Hoping someone with expertise can advise...
Our son's flat is electric only and has storage heaters, but we suspect the wiring is pear-shaped.
The DAY and NIGHT meters are clearly wired the wrong-way around as the reading marked NIGHT/LOW clocks up during the day - proven with a kettle test - and averages 25 kwh per day in winter. The reading marked DAY/HIGH is currently putting on just 3 kwh per night. Readings provided to the energy supplier have always been switched to reflect the reversed wiring, which is not a big issue in itself other than suggesting the installer had a bad day, but it does lead me to question the wiring to the two storage heaters...
We have no previous experience of storage heaters, but understand such should be wired to two circuits - one connected to the night meter for storage at the cheaper rate, and the other circuit to the day meter for controlling the output?
Might it be possible that the installer wired the storage heaters such that they store heat at the higher daytime rate - which in this instance would mean being wired to the meter reader marked NIGHT/LOW?
He is consciously using minimal power this winter given the higher costs of electricity - wearing thermals and a hat indoors, doesn't have a tumble dryer, doesn't even switch the hot water cylinder on and relies on the electric shower. Its a small one bedroom flat with other flats above, below and either side so £300 for last month's electricity feels excessive.
Thanks for any advice
How confident are you with minor electrical work like taking covers off to check wiring? If you aren't there's not much that can be said to help & you'd be better off getting an electrician in.
A start would be to find out the make & model of the heater & then it might be possible to find the wiring instructions to see if it's a single supply or dual supply type. To get very far you'd really need some way of measuring whether a cicuit is live - a voltage stick might be enough.
Thanks Mr Pointy. I'm happy to take a cover off though unfortunately I'm back home in Edinburgh now - son's flat is Glasgow and I wouldn't trust him not to kill himself! I'll try to go over there with a voltmeter in the week.
The heaters are model TSR18MW by Creda. I can't find much online as they're discontinued - would 230/240v AC single phase suggest single supply? Certainly quite basic.
Last edited by Halitosis; 12th February 2023 at 19:43.
The installation instructions are here:Originally Posted by Halitosis
https://cdn3.all-guidesbox.com/downl...ml?mode=binary
It does seem to have just one connection so it's a case of checking through the wiring in the flat to see which meter it's been wired to. Can you turn off the output from each meter in any way?
Storage heaters are all back to front these day, with most people being out of their property all day and needing heat in the morning and evening only, but then all day at the weekends.
I bought a house with full electric storage heaters in 2007 and immediately binned them all and replaced the wiring and heaters for modern electric panel heaters. The nice thing with electric is that every penny you spend gets turned into heat, unlike gas and oil alternatives. Yes, at the moment it's expensive, but if your flat is well insulated from the outside cold, then it would be a perfectly reasonable way to heat the place. Also, no cost for annual services and they're very unlikely to break down too.
If you buy modern wifi controlled panel heaters, maybe oil filled, then you could set them up to be very efficient and only on when heat is needed. (See link)
From the wiring POV, that all sounds like a right mess. I'd decide what you want to do and employ a proper electrician to come and change it all over for you. In fact, I'm not sure if an electrician is allowed to change meters. I expect that'll be the elec company who'll have to come and change you back to a single smart meter.
https://www.heatershop.co.uk/electri...tric-radiators
Does the meter show the correct time?
^^^
I agree, this could be the issue, rather than the wiring.
Many years ago, I had Economy 7 storage heaters and the timeclock within the meter went bonkers, for us meaning the storage heaters and immersion were on 24/7 rather than just the 7 hours overnight.
Trying to get through to anyone at the supplier/metering outfit in order to get it fixed was an absolute nightmare.
Thanks all, and good question regarding the meter clock. In all honesty I hadn't even considered that the meter might have a clock...
The kwh charge is 1/3rd of the price during off peak low hours, so as long as storage heaters are properly managed (and efficient enough to only dissipate heat when wanted) then I imagine they're still a better option than panel heaters. I'm mulling over replacing these old models with high heat retention models - cost maybe £700 each but hopefully recoup that over a few winters.
There appears to be no clock or timer of any kind at the meters (which are analogue). So how does it know when to switch on the low rate circuits that supply the storage heaters - which I guess is the fuse box on the left. Might there be a timer within one of the sealed boxes?
Last edited by Halitosis; 13th February 2023 at 22:54.
That black box looks like a radio teleswitch, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch.
They're almost obsolescent, if it is one might be worth checking it's still working as it should.
Thanks Kingstepper - think you’re right and I’ve learned something today!
So the switching on and off of the low rate meter and circuits is controlled by a long wave radio signal emitted by the BBC for the energy supplier, which as you say is near obsolete. At least it rules out a dodgy timer clock.
My plan is to test at the heaters for daytime current, pursue Eon for a smart meter, for which they keep fobbing us off, and install plexiglass secondary glazing.
Cheers again all
That's good, though I wouldn't rule out that switch being dodgy.
Thinking about it, if the circuits are swapped surely most stuff would only be on during the day? Can you (safely) wire something like a lamp to the heater circuit and see whether it is on permanently or just for just 7 hours (though maybe at the wrong time)?
That photo looks very much like my old setup.
It is hard to see in the photo, but there appears to be an arrow in the meter window which points at the counter which is active at the time, this should switch over (using the radio time signal) at around 00.00 - 01.00 from NORMAL to LOW. It should then switch back from LOW to NORMAL at 07.00 - 08.00 (ish) giving you 7 hours of 'low rate' electric.
Assuming the meter is switching properly, overnight (when the meter is on LOW), ALL of your home circuits should be on, including the night storage heaters. So both left and right boards will have power.
During the day when the meter is at NORMAL, the night storage heater circuit should be dead, ie unpowered, but the rest of the circuits will remain live. So the left board should be dead but the right board will still have power.
With a bit of tinkering/testing, I think you should be able to test quite quickly if the meter is working as it should, but it may mean waiting up until 01.00 to do so.
My money is still on the meter switch not working properly, as it seems hard to believe that no one has noticed the storage heaters not working as they should be for (30-40??ish years).
My very similar meter was installed in 1989 btw.
Last edited by Maysie; 14th February 2023 at 10:11.
If you can switch to Octopus first and then ask for a smart meter, you'll be doing yourself a favour.
The company they use to fit the smart meters is excellent, we had one last month.
And then the app and in home reader screen you get are also great. It may be that EON use the same company, but possibly not.
I see that you have separate 16 amp circuits for the storage heaters already in, so assuming the wiring is ok and reasonably new, my suggestion above, of changing the storage heaters to modern panel or oil filled electric rads, would be very simple to do.
Then you get instant heat when you need it and no faffing about when you don't.
This community never fails to deliver - thanks all.
I'll get over there at the weekend, test the circuits and look to wire up a lamp so my son can see when they go live. I'll also take a closer look at whether that is an arrow by the meter readings - I suspect not though it wouldn't be the first time I've failed to notice something at the end of my own nose!
Will report back next week, and cheers again
i have a correctly wired economy seven meter and modern computer controlled smart storage heaters and my bill last month with my partner staying and insisting on 22/23° all day and having a full bath (immersion heater) and a shower per day was just under £290.He is consciously using minimal power this winter given the higher costs of electricity - wearing thermals and a hat indoors, doesn't have a tumble dryer, doesn't even switch the hot water cylinder on and relies on the electric shower. Its a small one bedroom flat with other flats above, below and either side so £300 for last month's electricity feels excessive.
Thanks for any advice
It definitely is an arrow on the meter between the 2 rates (low and normal) that switches between the 2 rates to indicate which one it is collecting on.
What time of day was the picture taken? If after around 7.30am gmt and before 12.30 (midnight) aprrox then it looks like its running correctly on day rate as it should be- if it wasn't switching to low rate you would have no availability on the storage rads (i.e they wouldnt come warm at all.)
The grey 16mm cable on the far right of the radio teleswitch is the off peak live to the off peak, storage heater board (call it what you wiil) and that comes live at the given times to bring the o/p board live and therefore allow avalibilty to the storage rads. Test that with a volt stick ie dead during the day live during the night would be correct.
The cream coloured part below with the cables coming out of it looks to me like a prento rising main, now depending on the area DNO/supplier you may struggle to get a metering company to work on it- also it depends on the guy who turns up- reletively new to the game meter monkey, no chance . An old school ex electricity board guy maybe?
So with storage heaters are there effectively two circuits, one peak and one off peak?
What happens if you want more heat from your heater during peak hours?
Storage heaters score very high on EPC assessments and I’m considering adding them to a rental property but I’m not clear on the wiring implications.
Err... all my storage heaters have only been connected to the consumer unit supplied by the "night" output from the meter.
The heat up during the night cycle and the release during the day is a simple mechanically controlled flap on the top that manages airflow - the flap is open more when it's cold and closes when the room comes up to temperature.
There's no powered control of the release, and similarly there's no way of boosting the heat during the "day" hours.
Yes, ours have the overnight feed plus an extra 13 amp feed to allow boost heat.
Yes, some do have a boost available on the day rate (at a now large cost) ,some do not.
Also, sorry I might have not explained myself very well- the teleswitch switches the rates over on the meter at same time as it brings the availability of the off peak/storage heater board on. So all usage 12.30ish until 7.30am ish is on low rate.
Last edited by chaplad; 17th February 2023 at 00:27.
You appear to have nailed it Maysie. Closer inspection proves it is indeed an arrow and my son happens to have retained photos from each time he’s taken meter readings. The photos were all taken during daytime hours yet that arrow is pointing at LOW in around half the photos, so the teleswitch must have become faulty.
Next challenge then is to convince Eon of that and get it changed.
Heaven knows if we have a claim for the recent astronomical bills, but it would be nice to get it sorted.
I had to have my meter swapped reciently as it nearly 20 years old - they can become unreliable- that certainly looks older than that
So with storage heaters you effectively have two sets of wiring, one normal and one for the night time economy 7, is that correct?
Then some of the more modern heaters connect to both to allow a daytime boost where as older units are just on the night time feed and have mechanical means to control heat release?
So to install new storage heaters I’d need to get a new set of meters installed and wire in the off peak wiring. Quite a big job.
Although if his meter is stuck on LOW then he gets cheaper electricity during the day, although sounds like the whole system needs a bit of a sort out really.
I'd suggest your son gets up early, stays up late and watches for the exact time the meter changes over (or fit a recording camera in his wifi) - then have the exact details if he wants to pursue the supplier.
Did you have a choice not to go with a smart meter as part of the swap?
Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
Correct on all point Montello. If still sold, I guess you could opt for cheaper storage heaters that only require wiring to the low rate circuit, but while re-wiring you may as well go the whole hog.
Can I ask why one would choose not to receive a smart meter - they’re supplied free aren’t they?
https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...ht=smart+meter
Made me stop and think
Thanks blackal- food for thought
Expensive to change to and the heaters are expensive too. But they score high on EPCs. That is my only interest in installing them.
Glad to hear, it sounds like you are getting to the bottom of it.
When my own time-switch broke, the storage heaters were on all day meaning we had to open the windows to get rid of some of the excess heat. I did manage to get a reduction in the charges for electricity that I did not want, but was 'forced' to use due to their faulty switch - it wasn't easy to convince them though!
I did
Well, its up to you but if I had an E/7 storage heater setup that was on low during the day I would be feeling pretty pleased with it all and not rushing to pursue it and or definately not get the meter changed.
For anyone interested in an update, I went back to the flat this morning and tested the circuitry for current. The teleswitch had the meter switched to LOW - evidenced by the slowly rotating meter and now obvious arrow - how did we never see that before? The wiring at the storage heaters tested live, so we know now that the meter is correctly wired.
Two issues exist:
Firstly the teleswitch is faulty so we need to get onto the supplier to get that changed.
Secondly, Eon have always taken the LOW meter reading as being the NORMAL usage and vice versa. This has clearly been the case since before our son acquired the flat and moved in. The meters are 35,000 kWh apart, and my son flagged the reversal to them on his first meter reading submission but was fobbed off that such reversals are common and not to worry.
Currently composing an email to Eon. Not sure what to suggest with regards to correcting historic billing rates. Anyone have any idea what approximate split the average Economy 7 customer experiences between low and high tariff?
Fair point but for the fact the storage heaters are being charged at the higher daytime rate as described above.
Ah yes you are right if the "low" rate is indeed being being billed as the "Normal" or day rate.
This is not a normal arrangement despite what Eon have told you IMO -the only common adjustment I would say happens with E/7 is the two rates are added together to give one total reading converting it to single rate.
This/was is often used as a way around having to change the meters where for example, the customer has changed their method of heating from electric storage heaters to gas C/H.
I would send your email to Eon and say you want lodge a complaint- you will end up with a resolution manager- say you dont know how you ended up with this arrangement and didn't undersatand the implications for the cost of the bill. You probably will struggle to get anywhere with them so contact the ombudsmen-OFGEM. see what they say about it.
Its very difficult to say what the comparison is between the 2 rates- take the 2 readings over a month of using the heating- then reverse them so they are correct and see what you use as a comparison?
Franky Four Fingers' thread prompted me to post an update to this thread.
We secured a refund/credit of something like £800. The supplier also promised to come and replace the faulty teleswitch, though such has yet to happen and we certainly aren't chasing them as things are currently working in our favour
A focus on efficient use of power actually has 2023 bills averaging under £40 per month, compared to £300 at the start of this thread. A rare good news story in current times
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
