Reply With QuoteClearly superior to Rolex in finish?
More of a musing but when GS was hard to find in Europe and folk were scoffing at paying Swiss watch money for 'just a Seiko' for me they represented incredible workmanship and value vs what you'd get from the Swiss brands at the same price. There was also something of a family feel about owning one.
Today I feel they are racing to compete with the true luxury European brands without really bringing out much new and I hear they have been very harsh with how they are treating ADs and are about to go down the Rolex route of insisting on spending £xxxxx to have a dedicated GS area in the AD.
And actually I feel they have stagnated and whereas even 4 years ago what you got for £5k from GS was clearly superior to what you'd get for the same money from Rolex and Omega, today I don't think that's the case any more. Where Rolex and Omega have refined clasps, Omega in particular have upped their finishing, GS basically is left with pretty dials (that they bring out in 4 squillion colours of the same texture), blocky clasps and so on. Sure they have Zaratsu polishing but other brands have caught up.
I'm a bit at a loss as to where they are going. They seem to have lost their Japanese ethos a bit and are acting like a hard nosed European company and I don't feel they've put enough effort in to improve their base models to justify where they clearly see themselves in the market (I think the niche they are after is one occupied by JLC - basically a bit above Omega and Rolex quality wise but sold in hugely smaller numbers).
Clearly superior to Rolex in finish?
Generally, yes they are.
Originally Posted by proby24
Some might need convincing,not me always thought GS were high end.
Might have to throw a Rolex out and get another GS!!.....
Ha ha ha - there is always someone who simply cannot believe that the big R has can be bettered…
Having had many of both, over numerous years and iterations, GS have been superior for quite some time when you look at what you got for your money. And even when you forgot the costs and just compared them as direct rivals.
I agree with Ryan, recent years prices have been on rather an exponential price trajectory without perhaps warranting it - defo feels a bit Because we are worth it! attitude, but not actually justifying it any more with their output.
They have wonderful flashes of quality and individuality, but they miss on the basics sometimes - and it feels like they know, and do not really care??
It is rare that any of the main Swiss players do this.
Bracelets and pins and clasps - the fundamentals of living with a watch after you stop gawking over it - need more effort from GS.
I am wearing a GS now. I recently got rid of my SD43, which is perhaps the comparable watch.
The GS has so many things going for it. It could be one of the greats. For a few hundred quids more of effort, it would slay most Swiss divers less than £10k
It also let itself down badly on some easily sorted details, and as a result needs tolerating.
The SD43 was faultless in what it wanted to do.
There was quite some price difference, admittedly, and it has left the GS feel a bit lacking - but I had enough in the difference in costs to buy another big name diver!
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Last edited by notenoughwrists; 6th July 2023 at 21:02.
Unfortunately I have had better bracelets on a £500 watch.
Pins and collars is a much safer design than screws… And GS only do it on titanium bracelets anyway. Steel is always screws.
I have similar thoughts
I love GS and have had a few, I want anther one but the endless ‘new’ releases just keep putting me off as I see the new one and go oh that’s nice, then think oh give it a few weeks anther nice one will come out and I might prefer that.
The other side is putting the prices up (I know everyone has). But feels too much of a jump again with no improvements generally to the movements or bracelets.
Anther thing is which drew me too them is the ‘exclusivity’ not many AD’s hard to try one on etc, now they are plentiful in AD’s
I own a stainless steel GS diver and a titanium GS diver and both use pin and collars. Wither this is just because both are divers.
Same. The 200m divers (Hi-beat and Spring Drive) use pin and collar in the ti and steel versions
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Ah yeah. Apologies, I thought we were talking divers only.
I think you are right Ryan.
I’m not a GS owner, but I have evaluated them. Dial, indices and hands are definitely top drawer. Cases are very highly polished, but that is something of a liability when watch meets door frame. I don’t care so much about bracelet and clasps as I’m a 5 digit Rolex wearer, and ok with those. Cases could do with being thinner, I remember evaluating a Mt Iwate hi-beat GMT that was as thick as a Sea Dweller!! Movements may have hi-beat, but I don’t think they have invested in silicone / Chronergy the way Rolex have.
My main difficulty is that for all the technical excellence, they still don’t have a cohesive design I can buy into. I do like the SBGN003 design, but that’s too derivative of the 16570 for comfort.
Dave
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Treated myself to this yesterday. Power reserve now on the back. Bracelet is so so but dial is superb as is finishing.
Looking at the above model, I would say GS has addressed many of the commonly complained of problems, power reserve on the back, much lower profile and wrist wrapping lugs, new movement. The problem is the price but that could be said of their rivals too.
However having bought my GS in Jalan before they were available outside, I do agree they have lost that feeling of being part of a club. Of course that was never Seiko’s intention anyway.
I would love one of the watches above though!
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GS are a brand I’ve wanted to like but just can’t find one that really works for me. The bracelets I find all uncomfortable and straps on a sports watch doesn’t work either. If they could bring their same high level of dial detail and finishing for the bracelets to make them comfortable and easily adjustable then I’d buy one for sure.
I've always had a soft spot for GS, mainly because they're not Omega or Rolex.
I love mine. The dial, finishing, legibility and I actually like the power reserve on the front. Only real issue is the bracelet does feel a bit cheap and jangly, but it's really comfy and dead easy to get a perfect fit. If they offered more micro adjust bracelets with their other watches then I'd be all over them (micro adjust clasps are must have for me)
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I think the key problem for GS is the sheer number of models they bring out every year.
The quality is superb, particularly the dials, but as already mentioned there a quite a few 'misses' on the cohesive design front.
Still one of my favourite brands though.
£9k watches with stamped clasps
God-awful looking ratcheting system no different than their £1k divers
No adjustment at all outside of dive watches and the same bracelet and clasp for probably 20 years
Tell yourself whatever you need to but you buy a GS for the movement, finishing, and dials. Everything outside of that is substandard for the price.
I think this is a real problem of their own making. For each customer who 'must have' each one, there must be two or more who thinks, 'let's wait and see what they bring out next'.
Can't fault the OP - pretty and well-made watches with some rather special movements, no question, but I really struggle to see a compelling USP now that prices have been bootstrapped to 'WTF?' levels (C'mon - nearly £6K for a quartz diver?!).
Aesthetically, (i.e. personal subjectivity), they all have 'Seiko Disease' - which is to nearly get it right, and then do something stupid to snatch defeat from glorious victory - there's always some jarring feature somewhere... Pet hate: those truncated hand-sets that look like they've had their tips circumcised. Dammit I hate those, and they seem to be creeping-in everywhere -
And why are their dive watches so clunky when their dress watches are (mostly) sleek and elegant? Surely there's a market for a much more refined diver-style watch that is as sleek and elegant as the constraints of its category allow?
And then there's their inconsistent specifications and extremely confusing hierarchy of watch models - just finding what you want is a time consuming challenge, especially when all you have to go-on are instantly-forgettable model-numbers...
I don't hate them, some are absolutely beautiful objects with superb movements, but I do question the bandwagon they've jumped-on.
When you have the (expensively-purchased) brand-recognition of Rolex, you can get away with it, but for the average man-on-the-street (or gulf club bar, more like), if "Seiko" means anything, it means the kind of thing you used to buy on a garage forecourt because your last one's battery had run-out. To normal people (i.e. not us), that matters more than anything else...
Coffin hands - @earl
Coffin hands and seiko disease. Both hilariously accurate.
Indeed!
Ive tried many a time to "get on with GS" - ive had 5 ish, none have lasted long.
The dials are superb, no doubt about that.
Their stamped ratcheting clasps are the worst ive ever come across on a multi thousand pound watch, genuinely laughable and I dont think I'll ever buy one of their offerings with one again.
This puts me in a bit of a GS hinterland because the chunky dive style watches that I gravitate to rule themselves out due to the clasps and I dont tend to like dressier watches, which rules out the likes of the cherry blossom (spectacular) and snowflake dials etc.
That said, my dad has a snowflake and wears it above everything else. He's proper trashed the bracelet with scratches though.
Does this boil down to the same discussion being had about Omega, Rolex, Tudor et al, Ie, watches have got expensive?
I think the comparison with JLC is far more relevant than the endless comparisons with Rolex you see, even all over the GS fan forums.
I've noticed the beginnings of some erosion of loyalty in recent months from die hard fans. The increasingly dubious inspiration for new models has no doubt contributed (Lake Suwa on a slightly overcast midweek day in June, etc..), but also due to GS 'doing the dirty' on buyers of some of their limited edition models - I've seen it a number of times now with LE's where a few months after release, if that LE has proven particularly popular they bring out another non-LE version that's all but identical. To a lesser extent I experienced this myself when my US-only 'Winter' then became available worldwide suddenly, and it leaves a bit of a bad taste.
In contrast, if you think back to just a few years ago there was an onging joke about Omega and the endless number of LE's they seemed to be churning out. They've largely stopped with that and I think they even released a statement to say as much. Instead they've doubled down on the classic Speedmaster Pro model, with a succession of price rises and of course the attention the MoonSwatch has brought.
I think if GS want to maintain and grow credibility they need to stop undermining themselves and pissing off fans and limit their output of LE's to genuinely unique models, and concentrate on getting the few and easily fixable sub-par elements like lack of micro-adjust sorted.
This.
Simply 100 times, this.
I do wish I’d kept the Godzilla though.
I like them personally.
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I really like them, I used to have a titanium diver and now have a snowflake.
However, I agree that the bracelets aren’t really up to scratch. The clasp on the diver was no better than the clasp on my non-grand seiko diver, and I really wish the snowflake had micro adjust.
Ha! Nailed-it!
Always had a notion to pick up one of the quartz GMTs, but left it too late. Now, like everything else Seiko, the prices are too absurd and the QC too much of a lottery.
QC I don't believe is a lottery on GS. Seiko absolutely.
I’ve always been put off by the service options. Read quite a few bad reviews about GS watches being serviced by Seiko UK. There doesn’t seem to be a way around it. I’m not aware of any independents who can service GS.
My dream watch
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Bit of a lotto on whether the quartz models hit the markers
I’d like to have nice white dial gmt watch, but none of them have any lume. And automatic models are too thick if you compare to 5 digit explorer II.
I want to like GS, but there is something I dislike on just about every single watch and it’s not always the same thing. There is always something out of proportion, one too many fonts used, an angle / shape on a case that really should not be there or an incongruous hand shape. (or a fictional lizard on a case back), it’s usual quite subtle but I can’t help but think if only… a lot of the time. I would rather have one of the vintage reissue Seiko at a slightly lower price point (I.e. the new 62 MAS or the 1962 diver - gorgeous watch).
I appreciate the finishing, it looks great especially when brand new and sitting under the boutique lights. The dial textures offer something different to the competition and are interesting to look at but they just don’t do it for me, they are too fussy. I would not want to own one. And as everyone knows, the bracelets are pretty poor at the price point - fine on an MM300 not on a GS.
I like they are different but they need to resolve some of the above (not all) in order speak to a wider market IMO.
At the moment they sit in their own segment of the market, liked by watch geeks who usually have a load of other watches and fancied trying something different, For the more normal less OCD general public in the UK who only have 1 or 2 watches, if given a choice between a black dial GS diver or an Omega SMP, 99% would choose the later based on both looks and brand recognition I would think. This is their biggest problem, they need to stop being the quirky alternative that’s ok for a change and start to be considered a real option against the usual suspects.
Last edited by Sinnlover; 8th July 2023 at 06:48.
I think that you'll struggle to find a brand with more class and better finishing, even if the competition has improved. There are small niggles for some but none that I've noticed. Two things that have surprised me is that firstly, they seem to be concentrating on improving their movements with prices to match yet the movements were top notch in the first place so why bother. Secondly, they seem to be very much blurring the lower end of the range with the top of the Seiko range which seems a little odd to me, I would have though that in the UK especially, they'd want a defined distinction between the two ranges.
I agree with the dials but here's something that did surprise me. My local AD had a shipment in and had 3 White Birch Hi Beats. All 3 of them had identical dials. I mean the textures were identical, the grooves were in exactly the same position. There were no differences at all whatsoever which makes me think the dials aren't artisanally made individually with little idiosyncrasies but that actually there is some mechanised process in the manufacturing process that makes every dial identical. Fine by me but it kind of takes away from the 'hand finished' vibe.
For real hand finishing I think Minase is an excellent Japanese alternative and the Divido has the best bracelet on the market among the mainstream brands and I rate the bracelet finishing, design and construction superior to that on the Royal Oak (clasp aside).
BTW I love some Grand Seikos still - the SBGH273 is to my eyes the most beautiful and best made everyday watch in its price point and is superior to the Datejust and Aqua Terra that I guess it competes against. But then again that was supposed to be a US Ltd edition piece and all of a sudden GS go global with it and put it on general worldwide release. I'd be a bit miffed if I'd snagged one from the US thinking it was going to remain a rare piece
The dials are stamped - they don’t make any secret of it.
https://www.grand-seiko.com/be-en/sp...umi/matsumoto/
Ah interesting thanks for sharing.
I see GS as a work in progress, a brand that’s evolving at a much faster rate and with more creativity than you’re likely to see from the Swiss, mainly because it still needs to. While most big name brands settled on a series of predictable model lines decades ago, you never quite know what GS will do next. The ‘Evolution 9’ collection is a case in point, with a much needed rethink of their chronograph, and a fully flush clasp. Perhaps that chronograph will eventually shrink to a manageable size, along with the divers. They only recently started to make mechanical movements thin enough to make the proportions of some models work, and that transition hasn’t reached all the models yet. On that note, a prediction - next year is the 60th anniversary of the watch that first introduced the GS signature style, the ‘Self-Dater’. This was first revived nine years ago as a 50th anniversary 9F quartz, a superb limited edition that’s hard to find. Now they actually have a thin hand wound movement suitable for a mechanical version. I’m expecting another re-issue of what for me is one of their best and most wearable designs. Unfortunately I’m also expecting it to be another painfully expensive limited edition.
I agree that there’s often one niggle that holds back an otherwise great watch, though this is true of all brands, it’s very hard to make a faultless watch it seems. There are a lot of moans about micro adjustment, but I believe this is because people simply don’t know how to adjust the bracelets properly - which is understandable, it’s far from easy or obvious. It bears repeating that the ‘half links’ are 2/3 links, so the brackets are adjustable in 1/3 link increments. To go down by 1/3, replace a whole link with a 2/3 link, or two 2/3 links with one full link. To go up 1/3, replace a whole link with two 2/3 links, or a 2/3 link with a whole link. Then consider where the clasp should sit, which can also change how it fits. It’s time consuming and fiddly, but a properly adjusted GS bracelet will provide perfect all year comfort. They don’t have the heft of some brands, but it would be a mistake to confuse weight with quality.
My G-Shock has Zaratsu polishing.
Zaratsu polishing is basically just black polishing or mirror polishing. It has nowt to do with GS and Zaratsu is basically the Japanese way of saying 'Sallaz-su' which refers to the European Sallaz polishing machines that were imported to Japan to do polishing. Japan has no tradition of inventing mirror polishing on watches, that was a European construct.
And who currently makes the finest polishing machines in the world (they manufacture them for Patek amongst others)? Kyowa, the parent company of Minase!
Tbh, I never thought that the dials at the White Birch price point were individually made. Part of that thinking is because the SBGW263 at £87k has a hand engraved white gold dial and while it's a platinum watch, it's still £87k so a watch at £9k, even stainless steel, is unlikely to be hand engraved.
I like those Minase watches, thanks for the tip.
I'm always intrigued by bracelet related reviews. I've never felt the need for micro adjust as my wrists don't seem to swell but I've often wondered what makes a good bracelet for a customer. I've tried various and while there are some that I find more comfortable than others, I always feel that it's subjective. I tried on a White Birch and thought that the bracelet was about as good as it can get from my point of view so I'd be intrigued to try what others consider to be better.
The male end links on Grand Seiko bracelets are as much of a killer as the lack of micro-adjustment for me. Male end links just make the watches wear too big for those of us with smaller wrists.
I'm also a bit bemused at the case heights ... even the quartz ones seem overly chunky vs what they used to be.
Good perspective.
The watch world do not really like evolution too much, I think.
Nice to see, if true, some attempt to go somewhere different - but at the same time I do not care what my Son will be buying in 15 years.
I want a watch with a decent clasp now!
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Mirror polishing tends to be interpreted as very high quality finishing which far exceeds standard polishing, but for me it’s simply an aesthetic choice. On the plus side, it gives the brand a signature style, and means the watches can look completely different when you change environment and lighting. This gives them a fascinating mercurial quality which is accentuated by the dials, many of which also present a range of effects in different lighting. All watches do this to some extent, but for GS it’s a stand out feature. Mirror polishing is a matter of taste though, and it’s the reason I find the white Omiwatari bracelet a bit over the top, it’s completely dazzling. The 44GS case is also a pretty bold statement out of the box, and you could argue that some of the watches look better when they pick up a bit or dirt and patina and calm down a bit. I don’t think, for instance, that a VC Overseas would look better or be better finished with every polished surface mirror polished, it looks right the way it is.
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