Reply With QuoteWhy use a Miyota movement? The Chinese 2824 should be fine and possibly cheaper too.
Eddie,
Now that the newer PRS-10Q has been "on the market" for a while. Is there still a chance for a auto (Miyota?) powered version of the PRS-10? Has the chance of a auto version increased or decreased?
HAGWE,
/joakim
Why use a Miyota movement? The Chinese 2824 should be fine and possibly cheaper too.
It may require a different case.
I'd happily go with the Miyota, it's a straight drop-in for the case.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
...and this means? :error: :?:Originally Posted by swanbourne
I'm getting ready for the standard Eddie answer. :)
/joakim
A jerky seconds hand that doesn't move smoothly, because it's an indirect drive solution. :(...and this means? :error: :?:
Wouldn't they have to move the stem hole? The stem on the Miyota is further from the dial than on the the Ronda.
Actually, all indirect seconds do not suffer from this problem. If the tension of the second hand pinion drag spring is correct, it will not flutter. JLC and Patek use it in some of their movements and few complain. I suspect the lack of good QA at Miyota is more to blame than the design.A jerky seconds hand that doesn't move smoothly, because it's an indirect drive solution. :(...and this means? :error: :?:
Ah, ok. Well, whatever the reason, the jerky movement of the seconds hands in Miyota movements was enough for me to sell a watch with one mounted. Couldn't stand it, every time I looked at it I winced.
I've got a Miyota ZEX and have never had any problems with the second sweep. In fact the miyota has proved to be an incredibly reliable and robust movement and keeps fantastic time. I would think it could be a good candidate for the PRS-10.
I can get some NOS German PUW movements.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Would be intresting!
/joakim
That would be very interesting in a less british looking watch. Something a bit more Bauhaus maybe.
That would be interesting, depending on the caliber. PUW movements were in some ways superior to the run-of-the-mill ETAs.
That would most definitely be interesting, in the current PRS-10 case. If its going to be a handwound Id say, go for an unscrewed crown and put me down for one.
I take it the movements will be oiled and timed, etc.
john
THIN is the new BLACK
It would be commercial suicide to use them if they weren't John. :wink:That would most definitely be interesting, in the current PRS-10 case. If its going to be a handwound Id say, go for an unscrewed crown and put me down for one.
I take it the movements will be oiled and timed, etc.
john
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Much like the similarly priced IWC Ingenieur. :roll: :wink:
Cheers,
Martin ("Crusader")
I recognize that I'm not the Greatest WIS among us and that there are a great many things about watches that I have yet to learn. The pros and cons of indirect drive seconds hands might be one of them. I just know that I had a popular diver which had a Miyota 8215 movement with indirect drive seconds hand and that it never moved smoothly around the dial. According to the internet forums at the time, this was primarily due to the fact that it was indirect drive design solution. Now, I'll admit, it might have to do with the quality control of that watch manufacturer, it might have to do with that particular movement design, or it might have to do with the fact that it was indirect drive seconds... I just know that EVERY time I looked at the watch and saw that seconds hand jerk its way around the dial I almost screamed.Much like the similarly priced IWC Ingenieur. :roll: :wink:
Simple bottom line: I would love an automatic PRS-10 and quite frankly, I couldn't really care less what movement sits inside it, provided it works, is reliable, and has a SMOOTH seconds hand, i.e., in the same way that an ETA 2824 is smooth. Which I suppose is to say that it takes even steps and perfectly regular intervals, since technically you could argue that the ETA 2824 isn't smooth either, but you get my point.
OK. I'll go take my meds now. :confused2: :happy3: :wink:
EDIT: ...or I could provide some useful links on the matter:
http://www.timezone.com/library/workbench/workbench0002
http://www.timezone.com/library/horo...70098360080701
http://www.17jewel.com/two.html
http://forums.timezone.com/index.php...=2731183&rid=0
My remark was to some extent tongue-in-cheek. Until the indirect-second drive of the Ingenieur, direct seconds were considered superior. Once you sink all that money into an Ingenieur, however, people do find reasons to say indirect and direct seconds are on par. :)
Cheers,
Martin ("Crusader")
Yeah, no worries, I did see the Smileys in your post. But I figured since I had my hobby horse out, I might as well go for a ride :D
Would definitely buy one!!! :)
I wont be filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, I am not a number, I am a free man, my life is my own!!!
Be seeing you
Toodle pip
Griff.
I'd be tempted by an auto PRS-10. Bought a quartz for my wife and have been really impressed by it (but prefer my quartz digital).
Dave E
Skating away on the thin ice of a new day
Could anybody please put up some information on the "German PUW" movements? I'm unaware of them and any technological pros and cons they might have in comparison to the Miyota and ETA movements also being considered for the mechanical version of the PRS-10.
Also, if these are obscure and no longer made, would that be a problem sourcing parts in the future?
for a second I read "German POW" movements :? :lol: :lol:
I'm a great fan of the PUW movements, as a matter of fact I regard the 15xx and 16xx automatics as some of the best auto movements ever made. Not as sophisticated as the IWC Pellaton or the JLC 889, but incredibly robust and with some clever design features. I've collected quite a lot of literature on these, what would you like to know?
Could anybody please put up some information on the "German PUW" movements? I'm unaware of them and any technological pros and cons they might have in comparison to the Miyota and ETA movements also being considered for the mechanical version of the PRS-10.
Also, if these are obscure and no longer made, would that be a problem sourcing parts in the future?
Compared to the ETA's they are more robust, and modularly designed. This means that they on the one hand are much thicker, but can be safely handwound as the underlying winding mechanism is identical to the handwound version (cal. 3xx to 6xx). Winding is extremely smooth and creamy. The 16xx and 6xx have the best quick-set and quick-change mechanism I have ever seen, it can swallow just about any abuse thrown at it. Automatic winding is less efficient than on an ETA, as the rotor is not suspended in ball-bearings.
As for spare parts, my watchmaker (Rainer Nienaber) has a whole load of NOS parts. He also did a complete rebuild of one of them (the last generation 1663) and added hack seconds, more functional jewels, a different rotor and refinished the whole movement.
Eddie, which movement are you considering using? I'm assuming something from the 5xx-15xx range. A movement I'd really like to see in a modern watch is the 60/61, a chronometer movement. Or the 500, which still has some Glashuette heritage. I have one of the latter as well and it´s a very nice movement indeed.
Bernard
What's wrong with the Ronda. Eddie's PRS-10 is my only quartz watch and although quartz is not my preferred movement of choice, I think it's excellent in this model - reliable and it keeps great time.
David
Bernard, Thank you very much for the information on the PUW movements. They must be good ones to draw your enthusiasm like that.
One thing you mentioned was that the rotors are mounted on plain bearings as opposed to the ball bearing rotor mounts that ETA uses in it's movements. Maybe I'm wrong, but I wouldn't think that would be much of a problem as I believe I recently read somewhere on the Forum that Rolex uses plain bearings in it's own in-house movements.
One thing to ask though is when did PUW stop manufacturing movements and what happened to them? Was the decline in mechanical movement popularity after quartz hit the market in the 1970's in some way responsible for PUW ceasing production?
Thanks Again
The more weight you have out side the diameter pivot the more efficient the winding will be. If you look and an ETA 2892, you will see a large mass inside the bearing race than does not move, this is essentially wasted mass. Older movements, like the PUWs have a steel post approximately 1.50 mm in diameter and a brass bearing in the oscillating mass.
The reason ETA went with such large ball bearing was the improved life without oiling in exchange for the loss if winding efficiency. Probably, a good exchange.
Pforzheimer Uhrenwerke was one of the many movement manufacturers that made run-of-the-mill movements, like AS, ETA, Durowe, and FHF. I don't think they were completely killed off in the eighties by the quartz revolution, but I don't think they make movements any more.
The factory in Pforzheim was bought over by SMH, the predecessors to Swatch, I believe in 1977. They continued production for a while, including the electromechanical movement which was seen as the most advanced at the time. Then SMH considered the PUW movements to be in-house competition for their ETA and ESA movements, and changed production in Pforzheim into parts manufacture for the Swiss movements. The factory still exists today. I always wondered what would have become of the PUW movements if they had been allowed to develop further, the last generation was on a par or better than comparative offers from Switzerland and IMHO better than what was produced in the GDR at the time. The latter is a bit ironic as the founder of PUW came from Glashuette and the first movement (PUW 500) produced at the factory was very close to a Glashuette movement (UROFA 58) in design....The more weight you have out side the diameter pivot the more efficient the winding will be. If you look and an ETA 2892, you will see a large mass inside the bearing race than does not move, this is essentially wasted mass. Older movements, like the PUWs have a steel post approximately 1.50 mm in diameter and a brass bearing in the oscillating mass.
The reason ETA went with such large ball bearing was the improved life without oiling in exchange for the loss if winding efficiency. Probably, a good exchange.
Agreed, but as the PUW automatics wind bi-directionally and thus have quite some resistance to overcome, they wind far less efficiently than ETAs. I really have to hand-wind my PUWs now and then, this is thankfully unproblematic.
Pforzheimer Uhrenwerke was one of the many movement manufacturers that made run-of-the-mill movements, like AS, ETA, Durowe, and FHF. I don't think they were completely killed off in the eighties by the quartz revolution, but I don't think they make movements any more.
This is from memory, so I apologise in advance for any mistakes. I'll get back on this when I have access to my books again.
Bernard
Eddie... Bauhaus... Not seeing it, but would love to...That would be very interesting in a less british looking watch. Something a bit more Bauhaus maybe.
Something like the Stowa Antea, maybe?
No. :evil:
john
THIN is the new BLACK
What he said!No. :evil:
john
Enough other people doing that one, why should Eddie join in?
Dave E
Skating away on the thin ice of a new day
I don't particularly like the stowa antea either.What he said!No. :evil:
john
Enough other people doing that one, why should Eddie join in?
Blimey. What's not to like about the Antea?
I like the Antea, I'm just not convinced there's anything new/extra that Eddie could bring to that particular table.
Dave E
Skating away on the thin ice of a new day
PUW movement would be cool and doesn't have to be a bauhaus design.
The PUW movements available are the 13XX series and a few 15XX and 16XX.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
How about this?
Apparently one of the first Portugieser from the late 30s?
(in the new IWC-"book/catalog", there is a bigger version of this picture,
can scan it tomorrow)
It is beautiful and they are no more in production. :twisted:
Edit: Found another picture on the IWC-website:
courtesy of IWC
Cheerio, Frank
Great! The main difference between the generations is in the quick-set date mechanism (besides a different bridge layout in the 16xx), but this would only be relevant if you actually use the date. On the 1561 you change the date by pressing the crown, not very practical IMHO.
I'd love to see one of these in a centre-second marine chronometer-inspired watch... something like the new centre-seconds Dornblueth or a less baroque Breguet Marine
But then again, that's how my Nienaber came about, as an hommage to German marine chronometers.
Bernard
Yummie! But none of the movements mentioned have subsidiary seconds...How about this?
Apparently one of the first Portugieser from the late 30s?
(in the new IWC-"book/catalog", there is a bigger version of this picture,
can scan it tomorrow)
It is beautiful and they are no more in production. :twisted:
Edit: Found another picture on the IWC-website:
courtesy of IWC
Cheerio, Frank
Bernard
Hm, bloody hell (there you go, I am just a Design-WIS)! Anyway, opened a
new thread here about it, please support it if you like ;)
Cheerio, Frank
You wouldnt like the Damasko DC56/7 then...Ah, ok. Well, whatever the reason, the jerky movement of the seconds hands in Miyota movements was enough for me to sell a watch with one mounted. Couldn't stand it, every time I looked at it I winced.
The chrono seconds hand was so jerky as to be laughable, especially in such a (supposedly) technically advanced watch... :roll:
OK, see you over there then :wave:Hm, bloody hell (there you go, I am just a Design-WIS)! Anyway, opened a
new thread here about it, please support it if you like ;)
Cheerio, Frank
Bernard
Is there such an animal? :shock:......
I'd love to see one of these in a centre-second marine chronometer-inspired watch... something like the new centre-seconds Dornblueth or a less baroque Breguet Marine
But then again, that's how my Nienaber came about, as an hommage to German marine chronometers.
Bernard
john
THIN is the new BLACK
Do you mean the Nienaber, or German marine chronometers? :mrgreen:Is there such an animal? :shock:......
I'd love to see one of these in a centre-second marine chronometer-inspired watch... something like the new centre-seconds Dornblueth or a less baroque Breguet Marine
But then again, that's how my Nienaber came about, as an hommage to German marine chronometers.
Bernard
john
Check out:
http://www.nienaber-uhren.de
Bernard
Sorry, I missed the red highlighting (reading on my PDA) on my first reading. Yes, there is a centre-sec DD indeed. They presented it at Basel:Do you mean the Nienaber, or German marine chronometers? :mrgreen:Is there such an animal? :shock:......
I'd love to see one of these in a centre-second marine chronometer-inspired watch... something like the new centre-seconds Dornblueth or a less baroque Breguet Marine
But then again, that's how my Nienaber came about, as an hommage to German marine chronometers.
Bernard
john
Check out:
http://www.nienaber-uhren.de
Bernard
http://www.dornblueth.com/flash.php?p=n ... tralsecond
I'm in love.... :drunken:
Bernard
Oh my that is fantastic :shock: :shock: :shock:
I'm not as think as you drunk I am.
You're not wrong :love4:
I'd love something like that!You're not wrong :love4:
There are a couple more marine chronometer hommages with centre seconds:
The Breguet Marine Big Date
I saw one in the flesh the other day, very nice but a little bit overdone, IMHO. Don't like the wave-shaped crown guards, for instance.
A German interpretation is the one I have, which has a PUW movement:
The Rainer Nienaber LE 2002
The case shape also tries to reproduce the case shape of the marine chronometers.
I know this has small seconds, but I also love this:
The RGM/EOT Model 22
Does anyone know any others?
Thanks,
Bernard
Posting Permissions
