Reply With QuoteInteresting….
https://www.businessinsider.com/auto...3-10?r=US&IR=T
I clocked it as completely fake, but took it for the entertainment value it provided. Just like fictional stuff on TV.Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers
Interesting….
https://www.businessinsider.com/auto...3-10?r=US&IR=T
A very US view of the global picture, they’ve always gone their own way vehicle wise, ie pick ups.
Their pre-scaling back targets didn’t look particularly ambitious either, compared to even some sceptical Euro based car makers.
I think it’s a tough/brutal market for any manufacturer selling any motor vehicle at the moment, is anybody paying list price for any car nowadays?
I am actually looking to change my car ATM. Are you (or any other kind forum member) able to point me to a dealer where I can get a discount on a new
Diesel Merc GLC Coupe?
Merc are now operating on an agency basis (as are Volvo) and both are quick to say "the price is the price".
Last edited by uptheaddicks; 27th October 2023 at 14:59. Reason: typo
The Americans are used to cheap "gasoline" I had a quick check and it seem a US gallon is around 3.60 USD so hardly surprising that they're not desperate to get into an EV from a financial perspective. However I believe there are tax rebates on the purchase of new EVs
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Yes, and like most things US, I guess it will vary hugely state to state.
I’d be up for a Rivian if I lived stateside!
Just had my first itemised bill since I have had my EV and transferred to the E.ON Next Drive.
Pre-EV we previously averaged 100 kWh per month. Now we average 450 kWh per month.
Previously 80% of our leccy was used in the day, now it is 32%.
We get 7 hours per night every night for 9.5p/kWh. I charge on a granny cable so the duration is more important, hence I didn’t go down the Octopus route.
It s costing around £23 per month for the 750 miles we drive on average. In our previous diesel car that would have cost us over £160.
Plus the salary sacrifice to pay for the car makes it much cheaper than leading an ICE car.
Absolute no brainer for me, even give. The EV limitations.
Depreciation?? or is it on a PCP or Lease like most EV’s
Just completed my first 5000 miles in my used Model 3 Performance (bought at three years old; so still a years warranty, and paid almost half its original list price).
1362 kwh total used.
On Intelligent Octopus so 0.075ppkwh = £102.15.
However.......... have been putting the washer and dishwasher on at night on the cheap tarrif so the bills haven't actually increased.
My old car averaged 27mpg in the 3 years I had it.
So that 5000 would have cost £1304
(according to https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/costs/fu...Id=564&Mpg=27# )
That is bonkers.
So in three months the savings have covered the home charger and increased insurance.
For a car that does 0 - 60 in 3.2seconds (and I swear it wheelied the other day!), that thrills the kids and scares the in laws......... and drives itself on boring motorways is just preposterous. Handles decently too.
Off to Devon from the West Midlands tomorrow............. quick charge at Exeter where there are apparently 32 stalls, and jobs a good un.
PS
Doh. Just remembered I charged twice briefly at superchargers........ So gotta factor in another £20!
Enjoying the golden age of cheap EV charging for now. Once everyone is in them (selfishly loving the push back to 2035!) then we will have to be taxed accordingly........
Is it correct to assume your EV is using 350kw per month then to give you 750 miles ???
Feels slight inefficient. But it has been cold I guess.
Salary sacrifice. Three years lease at 8k miles per year. Gross is £609 pcm, but net (what actually comes out of my salary) is around £350 pcm, or something like that.
I chuck the keys back after 3 years with no additional costs.
Yep, it is not particularly efficient, but who cares when you a paying 9.5p/kWh!
Range is 250 miles which is enough for me 95% of the year.
Ive got 77kw of useable battery and i get around 315 miles from a charge. Winter months back in Feb was around 280. Over the whole 8 months of ownership which is winter and summer ive achieved an average of just over 4 miles per KW.
Mine would use nowhere near 350kw to do 750 miles, however thats an ID5- think NTL has a Volvo.
My numbers must include the dishwasher and washing machine coming on overnight, because it does appear a little low on reflection.
In the summer I seem to be getting around 230 miles for 64 kWh useable if I drive around 65 mph on the motorway or if I am careful around town.
Generally though, I love driving the go kart with a bit more enthusiasm.
Despite the tyre wall height being much greater than the kerb height outside our house, the missus has managed to take out a chunk of the diamond cut alloys.
It was only ever going to be a matter of time. That time turned out to be not very long.
Last edited by noTAGlove; 28th October 2023 at 22:13.
Well I’m going to hold my hands up having been very dismissive of EV’s and the infrastructure in general for charging.
My good friend was in Aberdeen the same time as me yesterday and gave me a lift home to Teesside in his Tesla. I was expecting to have to stop halfway down and stop for an hour whilst we charged up.
Well I never realised how good the Tesla network is with regards to charging and how little time you actually need to spend charging to get to destinations.
So basically we left Aberdeen with 50% battery and got down to Dundee where we topped up for about 8 mins to give him enough of a charge to get to Edinburgh where we planned to stop and grab some food and then stop at the Tesla chargers round the corner whilst we had a coffee and food.
I did not realise that you can put destinations in and then it works out how much charge you need to get there. In all we stopped three times, on the second and third tim it was for a quick bite and a quick coffee stop, I’m talking 10-15 mins stops each time which tbh allows you the time to stretch the legs.
Plenty of spaces at the Tesla stops (it was well after rush hour tbf) and I would like to see how it compares during the day with available spaces.
And then finally the quietness and performance of the car is again something else, not keen on the self driving as I was nervous but here I am and I’m going to hold my hands up and say I was that impressed that I may next year consider looking at one, especially if our work rolls out the EV green car scheme.
Yes, Tesla is still the ‘gold standard’ with regard to charger infrastructure/availability and integration with the cars navigation system. As well as routing via the SuC sites on long journeys and planning minimum charge times, it also will actively try and avoid busy sites if possible.
That said, any EV with a decent size battery and 100kW+ charging capability is very viable vehicle these days. Non-Tesla hubs are springing up all the time, including ones at Tesla scale (10+ rapid units) and it really is transforming the ease with which you can cover long distances away from home charging.
We are lucky enough to have a Tesla and an ID.4, and I regularly drive either of them north from Lincs to Scotland (500 miles each way) and there is very little in it journey time wise now.
I dont think i have commented on this thread but here goes.
My background is i have various petrol cars and still run a mini countryman diesel for the family hack with the petrol cars being a focus rs heritage edition ( orange affair ) a focus rs mk 1 and a cortina m2 1600e .
I opted for a kia e niro 4 plus on a 21 plate due to range ( 280 ish ) and did 25k in that in the first year .
I found charging a bit iffy out there and used the tesco charging ( it was free ) and charged at work again free plus i charged / topped up at home with a granny charger and still do . I dont bother with the night time tariffs as her indoors works from home .
I never went ddown the solar route as the initial charge would take some time to pay itself back given what i pay for chrging overall
I changed last year to the new kia niro e which cureently sits at 26k miles in its first year.
Tesco charging has stopped as its expensive now its not free but on a plus side its stopped all the cheeky chappies that left their cars there all day doing so .
This year i have been charging mosty at work and ocassionally we have used the car to power heavy domestic stuff over night off the three pin plugs in the car ( there are 2 )
My overall experience is of bitter hostility from ill informed petrol heads , the cars have been superb and faultless with all the bells and whistles i need and more . The wife loves the car too. Charging away from home on public chargers is very expensive and hit and miss so i try to avoid thet where ever possible and long runs are doable quite easily if i plan one coffee break on a rapid charger
I expect to run this one into the ground with overall costs being 75% cheaper than using a diesel .
I am still going to run a diesel as the family hack and will replace it with a diesel so far
I think the main (and insurmountable?) problem with a wholesale change towards EVs is that unlike most on here that have drives/quiet roads double garages etc the majority of homes have cars parked both sides of narrow roads. How are they going to charge their vehicles (if they can afford them in the first place))
Charging points at most places where cars park, including at the roadside.I think the main (and insurmountable?) problem with a wholesale change towards EVs is that unlike most on here that have drives/quiet roads double garages etc the majority of homes have cars parked both sides of narrow roads. How are they going to charge their vehicles (if they can afford them in the first place))
And with regards to pricing, people who can’t afford new ICE now will not be able to afford new EVs so will buy cheaper second hand ones in exactly the same way as now.
This isn’t the first time somebody has made that comment, but it’s not an insurmountable issue, if the UK is serious about it.I think the main (and insurmountable?) problem with a wholesale change towards EVs is that unlike most on here that have drives/quiet roads double garages etc the majority of homes have cars parked both sides of narrow roads. How are they going to charge their vehicles (if they can afford them in the first place))
Firstly, 60-70% of homes in the UK do, or could have, off street parking. Of those that don’t, some of them won’t be car owners anyway.
Just like either side of the street photo you’ve posted, most cars are parked up somewhere for up to 23 hours a day, and that’s where to target the charging provision with kerbside public charging etc. That along with workplace charging and chargers at supermarkets and retail and leisure parks so that you can charge whilst you’re doing something else will go a massive way towards solving the issue.
It’s a chicken and egg shuffle, more EVs will require more charging provision of all sorts, but that increasing market will bring solutions.
Whether we will make the switch successfully, hard to say and time will tell, this is a decades long transition and was never meant to be overnight anyway.
Easy. Make room for kerbside chargers by removing the kerbside fuel pumps.I think the main (and insurmountable?) problem with a wholesale change towards EVs is that unlike most on here that have drives/quiet roads double garages etc the majority of homes have cars parked both sides of narrow roads. How are they going to charge their vehicles (if they can afford them in the first place))
But seriously - a lot of cars would probably only need charging once a week or so, and most are likely to end up at, near, or pass, a rapid charger (the latter once infrastructure becomes better developed).
I don’t think anyone imagines for a second that such a street would instantly switch, en-masse, to EV’s. Infrastructure and technology needs to develop in lock step with adoption.
"Bite my shiny metal ass."
- Bender Bending Rodríguez
Porsche offering decent deals on the Taycan including a £5k dealer contribution.
If it was half price you would still have a risk of losing your shirt.
really? residuals are really strong on them here in ireland, do they depreciate a lot in blighty?
Your diesel car at £160 for 750 miles is very thirsty. Covered 215 miles over the weekend X3 2.0d permanent 4x4 cost £29.76
Not really, the cheapest 2020 models on Autotrader are from around £55k, new ones from £100k.
In comparison, the Panamera starts around £50k for similar 2020 cars and new from a little under £100k.
The depreciation to date seems similar but who knows what the future holds.
That's an average of about 55mpg? You have the lightest of right feet.
Cheapest available here showing at 76k (euro) its a 4s, unusually electric cars here are a similar price to the UK due to tax changes, normally we pay a lot more (ICE cars are generally 20-30% more expensive)
https://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/por...journey=Search
Different market obviously but UK depreciation on EVs appears to be fairly comparable to ICE.
That said, EVs seem to have depreciated more heavily than ICE in recent months but only down to similar price levels as equivalent ICE.
It was a trip to Harrogate then on to Whitby mixed roads only 60% motorway’s along with 6.2 miles downhill coasting.
Interesting. Who knows what the future holds.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/10/b...rice-cost.html
Last edited by Passenger; 2nd November 2023 at 13:00.
I got 14% off a new order in September. Due here later this month as caught it just before spec lock.
Worst thing is the value of my 23 month old velar has plummeted 8 grand since I ordered (6 weeks ago) which is a potential bloody spanner. Wonder if I can talk them into the extra finance contribution....
I test drove a 4S saloon in September and did a motorway quote as a matter of interest. RRP was £115,000 ish with options. October 2022 car. Motorway quote was just over £60k. Scary
Dealers seem to be scared of EVs at the moment and are offering peanuts for them. They’re not selling them cheap though.
I read online - whether that's to be believed that some non Porsche dealers were not even prepared to offer a trade in value
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That certainly is. The Jaguar iPace is another with a less than great depreciation curve
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The fast pace of the tech doesn’t help ev’s in 3 years time might have half as much capacity again as current ones, a petrol engine car in 3 years time is going to be very similar to one today
The funny thing is that even a 5 year old iPace is still a very good EV, lacking very little in battery capacity, charge speed or performance, so not sure the ‘tech’ is moving that quickly at the moment.
I don’t see battery chemistries making a volume step change over the next 3 years either, nor charge speeds, but both new and used should get cheaper which is what everybody has been saying they want.
Toyota would beg to differ,
https://newsroom.toyota.eu/toyotas-a...hicle%20weight.
Lithium-Ion and LifePo4 batteries are not ‘new technologies’.
They’re also talking about timescales way beyond the next 3 years, the solid state Li-Ion batteries as an example ‘ready for production in 2028’.
That piece even talks about ‘just like current petrol engines, customers will have a range of different chemistries available to choose from’.
Toyota are not the leaders in much these days, and certainly not EVs. Whilst they talk about developing LifePo4 batteries, Tesla are already using them in half the vehicles they build, and they’re cobalt free.
I read the piece, depending which battery the expectations are release dates '26, or '27/28...it's 2024 in under 60 days, so hardly ''way'' beyond three years is it, oh great electric sage?
The extended ranges they talk about, over 800 clicks for one and over 1000 clicks for another and more rapid charge times, sounds pretty good...lower prices also got a mention which is great, my own feeling being these BEV things should be cheaper than ICE vehicles, just a matter of time.
I get the sense you´re a Tesla fan, cool, but Musk's a knob and his cars are bland, sometimes ugly, the build quality and looks aren´t for everyone...I´m never going to spend money with him. I found the info from Toyota encouraging on the cost, range, charge speeds and release times and thought I´d try and join the pro electric conversation. Oh well.
Last edited by Passenger; 3rd November 2023 at 09:04.
Not sure you really deserve a response, given the tone, but you’re obviously ‘EV curious’ to the extent that you’ve googled a piece to try and disprove my view that there are no game changing EV battery technologies coming in the next 3 years, so here’s one anyway.
Every EV manufacturer is talking about 800-1000k ranges, Mercedes have even built one, but the reality is that battery tech will be evolutionary and not revolutionary. It’s marketing and newsroom fluff.
Toyota are far behind others, their quoted 10-80% rapid charge times are happening in other manufacturers vehicles now, not in 3-5 years time. And guess what, their solid state Li-Ion pack doesn’t even exist yet.
Battery manufacturers are driving development, not Toyota, who I’m afraid are just saying ‘don’t buy a BEV that we can’t really sell you yet, look what’s coming’.
Facts are, a new BEV today will still be a very usable car in 3, even 8 years time. Whilst some people are kicking the can down the road and waiting, which is fine, others when it’s time to change their car have purchased EVs and proven that they’re viable vehicles.
I last charged one of our EVs 7 days ago, been doing the school run, the shopping trips, welfare trips to my fathers, and a medical appointment yesterday, and it’s still 55% charged.
But sure, let’s wait until Toyota say we’re all ready.
Hmm think I too might detect a touch of tone, you quite sure it´s ´fine´ with you T, if some take a beat and wait, consider other makes than Tesla? C´mon don´t be thin skinned it´, ´´Electric Sage´´ was written, meant with a smile...and you are rather smashing the topic- thread.
Btw not everyone wants or can afford a Mercedes...´old man cars´ according to my missus, likely because her Pa had them for many years I reckon something to do with it... but a lot of people do seem to want the peace of mind that comes with 800 to 1000 click ranges...and IF that can be achieved at a sensible price, so much the better...though I can see that `potentially could jar with those who paid the premiums associated with ´´driving the future´´. still you pays your money you makes your choice.
Well, I was EV curious.
Last edited by Passenger; 3rd November 2023 at 09:35.
I respect your views on here about many things, and I apologise if I’ve missed your tone here, but on this particular topic you’re relying on google and press releases. That’s my point.Hmm think I too might detect a touch of tone, you quite sure it´s ´fine´ with you T, if some take a beat and wait, consider other makes than Tesla? C´mon don´t be thin skinned it´, ´´Electric Sage´´ was written, meant with a smile...and you are rather smashing the topic- thread.
Btw not everyone wants or can afford a Mercedes...´old man cars´ according to my missus... but a lot of people do seem to want the peace of mind that comes with 800 to 1000 click ranges...and IF that can be achieved at a sensible price, so much the better...though I can see that `potentially could jar with those who paid the premiums associated with ´´driving the future´´
Well, I was EV curious.
Every manufacturer who isn’t doing very well in the race to personal transport electrification is saying the same thing. ‘Wait for our new batteries, look at our forecast charging speeds etc etc’.
LifePO4 batteries, and even Toyota say this, will likely make up the bulk of EV batteries in the short to medium term, but they’re here already and being used in volume. They are lower cost and will help bring down the cost of EVs.
Every battery manufacturer has a ‘halo’ chemistry in development, but they won’t yet be in the mainstream models, and not for a long time, in my opinion as an EV driver for almost a decade.
I was replying to somebody who was citing that tech was moving so fast that a car purchased today could be obsolete in 3 years. My wife’s EV (a Tesla M3) is 3 years old next March, it’s far from obsolete, and my point is I don’t see anything game changing coming in the next 3 years either, not to the mass market anyway.
1000km range cars will likely always need big batteries, and most people don’t need big battery EVs. What they do need is a reliable, fast and ubiquitous charging network, so they can ‘sweat the asset’ easily. ‘Peace of mind’ is a valuable commodity, but then so is not carrying around battery that you don’t need most of the time.
It’s why I live in a house and not a hotel just because I have some people around for Christmas…
this, it gets a bit boring when people constantly say when they can go 1000km on a single charge and i can charge it in 5 minutes ill buy one, when the reality is the majority of people dont need a 1000km range.
Fair do´s, you are the electric early adopter non pareil, years of experience should be respected... though fwiw I still agree with those predicting 3 or so years the big game changer will be price, parity with ICE...and Musk, just poisons the product for me, always will.
Like on so many things, we agree on more than we disagree, I’m sure.
I certainly see EVs getting cheaper over the next 3 years, but that’s already happening on volume alone. Used EV prices will continue to be more accessible too.
Yes, and Musk, when my wife chose a Tesla she didn’t really consider him as a factor, but she’s decided that whatever EV replaces it she won’t be buying another Tesla.
With regards to obsolescence, my eight year old van is totally obsolete; 24kwhr battery, 50kw max charging and 3.5kw home charging. It even has a type 1 charge port and Chademo (anyone remember that?).
At 66,000 miles though, it still does everything I need it to.
Obsolete doesn’t have to equate to useless.
I also see aerodynamics, weight saving and motor efficiency being the major contributors to increased range in the shorter term, new battery technology in the longer term.
Last edited by Dave+63; 3rd November 2023 at 10:45.
I think we’re in a weird situation with EVs
There will always be the hardcore diehard petrol heads that will never change to electric, there are some of us that have and are making it work and my suspicions are there are a huge amount more who are just currently sitting on the fence waiting.
As with the motor trade in general if there is a necessity then it will happen by hook or crook. I still think that range is a stumbling block for most ownership ( and other things of course ) but once a reasonably priced + 400 mile model is released battery tech will accelerate.
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This is the key argument I have with people....if you're only charging once a week then a little bit of inconvenience is fine. Even if you can't charge at home you could tie it with a weekly shopping trip / coffee stop.
The other thing is i live in a Victorian terrace and we're seeing more and more people use their garages (that just used to be dumping grounds) to charge the cars. Doesn't work for everyone but next door have a PIH and a BEV and they just swap between them on the charger, with the cars sitting out the front when not needing charged.
Of course the bigger issue is that if you're only charging once a week do you really need to own a car at all? Cycling, public transport, car sharing schemes or even taxis work just as well in cities and are far cheaper. Granted outside of cities they don't but that pic above looks very city like.
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