Reply With QuoteAs far as I’m aware, the human ear cannot define where very low bass is coming from, so positioning of a sub woofer in a room doesn’t really matter.
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Hi all - I know there are many stereo enthusiasts on here, so I was hoping some of you could offer advice and experience on getting your Sub setup spot on.
I'm probably different to many in that I don't really care about use of the Sub for Home Cinema, but for music playback to fill in the missing low end.
Recently went with KEF Q550s to match up with my Marantz Stereo Receiver and Marantz SACD Player. Delighted with the clarity and detail throughout, and it's a joy to hear details from your favourite songs that have never been revealed before. They work really nicely with my Denon Turntable/Ortofon 2m Red/Schiit Mani too, but I suppose it was only a matter of time that I would end up with a sub to add a little more warmth.
Needed to be compact and easily hidden in the one and only place the wife would allow me to have it, and as I already had a Cambridge Audio X201 in another room which I'm delighted with, I thought I'd add one to the KEFs, connected to the LFE of the Marantz Receiver.
I've stuck with the default low pass filter setting of 80hz on the Marantz, and also set the Sub at the same 80hz - it should probably be lower than that for the KEFs, but rightly or wrongly, thought some overlap would be best? Am I right in keeping both settings the same?
Despite the fact that the Sub is on the opposite side of the room from the KEFs, keeping the phase at 0 has worked really nicely to my ears - from my listening position the bass sounds as if it is coming directly from the speakers, so wasn't intending on changing the phase, or should I experiment further?
The final adjustment being the volume, I know that's just personal preference so will spend some time over the weekend tuning that to my liking, but other than that, is there any hints or tips that I should try?
First impressions are that I'm delighted, but keen to get it bang on.
As far as I’m aware, the human ear cannot define where very low bass is coming from, so positioning of a sub woofer in a room doesn’t really matter.
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Lots to unpack here.
I never thought I needed a sub at all and trying AV subs have often been sledgehammers, but having used a tight JL Audio 8" it definitely adds something.
In terms of set up, positioning is the single biggest bit too get wrong. If you move the sub around you'll get boom and dry spots. Some put the sub in the listening position and crawl on the floor to find the best points with a test track (lots on the streaming platforms) it sounds silly but many say it works.
Volume wise less is often more, and when I initially set mine it was all about hearing it, but over the coming days I eased it back bit by bit and it's more about the speakers feeling 'bigger' if that makes sense.
Roll off points are impossible to advise, it all depends on how the speakers roll away so maybe some trial and error there.
You're right, it's omnidirectional but it makes a huge difference in terms of boom. Point one into a corner a and it will sound much louder.Originally Posted by RobDad
This.
Don't overthink it.
Just locate it somewhere out of sight and get on with enjoying your music.
As long as the location doesnt make the sub sound obviously wrong by being boomy, then don't stress about it.
When I had my HiFi I liked to have fracitonal overlap from sub to mains but it's really a matter of taste.
You can buy cheap SPL meters to gauge volume. I tuned mine using the AVR setup but even so always preferred the sub volume fraction higher. As long as it sounds ok to you then don't fret too much.
Put the subwoofer at your listening position and play some bass heavy music or test tones, crawl around the edge of the room and when you get to a spot where it sounds best put the subwoofer there, further refine it with an Antimode to level the frequencys if you want a more even response and to tighten things up
http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/...ode-8033.shtml
Bass is the hardest part of a system to get right, I have 8 x 12" Subwoofers in my listening room which gets round this problem :)
Last edited by Vanguard; 7th July 2022 at 09:49.
Bass isn't directional, but sub woofers are more effective when placed in the corner of the room, but in fairness the term HIFI and subwoofer is a bit of a contradiction
Do you live in Royal Albert Hall ?
Its about quality, tightness of bass and evenness of response throughout the room rather than volume, obviously it can do that but I don't use it that way
I have some fairly high end stereo speakers that can go reasonably low on their own, but the difference in quality of music playback is substantial with the Subwoofers all turned on
EQ is taken care of by a Lyngdorf MP40 which blends them all together perfectly
Last edited by Vanguard; 7th July 2022 at 10:59.
Pictures or it never happened!
Subs in hifi used to make me roll my eyes until I tried a well set up solution. The difference is hard to pinpoint but very obvious.
I have full range speakers which I thought went low and fast etc. You can't noticeably hear the sub at all but when you turn it off the system sounds somehow flat. That's when you know you've got it right.
Many people use a pair of good quality sealed Subwoofers to improve the sound even with Stereo Hi-Fi speakers costing many tens of thousands per pair
An example of a set up below, it will look the same on the RH speaker with another Sub the same that side as well
In fact many of the Steinway Lyngdorf systems I've heard, which are fairly hard to beat, the whole system is built around the boundary woofer concept, Subwoofers do more than just the very low frequency, they are superb at underpinning the lower mid range too and will bring added realism to male vocals as well in fact
Last edited by Vanguard; 7th July 2022 at 11:32.
Totally agree, the sound is just so much richer/complete with some good quality sealed Subs in the Mix
That's one of my Subwoofers you can see in the corner, it's a Rel 212/SX, it's not alone!
Many people use a pair of good quality sealed Subwoofers to improve the sound even with Stereo Hi-Fi speakers costing many tens of thousands per pair
An example of a set up below, it will look the same on the RH speaker with another Sub the same that side as well
In fact many of the Steinway Lyngdorf systems I've heard, which are fairly hard to beat, the whole system is built around the boundary woofer concept, Subwoofers do more than just the very low frequency, they are superb at underpinning the lower mid range too and will bring added realism to male vocals as well in fact
It's funny, I have spent a lot of time in DCS's demo room listening to their Wilson audio's and have always walked away thinking that i prefer my Isobaric' s
If it’s connected to the LFE of your receiver, you don’t normally need to set the crossover on the sub as the receiver takes care of it. When I say don’t set it, I mean set it to its maximum.
As mentioned earlier, positioning can be vital. The fact we can’t easily identify the direction of low bass is irrelevant. Because of the long wavelength of low frequencies there can be places in your room where you can get nulls so the bass is reduced and other points where it’s boomy.
I’ve had a great SVS sub that could rattle the doors in their frames, but the only place I could put it caused a massive null in my listening position. There was practically no bass at all where I sat but if I moved a couple of feet either side it was massive.
As mentioned before, the ideal way to find the best location is to put the sub in the listening position and move around the room to find the point it sounds best, but that’s not always a place you could actually put it.
You can always play some test tones of various frequencies and use a sound level meter to check the response.
There’s also a great bit of free software called Room Equalisation Wizard (REW) that you can use but you’d need to buy a half decent microphone such as a UMIK-1 for that. The Antimode devices mentioned earlier are also good. They come with a microphone and you connect them to your sub and they play tones through the sub and automatically perform equalisation.
If you have so set it manually without the aid of mic, software, antimode etc you’ll just have to use trial and error with different crossovers and phase settings until you think it sounds right. In my experience this is extremely difficult to do and it’s quite unlikely you’ll actually achieve the best setting, but if you’re happy with the sound that’s all that matters.
Last edited by Cynar; 7th July 2022 at 12:34.
My Av processor came with Dirac live for room EQ, it's an amazing bit of kit, when you turn it off an then on it's night and day.
That's correct, you shouldn't hear it unless the music demands it.
You should also connect it using the high level output connected to the amplifiers speaker outputs (Nutrik connection) for stereo.
I use a REL TZero sub with my Falcon Acoustics Gold LS3/5A.
The sound is sublime.
👍
His sub doesn’t have high level inputs.
Which do you have? I have the Arcam AV20 and Dirac is amazing. I have 2 subs so bought the multi sub bass control licence too.
That’s taken the bass response to a whole new level.
I need to set my mates Arcam SR250 with the DIRAC room equaliser. He's using KEF LS/50 Meta... stunning sound!
Thanks all, some really useful comments
Position is something I haven't been worried about, as it is in the ideal place for my room, it's staying, and thankfully, first impressions are good with no discernible ill effects. Although it's on the opposite side of the room to the KEFs, it's also near the corner and the bass seems to be even, in my usual listening position, but also in other seating positions.
Really useful to know that the LFE connection means I can set the Sub crossover adjustment at maximum since my Marantz Receiver takes care of it.
Interesting to hear that the crossover can be down to personal preference. I know for the KEFs I should probably have it set around 50-60hz, but I kept it at the default 80hz to allow for a good overlap, so I may need to experiment more with that.
Has anyone found any advantage with the phase adjustment? It's incremental from 0 through 180 on this Sub, but as the sound and timing seems fine, I was probably going to leave it alone.
My aim, much like Pete-r, is so that nobody really knows the Sub is there, but just to compliment the speakers. I have turned the volume up beyond where I expect it to finish so that I can turn it down to my liking.
Thanks for all the suggestions on room correction software - I think I'll stick with manual tuning for now, but that may be a future solution as I naturally end up obsessing over it
A timely thread for me as I've just bought a subwoofer for my new (pretty inexpensive) cd player, amp (both Denon 600 series) and Dali Spektor 2s. As a recent returnee to a reasonable stereo system, I was really pleased with the clarity this setup provided, but as with watches, there's always the 'what now?' question... I considered getting some Dali Oberon 5s (small floorstanders) but decided to try just adding a subwoofer to see if that just boosted the bass without me ending up with an unwanted pair of Spektor 2s. This cheap Yamaha sub makes a huge difference with the volume set at around 30% - the clarity is still there but the sound is fuller. As for settings, there is only a volume control and and an image on Google suggested that the placement in the pic is commonplace. A definite improvement and will no doubt stick until the lure of Dali's own sub becomes irresistible...
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Lexicon MC 10. Both Harmon (Samsung)companies,
Allow yourself half a day to take all of the measurements, and if he lives near a road do it at a quiet time.
I use a Linn Akurate DSM so has space optimisation built in. I've always had issues in my room with a suspended wooden floor, patio doors, smooth plaster etc.
It changes things but I've found my best results without it but better placement. If you don't have much room is great, but can't replace better speaker placement and I use some wall panels etc.
I always set it to my tastes rather than "hifi"
Not really personal preference. I had my crossover set at the usual 80Hz, but Dirac showed that created quite a drop in the bass response around 80 to 100Hz. Reducing the crossover to 60Hz eliminated it.Thanks all, some really useful comments
Interesting to hear that the crossover can be down to personal preference. I know for the KEFs I should probably have it set around 50-60hz, but I kept it at the default 80hz to allow for a good overlap, so I may need to experiment more with that.
Last edited by Cynar; 7th July 2022 at 21:27.
Nice. I believe that was based on the Arcam AV860 and tweaked by Lexicon.
For use with hi-fi, you need to be careful in your choice of subwoofer - many end up choosing REL. I have a REL T/5i with Sonus Faber Guarneri Homage for main system and REL Tzero MKIII with Sonus Faber Concertinos in the study. Very pleased with the sound.
Rel have always been a class act in the subwoofer world, and probably suit hifi and AV. Funk subs are very much on the music side but super expensive. The JL Dominion suited me, 8" is faster than the 10" and without going all Stereophile they are great with music. The AV subs often thump along.
I'd love a Wilson Benesch Torus but they rarely come up and new are hard to justify.
SVS subs are amazing but probably a bit more suited to home cinema than music.
REL are great, but quite expensive.
BK Electronics subs probably offer the best performance/price ratio. They used to manufacture subs for REL and have been in the game for years. Because they manufacture and sell direct, they cut out the middleman, hence the bargain price.
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