales of new 100% ICE passenger cars yes, but not a delay on the sale of new EVs.

This is the reason manufacturers will need to press on, if they want to sell in Europe (Incl the UK) anyway.

Firms still forced to sell more electric cars despite petrol ban delay https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66875554

[jpjsavage]

On the banning of sales of new 100% ICE passenger cars yes, but not a delay on the sale of new EVs.

This is the reason manufacturers will need to press on, if they want to sell in Europe (Incl the UK) anyway.

Firms still forced to sell more electric cars despite petrol ban delay https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66875554

Thanks for the clarification. I think the downside? is that private individuals can delay their potential switch. We have a hybrid Lexus and this suits us fine at the moment and I can't see that changing in the foreseeable future (for right or wrong).


Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

[Tooks]

Thanks for the clarification. I think the downside? is that private individuals can delay their potential switch. We have a hybrid Lexus and this suits us fine at the moment and I can't see that changing in the foreseeable future (for right or wrong).


Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

Yes, but they always could really, as new hybrids (with a ‘substantial’ capability to run in EV only mode) were always going to be on sale until 2035 anyway, and every volume manufacturer has developed or is developing those anyway.

Our household ran a Golf GTE hybrid between 2015 and 2019, and it ticked a lot of boxes and ran in electric only mode for about 60% of its total mileage by the time we sold it. Short journeys up to around 15-18 miles the engine never came on at all, but it was handy for longer ones as well.

I was running an i3 REx alongside it for a while as well, so technically another hybrid, but as soon as bigger battery EVs started appearing we switched to those.

Hybrids are a good interim solution though, albeit the GTE we had was heavy on scheduled maintenance.