Share of Freehold - who pays for what? HELP!

[tobywatches]

Hi all,

Looking for some advice.

I own a 1st/2nd floor flat with a share of freehold in an old Victorian terrace. There's one other flat in the building on the ground floor. The owner/occupier and I get along great.

We're having some work done to the outside and have been told there are some rotting window sills (they're the old wooden bay windows) in my flat that are beyond repair and will need to be replaced.

The other owner is saying that's solely my responsibility to pay for rather than paying the allotted percentages between us as set out in our lease. I cannot make head nor tail of what is whose responsibility in the lease so thought I'd ask the question here. This isn't a row at all - I'm perfectly happy to pay if that's my responsibility but I was under the impression anything affecting the outer structure of the building is a shared cost.

Any experts here who can shine a light?

Thanks,

Toby

[blackal]

Pretty sure the windows if they are solely on your property - are your responsibility.

Roof MAY be in proportion to the relative area of each flat, but you’d need to check the deeds for that apportionment.

The Deeds are everything, and in Scotland any deficiencies in old deeds - was addressed by the Tenements Act, but doubt that England has addressed that.

Re-read your post - you mention freehold, but then go on to mention ‘lease’. You don’t have both:

https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/ho...the-difference

[Scepticalist]

It's all about the deeds, but windows are unlikely to be shared and your best strategy is to find out exactly what you;re responsible for now and in the future before you go souring relationships by asking your neighbour for thousands of pounds.

[vulcangascompany]

I used to live in a 3 storey townhouse and we had these discussions all the time! We would of said windows were the owners cost - if in their flat. I had some repairs to sashes and I paid everything - the frontage was painted we divided that by 3. Front door was repaired (communal entrance) shared cost. Roof costs again shared. I would say if you exclusively and no-one else 'enjoy' something it's your expense.

[Neil.Ldn]

…impression anything affecting the outer structure of the building is a shared cost…

I don’t believe windows are considered to be structural. Either way, when I was in a similar situation we all paid for our own windows to be done.

Re-read your post - you mention freehold, but then go on to mention ‘lease’. You don’t have both:

You can have both - a share of the freehold of the whole property (which may be in the form of shares in a Ltd company which “owns” the freehold), and then ownership of the lease for the actual flat. Certainly that is how it worked with my old flat.

[wileeeeeey]

That’s on you, not sure why you think it might be shared.

[blackal]

I don’t believe windows are considered to be structural. Either way, when I was in a similar situation we all paid for our own windows to be done.



You can have both - a share of the freehold of the whole property (which may be in the form of shares in a Ltd company which “owns” the freehold), and then ownership of the lease for the actual flat. Certainly that is how it worked with my old flat.

Jesus! Your system in England & Wales is mental!

The OP will no doubt elaborate on the set-up.

[Christian]

Re-read your post - you mention freehold, but then go on to mention ‘lease’. You don’t have both

This is exactly how share of a freehold works. He will have share of the freehold and each flat will have a lease with a set term. A person who owns both a lease and a share in the freehold wears two different legal hats and the lease is not defunct...it is still the document which regulates the ownership of the flat.

OP - I also agree with the previous advice, I think it's more often the case than not that the windows belonging to each flat are the sole responsibility of the leaseholder of that flat.

[Christian]

Jesus! Your system in England & Wales is mental!

The OP will no doubt elaborate on the set-up.

Think of it this way...all the flat owners might collectively own the freehold, but if there was no lease that regulated the ownership of the flat each owner could effectively do what they wanted...the lease sets all those conditions that you have to abide by. eg. pet ownership, noise, putting up satellite dishes, knocking down walls, communal areas...etc

It will have a set term, but when the collective owners own the freehold, its a much simpler, less costly exercise to extend it out to 999 years. In my experience, the freeholders are shareholders of the company and elect directors (some of the flat owners), who then appoint a management company for the day-to-day running.

This is if it is all done properly. No doubt there exists some set-ups, normally converted houses that are badly set up in a legal sense which leads to all sorts of problems when things like the roof needs doing!

[blackal]

Think of it this way...all the flat owners might collectively own the freehold, but if there was no lease that regulated the ownership of the flat each owner could effectively do what they wanted...the lease sets all those conditions that you have to abide by. eg. pet ownership, noise, putting up satellite dishes, knocking down walls, communal areas...etc

It will have a set term, but when the collective owners own the freehold, its a much simpler, less costly exercise to extend it out to 999 years.

Usually the freeholders will form a company and have elected directors, who then appoint a management company.

Okay, in that respect, the freehold seems similar to Scottish system, in that there is an individual freehold, and a ‘collective’ freehold, but they are in perpetuity. The leasehold conditions you list - are similar to what we in Scotland would have in our individual deeds.

I’d be interested to know if any/many people in England actually look at what their burden is - in respect to the likes of roofs and solum.

I suspect that many get a nasty shock..............

[Christian]

Okay, in that respect, the freehold seems similar to Scottish system, in that there is an individual freehold, and a ‘collective’ freehold, but they are in perpetuity. The leasehold conditions you list - are similar to what we in Scotland would have in our individual deeds.

I’d be interested to know if any/many people in England actually look at what their burden is - in respect to the likes of roofs and solum.

I suspect that many get a nasty shock..............

Judging by the horror stories of people willingly buying properties where the ground rent doubles every 10 years, I bet there are a few out there that have no idea what their set-up is!

[yorkio]

This is if it is all done properly. No doubt there exists some set-ups, normally converted houses that are badly set up in a legal sense which leads to all sorts of problems when things like the roof needs doing!

My old place in North London was like that - I owned the top floor flat and when the roof sprang a leak, I had to stick a new one on!

On the plus side, I would have been allowed to have done a roof conversion and stuck an extra bedroom in the attic, if I could have been bothered.

[gerard]

It should all be in the lease. You may own a share of the FH but (on the assumption there are leases) each flat should be subject to a lease. The lease describes what is demised as the flat. That will either include or exclude windows. Glass is usually excluded.
The work will be paid subject to any % split as per the lease via the service charge. There is a need for consultation under s.20 of the LTA 1985 which limits any major works in excess of £250 per leaseholder. Unfortunately it is complicated, but the lease holds all the answers.

Sent from my moto g(8) plus using Tapatalk

[Captaincook]

In my experience windows are the responsibility of the owner of each property, unless specifically mentioned otherwise.

I have seen some blocks of flats where you need the approval from the managing agent for any repairs or changes simply to maintain consistency.

[tobywatches]

Thank you all for your replies.

I suspect the majority of you are right that I have to bear the cost of this. It certainly isn't an argument between me and the woman in the ground floor flat. We both have a great relationship and are both keen to ensure we do what's correct by each other. I'm very fortunate in that sense.

We have had work done on the roof in the past and that's been a shared cost 60-40 with me paying the majority as set out in the lease. Ditto the structural work being done at the moment. Windows just seemed less clear so this helps clarify.

Much appreciated all!

[blackal]

Thank you all for your replies.

I suspect the majority of you are right that I have to bear the cost of this. It certainly isn't an argument between me and the woman in the ground floor flat. We both have a great relationship and are both keen to ensure we do what's correct by each other. I'm very fortunate in that sense.

We have had work done on the roof in the past and that's been a shared cost 60-40 with me paying the majority as set out in the lease. Ditto the structural work being done at the moment. Windows just seemed less clear so this helps clarify.

Much appreciated all!

Like I mentioned - often the common costs like roofs - are a pro-rata burdon based on floor area. Looks like yours is such. The big thing, when discussing cost burdens is to avoid giving your neighbour the impression that you are trying it on. Sounds like you have succeeded in that.