Received a penalty charge for driving into a bus gate (no, me either) in a city I'd never visited before. I appealed on the basis that I came out of a car park with L and R option and no sign of impending restrictions in either direction. I took the L and that led me on a one way street to a junction with another one way street in which the said bus gate was. In other words, once committed L out of the car park, there was no way to avoid the bus gate.
The appeal was dismissed on the basis that there are signs on the approach to the car park. Given that I was leaving the car park some days after parking up, this seemed harsh, to say the least. Surely there should be a warning sign/notice at the time you are required to make a decision in which direction to pick - in this case, at the car park exit.
Plan to take it to the adjudicator but I'd be interested to hear any relevant experience.
(Had a quick look at the Pepipoo forums but couldn't see any discussion of the specific point.)
Seems odd. So anybody, under every circumstance will envitiably infringe if they turn left out of the car park, unless they are driving a bus?
If that's the case, cant see how you can lose. Surely turn left should not be signed out of the CP
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Basically, yes. From 7am to 7pm - but 7 days a week.Originally Posted by xxnick1975
That’s certainly my view. It’s “inviting” visitors to make an innocent error. But the idea that a sign you saw a few days ago is deemed adequate warning is baffling. If the objective is to keep people compliant, give them an even break!! Managed to go decades without driving in bus lanes because they are (almost) invariably properly signed.
Another bizarre angle. The penalty appears to attach to the registered keeper. Don’t think I was asked to give the driver. So I could drive into the car park while other half asleep so doesn’t see the sign that was supposed to warn. Other half takes the wheel to leave the car park. How’s any charge legal in that situation??
Presumably you lose your 50% early payment discount if you take it to the adjudicator?
I’m sure you do! What a great scam they have going!
That’s always bugged me about appealing fines like these. They should freeze the time so if you appeal within the early discount window and it is rejected, you still have an opportunity to use the window after the rejection.
I didn’t when I took mine to the adjudicator.
That was with Manchester City council . Even if I’d lost, I would’ve still only had to pay the reduced fee.
Not sure if that still stands .
I’d definitely appeal again though if I was in the the OPs shoes. It sounds like it could be an oversight and if there’s no warnings on the exit , I’d be more than hopeful of a favorable response
I thought when you start the appeal process, the "discount" period freezes and resumes if the appeal fails. I may be wrong on this, its at least the case in 2 London boroughs I've had fines in, it may not apply across all LAs.
I would highly recommend the Pepipoo forum. Very knowledgeable folks that are fantastic at holding these cartels accountable. Its important you don't communicate or start the appeal until you've got their input, as you only get 1 chance to appeal. Once its in, you can't edit your appeal content.
Sorry, just read the OP properly. Already appealed and denied, bugger.
For what its worth I share your pain. I once had bailiffs sent round because when I moved, I hired a van and despite putting my new address on the rental form and accruing a PCN, TfL insisted on using my driving licence address. In spite of the fact that the allegedly found the driver of the rental van from the rental form, which had my new address on it. They're idiots.
Thanks. That's useful. Need to check time limits and decide how much time I can spend on this. Absolute shameless so and sos.
Thanks all. At least I'm not going mad! Well, not in thinking I've been had over.
Can you give us the location, love to take a look on google maps.
Cheers,
Ben
..... for I have become the Jedi of flippers
" an extravagance is anything you buy that is of no earthly use to your wife "
I did exactly this in Derby. Only option once turned out of the carpark was keep going or U-turn and drive the wrong way down a one way street. i got a fine too and appealed and was rejected because "it was sign-posted". I even went back on Streetview to check and the bus-gate signs are exactly where the carpark signs are (which is what I was was obiously looking out for). I just chalked it up to bad luck/poor street layout. Derby centre wasn't exactly a tourist destination anyway so I don't intend to return.
I have had a run in with TFL gestapo on several occasions. Whether you are dealing with TFL or not, I believe the advice is useful.
Firstly, you are correct, it feels like a shade of grey of a legalised scam. The adjudicator would be clogged if everyone decided to appeal whether they had a reason to do so, or not. That is why they discourage you from doing it by offering a 50% discount carrot if you pay within 14 days.
It still is possible to get the 50% discount frozen by TFL by going to the adjudicator. When the letter drop on your doormat, instantly appeal and that freezes the process.
Appealing to TFL is like appealing to the operator of the guillotine who has been instructed to chop off your head. Completely futile, even if you have the strongest of cases, TFL will reject your appeal.
Once they reject your appeal the clock starts ticking again, that is when you have the remaining time within the 14 days for you to write to the adjudicator, send your evidence and the adjudicator writing to start the process with TFL. This takes 10-14 days, so you see it can be done. By acting very fast I managed to get a contravention frozen at 50% with the adjudicator, but for most people it it too many hoops to jump through in too short a time, and most people sacrifice the discount when going to the adjudicator, including me for another appeal I had.
The appeals are strict, as there on only certain circumstances you can appeal on, such as 'the contravention did not occur'. TFL will fight you to the death as they do not want any precedent set.
My recommendation is that if you believe you have a strong case, take it to the adjudicator. Be aware that you will probably put in a lot more time than the money you will save. But, nothing beats the self satisfaction of beating TFL, which I did.
If you don't have a strong case, suck it up, even if you are p1ssed off. Put it down to experience. The hassle of going through all of this just to get a letter to say the contravention has been upheld is just not worth it.
The one in Mcr has I think 3 signs before it but you have to know what a bus gate is. I only found out about it thro a cyclist posting on You Tube
What if the car was driven into the car park by one person and driven out by another?
Which City?
If you are taking it to the adjudicator you’ll likely need photographs of all relevant signage. Good to get a local person to take some pics
If its a council run car park I’d think you’ve got a good chance. If it’s private possibly less so.
Good luck
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The new one on Bridge St ?
This was my first thought when I read the OP . Wether it is or not, I’m not sure but there’s a potentially similar situation . The Bridge St car park is always busy and a lot of people will use it for access to the courts. If you turn right ou5 of the car park you are immediately in a bus gate heading towards Salford train station . If you don’t know the area or indeed the new bus gate, it could be a very profitable route for the council .
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. Sorry I haven't been around for a few days to respond.
Not sure it matters but I'd prefer not to name the city, for now, at least.
Two things which make this even more Kafkaesque (I think the correct term is) than it already was.
(1) The letter refusing my appeal was sent from an email with a "donotreply" address. The letter says " ... on the date your vehicle travelled through the bus lane, I am satisfied you would have passed the advanced warning signs ...". Well, as a question of fact, I didn't. So the person responding has made up a "fact" as a basis on which to refuse my appeal.
And that's on top of no attempt being made to establish who teh driver was on entering and then leaving the NCP car park.
(2) The grounds for appeal to an independent adjudicator are limited. They do not include a claim that signage was inadequate or misleading!
So, basically, I have been well and truly scammed!
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