WWII pic I'd never seen until Tuesday.

[thieuster]

Below a pic from a memorial museum in the middle of the country.

My cousin Marius and I discussed the lives of our dads last Monday. His dad and mine were always together. Brother Jan (John) the oldest (1918), and my dad 2 yrs younger (1920). After 1935 their lives changed - ultimately dramatically. Jan had become a master carpenter but was unable to find work, so he switched: he went into the army to become a professional soldier: the MP with the idea of becoming a police officer after 5 yrs. My dad was still at school (college) and was a marine engineering apprentice in the late '30s and was drafted into the military when Hitler started rattling the chains of war.

Fast forward to 1940: my dad had an awful motorcycle accident a week before the Nazis invaded the Netherlands, Belgium and France. He was in the military hospital in Leiden (between Amsterdam and The Hague). His war-experiences were limited to seeing and hearing wounded being brought into the hospital after May 10th.

Brother Jan was assigned to a regiment that was defending a hill (Grebbeberg) about 20kms west of Arnhem; where the forests stop and the low-countries start. The hill in the flat landscape was the perfect spot to attack the western part with artillery etc. The Germans started the invasion with the idea of a '24hr walk-over', but that went differently. 3 days of intense fighting followed and only after the Nazis bombed civilians in Rotterdam, the Dutch army surrendered. The Germans did not reach/take the Holland's western part before the capitulation.

The fight for the hill was insanely intense. After seeing the memorial/museum, and this pic on the museum wall I was thinking of various locations in Ukraine these days. Wave after wave of German soldiers slowly but surely advanced. And on May 14th the Staff of the Dutch army ordered troops to surrender.



On the pic are a handful of men. One, the tall blonde guy (third from the left) with his jacket open, is my uncle, 22 y/o. The same age as one of my boys. He, as a professional soldier, was taken as POW. All conscripts were free to go home(!) The situation was surrealistic according to my uncle when he told a few things later-on in life. The German SS troops were absolutely polite. One SS officer asked a Dutch captain where his troops were. The Dutch captain answered that he would tell and expected to be shot. The SS officer replied in a way: "You're a professional and a true leader; I also wouldn't tell it in your place!" Wounded Dutch soldiers were treated by German doctors like they were German troops.

The POWs were marched off to Arnheim and then to Germany. Most were put to work on farmland, others in factories. My uncle wasn't so lucky. He was put to work in an area that later would become Eastern Germany. And he never wanted to talk about that period again. We don't have any idea what happened there. Later in life, my dad said: "He came back a different man!"

For me, this pic is part of my family's history. What strikes me is the parallel with modern days (you know what I'm talking about). Knowing now (a little) what happened to him, gives me the shivers when I think of all those now in Eastern Europe!

[Sinnlover]

That’s a fascinating story, things like this should be written down for future generations, unfortunately WW2 will soon no longer be a living memory.
I am fortunate to still have a grandmother alive but she too refuses to talk too much about the war, my grandfather never talked about it nor Korea or Palestine, but his father was quite happy to talk about WW1, well about all the fun bits.

The picture is interesting (for a geek like me) the short German in front is from an SS unit and his cuff tab would indicate his unit (possibly 1st SS Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler). His collar tab looks to be of a Obersturmbannfüher (Lt Col) - I would think you could identify him with a bit of research. The guy next to him is not SS, he is Luftwaffe. The rest are SS and are wearing one of the very earliest examples of the camouflage helmet covers - actually one of the earliest examples of standard issue cammo.

[thieuster]

Thanks for the details, I didn't know that The arrow-ish thing on my uncle's coat is the corporal insignia. That was already a sign that he was a professional soldier. Conscripts couldn't reach the corporal level.

[vagabond]

That's a great piece of history - both in terms of your family and in general.

The way that the Germans treated the peoples immediately to the West of them, was very different to how they treated the peoples to the East.

[ryanb741]

That's a great piece of history - both in terms of your family and in general.

The way that the Germans treated the peoples immediately to the West of them, was very different to how they treated the peoples to the East.

It was vice-versa to be fair. You didn't want to become a POW at the hands of the Red Army, that's for sure.

[Neil.C]

It was vice-versa to be fair. You didn't want to become a POW at the hands of the Red Army, that's for sure.

Yep.

The two opposing ideologies were headed by despots of the first magnitude and in reality were more similar than opposed.

BTW Great bit of family history Menno.

[JonRA]

A fascinating snippet of history - thanks for sharing. I find these personal histories fascinating.

In March I requested my father's military service records to try and flesh out the few details I know about his wartime experiences. Apparently it can take up to a year before they are available so in the meantime I am reading a few books about the arenas in which he served - one is Jake Wardrop's diary in which his account of his war is set in context chapter by chapter. A very good introduction to life in a tank regiment.

[River Rat]

Like someone said WW2 will not be a living memory. As a kid everyone's dad was a WW2 veteran my JR high school science teacher was in the battle of the bulge. My dad and mom were both alive in WW2 now gone. Glad my dad told me of his time in the US Navy in the pacific in WW2 and Korea and Vietnam. Hope the future generation don't forget what the greatest generation did for us. Hope JonJA has better luck than I did most US WW2 service records went up in smoke due to a fire.

[Raffe]

That's a great piece of history - both in terms of your family and in general.

The way that the Germans treated the peoples immediately to the West of them, was very different to how they treated the peoples to the East.

Plenty of examples of horrible treatments of French and Luxembourgish civilians and prisoners of war. As time went by, all decency disappeared.

It was vice-versa to be fair. You didn't want to become a POW at the hands of the Red Army, that's for sure.

I am not sure the Russians were worse. What the German troops, especially the SS, perpetrated in the East of Europe was every bit as horrid as the Red Army. Mass executions, rape and barbaric torture.

[Norbert]

Lest we forget ….

Whilst we are reflecting … I researched my late father’s brothers service history in WW2 :-
He was in a protected occupation , farm worker during the war , however due to a dispute with his employer over payment of his harvest bonus ( he was saving to get married ) , he resigned and enlisted with the Suffolk Regiment, he was quickly sent to Singapore where he was captured along with many others .
They were then forcibly worked on the infamous railway of death .

This he surprisingly survived , ( I have a number of post cards sent by him from his POW camp to my father via the Red Cross) .

A number of the younger and healthy members of regiment also survived this horrendous experience .
At the conclusion of the railway and very near to VJ Day the surviving POWs were being transported back to Japan to work, allegedly in mines .

The transport was a non Red Cross flagged vessel which was torpedoed by a USA submarine en route.

My uncle was alive floating on wreckage with a colleague ( who I spoke to whilst researching this sad account , he was the first hand source of this information , this gentleman has since died ) .

Unfortunately by the time the Sub surfaced to rescue survivors my uncle had succumbed to his resting place .

The names of the vessel and this incident is widely recorded and my late uncles details are recorded on the memorial at Changi .

I frequently reflect on this horror.

Finally as a small gesture to ensure his sacrifice and this terrible part of our history will not be forgotten by our family , I named my son after my late uncle .
My son is now in possession of the post cards sent from Changi , his posthumously awarded medal and all the research documentation and accounts .
Finally …… my son married in the village church in East Suffolk where the deceased and my family once resided ( as did I for many years ) the war memorial in that church records the details of his name sake who paid the ultimate price for his and our freedom.



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[JonRA]

Like someone said WW2 will not be a living memory. As a kid everyone's dad was a WW2 veteran my JR high school science teacher was in the battle of the bulge. My dad and mom were both alive in WW2 now gone. Glad my dad told me of his time in the US Navy in the pacific in WW2 and Korea and Vietnam. Hope the future generation don't forget what the greatest generation did for us. Hope JonJA has better luck than I did most US WW2 service records went up in smoke due to a fire.

I never had the chance to discuss the war with my father but I know he was a desert rat (North Africa) and then served in Italy and France (where his war ended when he was repatriated 'seriously ill' after being hit by shrapnel). From the bits I've gleaned from various war diaries, he was attached to the Derbyshire Yeomanry, the 3rd County of London Yeomanry, The Gloucestershire Yeomanry, the 5th Royal Tank Regiment - he was in the TA before and after the war but was there was so much reorganisation during the war that it has been difficult keeping track of things. I hope the record makes things clearer but I am not holding my breath :)

[Jimmcb]

If there is one thread I’ve taken the time to read fully, it’s this one for reasons more than I’ll share here. What a very poignant and rollercoaster read. Thank you all for sharing some deeply moving memories and facts.

The people’s of the world have short memories so I agree, we MUST keep these stories alive and think of them when folk try to be smart, condescending and arrogant. There’s more to life and lives gone by than that.

Here’s an example I find remarkable: a week or so ago I was talking about PanAm 103 and the events of 1988. A young guy in his early 30s, a Brit, asked me what it was and how Lockerbie featured. I’ll leave that there….

[thieuster]

Plenty of examples of horrible treatments of French and Luxembourgish civilians and prisoners of war. As time went by, all decency disappeared.

I was just ready to write something about that 'change' and before I started writing I found your comment. Spot on.

In 1940, the Germans considered the Dutch and the Flemish (and partly the Danish in the south part of Denmark afaik) as 'brothers' and together with the Germans, one big German 'volk' (folk). You have to go way, way back in time for that: during the Roman period, German tribes from east (current Germany) travelled to the west (Now The Netherlands and Belgium). That was the first 'hook' for the Nazis to hang their One Folk theory on. The other hook has to do with the language: The Dutch language was called 'Diets' during the middle ages; a string of dialects spoken in the Low Countries, but way, way to the east as well. Only when the first bibles were available after the invention of the book press, things changed into Diets/Dutch and German. We, Dutch call Germany officially 'Duitsland' (as in 'Dietsland')

The Germans didn't want to be considered occupiers and did all they could to win the hearts and minds of the Dutch and the Belgians. But that soon changed when -within weeks after the invasion- resistance groups started to disrupt the Germans. With the ever-growing 'professionalism' of the resistance, the German responds became more and more repressive. Including the things we now see in Ukraine. Dutch resistance fighters eliminated a lot of collaborators. On the other side, Germans tortured people to let them give names and places.

Like written in another posting: yes: my childhood up to this day (I have one uncle left who was 14 when the war ended) is linked with relatives who were in the war. I had a teacher in elementary school who's parents had a ship, transporting goods over the European rivers. During one (holiday trip) he and his father went to see Hitler during a speech/rally in a town where they'd moored the ship. He said that he remembered being afraid of all the noise people made but that he was amazed how happy people looked after leaving the venue.

My uncle never really recovered from the time in the eastern part of Germany. As said, my dad told me that he was changed after that. Still, both were very close. Today I remembered a scene. When my mother passed away, my father was very sad. But he was remarkably 'cool and collective'. However, he broke down when his brother (the young man on the picture) came to our house and when my dad opened the door, saw his older brother he started crying. They sat together for a long time, without speaking. Both were way in their 80s and still, there was this 'band of brothers'.

[JonRA]

Lest we forget ….

Whilst we are reflecting … I researched my late father’s brothers service history in WW2 :-
He was in a protected occupation , farm worker during the war , however due to a dispute with his employer over payment of his harvest bonus ( he was saving to get married ) , he resigned and enlisted with the Suffolk Regiment, he was quickly sent to Singapore where he was captured along with many others .
They were then forcibly worked on the infamous railway of death .

This he surprisingly survived , ( I have a number of post cards sent by him from his POW camp to my father via the Red Cross) .

A number of the younger and healthy members of regiment also survived this horrendous experience .
At the conclusion of the railway and very near to VJ Day the surviving POWs were being transported back to Japan to work, allegedly in mines .

The transport was a non Red Cross flagged vessel which was torpedoed by a USA submarine en route.

My uncle was alive floating on wreckage with a colleague ( who I spoke to whilst researching this sad account , he was the first hand source of this information , this gentleman has since died ) .

Unfortunately by the time the Sub surfaced to rescue survivors my uncle had succumbed to his resting place .

The names of the vessel and this incident is widely recorded and my late uncles details are recorded on the memorial at Changi .

I frequently reflect on this horror.

Finally as a small gesture to ensure his sacrifice and this terrible part of our history will not be forgotten by our family , I named my son after my late uncle .
My son is now in possession of the post cards sent from Changi , his posthumously awarded medal and all the research documentation and accounts .
Finally …… my son married in the village church in East Suffolk where the deceased and my family once resided ( as did I for many years ) the war memorial in that church records the details of his name sake who paid the ultimate price for his and our freedom.



Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

What a sad story - sad on so many levels. But a heartening tribute to your uncle, whose name will live on with pride.

[ryanb741]

I've read and re-read this thread and honestly I find it so difficult to respond to, particularly the posts by thieuster and Norbert. I just cannot comprehend what their ancestors went through - in this day and age it just seems incomprehensible what people endured less than 80 years ago.

Admiration and respect isn't enough - I just don't have the words.

[Raffe]

I've read and re-read this thread and honestly I find it so difficult to respond to, particularly the posts by thieuster and Norbert. I just cannot comprehend what their ancestors went through - in this day and age it just seems incomprehensible what people endured less than 80 years ago.

Admiration and respect isn't enough - I just don't have the words.

Not much different to what people three hours to the east of you are enduring right now.

This isn't about a particular time, it is about the horrors of war.

[Danstone]

Unfortunately my grandfather is no longer with us to discuss his experiences. Certain things were never talked about and, from what we can gather, he was part of the cleanup operation at Belsen. One photo that I have seen, and is hopefully still in the family somewhere, was of his unit taken in Palestine a couple of years later. Seconds after the photo was taken a bomb was detonated by zionist terrorists and the unit was wiped out, apart from my grandfather who was the one taking the photo. I honestly can’t comprehend how anyone could ever recover from that.