Reply With QuoteYou’re acting like a ghoul. He’s no doubt seen plenty; do you want him to keep 5 bar gates?Originally Posted by Ivan Drago
I’d assume it is what he is seeing at the hospital he works at?
You’re acting like a ghoul. He’s no doubt seen plenty; do you want him to keep 5 bar gates?
If ever there was an example of ‘whataboutism’ this is it.
It may well be but, the statement isn’t backed up by official figures.
As I have said it isn’t backed up by official figures. Mis information is wrong no matter what “side” it comes from. As I have said the unvaccinated are a problem as a higher proportion of them are ending up in ICU. The “fact” is ICU are populated by both vaccinated and unvaccinated in roughly equal numbers.
Don't know whether that's true or not but the population as a whole isn't vaccinated and unvaccinated in equal numbers, therefore in itself that would indicate a much higher probability of ending up in ICU if unvaccinated.
Your "fact" might be correct but what is important (rather than the absolute numbers) is the percentage of vaccinated (out of all vaccinated) who are in ICU compared to the similar figure for the unvaccinated. The former is much smaller.
BTW, mis information is always wrong, the correct word is misinformation.
Helidoc actually said “ The vast majority of our ventilated patients are unvaccinated. Vaccines aren’t perfect, but they massively reduce your risk of death and critical illness.”.
He didn’t say that the vast majority of people in ICU are unvaccinated, there’s a difference, and it’s entirely consistent with the official narrative. Not everybody in ICU will need to be ventilated.
Clearly there are large numbers of vaccinated people in ICU, but sounds like they’ve got a much better chance of coming out again alive…
I would love to know the UK total covid deaths after 28 days,
Why is a covid death on day 29 any different than a covid death on day 28.
After 28 days will be 100%.
Plenty ? Don’t be daft.
As I’ve said earlier the amount of healthy 30 and below people dying is ridiculously small.
In America ( seem to be better as distinguishing age related deaths - uk seem to just bracket people as 60 and below ) the death rate for someone under 30 including people with health conditions is below .2%.
Take into account the US health care system etc and the number is again tiny.
Agree entirely the vax reduces chance of death dramatically thats clear to see from the stats.
What’s madness is this drive for everyone to be vaccinate. Why does an 18 year old have to be double vaccinated to go to the football ? Or to spain ?
Can an 18 year old spread the virus?
You have your answer.
So you think Helidoc is lying when he shares his own experience of the ICU he works at?
I don’t recall him making a statement on the national situation which I am sure varies across the country depending on regional vaccination rates and infection rates.
You are just making yourself look even more foolish than usual.
This was data from before Omicron hit but you can expect a similar spread!
In German, but I assume most people can figure out which is which but then again maybe I shouldn’t! Geimpft means Vaccinated and Ungeimpft means unvaccinated. Just shows we get the same stupid questions from fools over here as well! It’s all about understanding risk and which tools to use to understand this risk in reality. This has been discussed countless times but people still have very poor understanding of how to read and understand risk statistics. A shocking level of innumeracy displayed by many on this Forum
Last edited by paw3001; 4th January 2022 at 11:47.
To complete dkpw's answer, because Spain demands it from third country citizens. It's called sovereignty.
Feel free to choose a different travel destination.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
And who can forget the news reports showing hospital staff complaining about lack of PPE back in the early days - to be followed with the 'official' statement from the government stating that "There is no shortage of PPE".
Counting gloves as two items of PPE in public addresses. Classic.
I won’t get into name calling. I didn’t say he was lying, I said that wasn’t backed up by official figures. OK he was relating to his hospital- as the data is public he could let us know exactly what it is.So you think Helidoc is lying when he shares his own experience of the ICU he works at?
I don’t recall him making a statement on the national situation which I am sure varies across the country depending on regional vaccination rates and infection rates.
You are just making yourself look even more foolish than usual.
This was data from before Omicron hit but you can expect a similar spread!
In German, but I assume most people can figure out which is which but then again maybe I shouldn’t! Geimpft means Vaccinated and Ungeimpft means unvaccinated. Just shows we get the same stupid questions from fools over here as well! It’s all about understanding risk and which tools to use to understand this risk in reality. This has been discussed countless times but people still have very poor understanding of how to read and understand risk statistics. A shocking level of innumeracy displayed by many on this Forum
Your pictures show exactly what I said in an earlier post, you are far more likely to end up in hospital, end up in ICU and end up on ventilation if you are unvaccinated. But…there are not more unvaccinated people in ICU (and on ventilation) than vaccinated. It is about 50/50.
I’m genuinely uncertain what you’re after here, or what you think you’ll accomplish.
Is it an apology from helidoc? I’m properly confused.
I did point out that proportionately an unvaccinated person is far more likely to end up in ICU.
Thanks for the spelling lesson.
What I always find it interesting in these debates - be it brexit, covid, isms/ists/phobic, conspiracy et al - is there is always one side throwing insults and spluttering with anger and righteous indignation.
Nothing to be confused about. I was seeking clarification of a point made that I didn’t think was correct.
I am not sure individual hospital data is public.
I have said before that if 100% of the population was jabbed, 100% of those in ICU would have been vaccinated. Comparing percentages is not valid if your samples sizes are different. This is why paw3001's post above presents the data above.
Each hospital covers a geographical area that is not representative of the UK population. As such, individual hospitals will have figures that may be at odds from the national averages. A hospital from an ageing area will have a significantly higher percentage of vaccinated people in ICU simply because this part of the population is more likely to be vaccinated, but also more vulnerable.
Helidoc works at the coal face. He sees both old and young when they get to A&E. And unfortunately he sees a lot of them die.
I am sure it's significantly more depressing and infuriating when it's a 30 yo who felt immortal and did not get vaccinated. But it also uses resources that other patients need.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Well if you know that, posting your "fact" is rather dis ingenuous disingenuous.
An 18 year old vaccinated person can also spread and catch the virus.
Hence why 90% of the uk population has been vaccinated and the covid levels are at record highs.
And in your opinion how would it look if there hadn’t been any vaccinations?
Do you think they’d be even higher if nobody was vaccinated?
It might be 50/50 actually in ICU, but helidoc was making the point about the vaccine status of those who are intubated.
There is a difference.
Clarification of a point/claim not made…that’s an interesting response and no wonder people are confused with what you say.
Following your own reasoning, I have observed and called out generalised behaviour from a certain group of people as I see it but please show me where I have have specifically called you a name in the post you responded to. If you have self identified I don’t see that as my issue!
However, I am glad to see that some learning has taken place as we did discuss the proportional issue well before Christmas and I shared the same image as above. Glad to see that helped you.
My Mrs mirrors what helidoc said at her hospital because of staff COVID sickness they are running at dangerous staff to patient numbers and she has been kicked out of her office so COVID patients can be put in because they are totally overwhelmed by the numbers now coming in
Because no doubt it is because these people are repeating points and factual information that have been shared, explained and reexplained a hundred times. These people are still coming out with inane statements as they refuse to accept the facts and basic science, it then becomes wearisome and frustrating.
Their misinformation direct harms society and therefore being apathetic and accepting such behaviour and misinformation enables this growing acceptance of lies and becomes equally dangerous to our society.
This meme may demonstrate better how some of us may now feel on the COVID threads!
Last edited by paw3001; 4th January 2022 at 15:02.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59865108
"We may well need to have boosters for the vulnerable in the population but I think it's highly unlikely that we'll have programmes going forwards regularly of boosting everyone over the age of 12," he added.
Prof Pollard said those who would need further boosters were likely to be older adults or those with health conditions."
Exactly, protect the vulnerable and stop injecting healthy humans with a perfectly fine immune system with a vaccine they don't need...
And how do you know exactly that each individual doesn’t require the vaccine? It’s been proven that objectively healthy people can die from Covid.
The BBC professor has told me?
It's also proven that objectively over 90% of people recover fine from covid?
I think it would be more or less the same if the 50 and under age bracket were not vaccinated.
I tested positive last Tuesday after a couple of days (Sunday and Monday) sore throat and cough just done my second clear so good to go. My wife as been with me the whole time, no isolation and she as tested every day and remained clear. The exact same happened in my daughters house son in law and grandson both positive she was clear the whole time.
PS All jabbed with booster, all be it my son in law only had his booster two days before positive test and he did suffer a bit. Grandson only 9 so no jab but no symptoms.
Last edited by hilly10; 4th January 2022 at 14:41.
Or put another way, 10% don't? Ten percent of a big number is...a lot!
So in your opinion the vaccine doesn’t reduce any transmissions in people aged 50 or under?
Don’t quit your day job. Unless it’s in medicine.
I’m saying it’s doesn’t matter if you’re healthy and under 50 if you’re vaxed or not. Your chances of death are miniscule.
I don’t get the issue here, I’m not anti vax or a conspiracy theorist.
I just believe everyone that’s healthy under 50 does not need to be jabbed.
Well that’s your belief but it is wrong factually but don’t worry about that. Whilst the young are at less risk they are not at no risk and this risk of COVID is still higher than suffering a very serious life threatening adverse event from a vaccine.
Not sure why you can’t understand that!
90% of a big number is even bigger....
How do you know?? The vaccine has apparently only been around 2 years and isn't fully tested.. why can't you understand there is risks associated with the vaccine and you have no crystal ball to tell you that everyone will be fine in the future from the vaccines effects?
It's very relative. It depends on how many of your loved ones end up in the 10%
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
It's very relative to the risk the vaccine poses by your same logic, it depends how many of you loved ones end up with issues arriving from the vaccine when infact they really didn't need it in the first place.
Should we just ignore the proven benefits around reduced transmission and reduced severity of any breakthrough infections now then even in the under 50s?
I’ve lived under the same roof as two people with PCR confirmed Covid cases now, and neither myself nor my wife went on to develop the disease.
Was that the vaccines or something else?
I know of more people who have died than have had issues with the vaccine.
I think Paw3001 is in a better position to understand this compared to most by virtue of his profession. The mechanism by which the vaccines work is well understood and on that basis the longer term safety is predictable. If you don`t understand the science you'll have to take this at face value but some folks aren`t prepared to do this. This nebulous concept of future adverse effects seems to be the cornerstone of the anti-vaxxers beliefs and I think you have to be a certain type of person to subscribe to this idea.
As I said earlier, there's no point arguing which such folks, they won't change their minds and sadly it has cost some people their life.
Last edited by walkerwek1958; 4th January 2022 at 17:10.
If you truly think that these vaccines are still ‘experimental’ and that after over 9.5 billion doses that we don’t have a very good understanding of the what are the benefits of the vaccines, what are their risks and the science of their methodology then you haven’t been paying attention to the right sources. These are the most studied, scrutinised, with the most available real world data vaccines ever developed by humans. Fact!
Just because you are unwilling to accept, can’t understand or are just plain irrational regarding the science of vaccination and these particular molecules means that you will always remain susceptible to evil others to help them spread misguided, incorrect garbage. You have yet to offer up one decent shred of real information in this thread rather than just repeating rubbish from debunked conspiracy theorists. I would not be surprised to hear that you are a supportor of QAnon, Piers Corbyn or David Icke.
I am no longer willing to try and educate you on the science of vaccination and how unlikely vaccines are in causing long term adverse events. I have done that too many times with referenced sources and data which you will just ignore because for you the truth is just not as interesting as your make believe fairy stories!
You sir, are naive, easily fooled and a sucker for well wrapped garbage!
Last edited by paw3001; 4th January 2022 at 18:50.
Or possibly just trolling for the reaction. That said, although it's sometimes hard to believe that folk can be so ignorant you only have to look at events across the water a year ago for evidence that many will believe any old nonsense spread on social media and to hell with rationality and science.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Spain is in the EU, which doesn't allow their member states to take any sovereign decisions.
Any fule kno that.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
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