I read that earlier - it seems to have some mixed messages TBH. Whilst I really want the planet to be saved, I am really sceptical with some of the claims and the issues around charge points and the reliability and the widely varying tariffs etc. I am hugely suspicious that the loss of revenue from ICE fuel sales will pile onto EV's and it will effectively be a nil-sum situation in cash terms for the end user.Originally Posted by Tooks
I appreciate that currently the EV debate is dependant on personal/job circumstances - for us, I could use an EV without issue except there are non that I currently like that are 100% EV and the cost of conversion to those I do is not worth it to me. My wife might struggle occasionally in that she is unable to charge at work and there are non en-route - plus working shifts is not conducive to 'topping up' after being hammered on a night shift.
We never do the 'stop off for food/coffee' when going anywhere and this seems to be a necessary process driving an EV.
I appreciate this is a negative standpoint for sure, but I am still not convinced it's the solution currently.
BTW, I would never buy a McLaren - it's the most effective solution to loosing money after a family stay at Centre Parcs.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Yep...right.
Great for a 20 or 30 mile commute, or a town car....but I need to do a return journey to Scotland twice a month....my car (BMW 4 Series) has a tank range of over 500 miles and a refuel takes minutes.
Will be happy to change to an EV when they can get anywhere near this.
To be fair Chris, neither am I convinced it’s the total solution. I support grey pointy fast flying things for a living, I know that some things it will never be practical to electrify, not in my lifetime anyway!
I can drive for 3 hours at a time in the ID.3, possibly more in the Tesla, and I’m ready for a break by then anyway, but that’s an age thing I’m sure.
I totally get why people are reluctant or have suspicions around EVs, I’m just trying to help people with some of the questions being raised is all. I’ve been doing it for a good while now, but I accept (and have said) that they might not work for everybody yet.
I’m with you on Centre Parcs, when did that get so expensive?! 😳😂
Tooks, if I may ask, do you know the cost of a full charge on the ID.3?
I’ve shortlisted the MG5 long range and the ID.3 for my next taxi and I was wondering what the cost to charge is.
Cheers.
Whilst I think the pcp or lease model is where I’d go for an EV - with uncertainty over their value retention and the sheer upfront cost - what always makes me chuckle are these deals on 6k or 9k miles a year. If that’s all you’re doing just buy an old banger for £3k, you won’t benefit much from the lack of fuel costs and why spend al that money on something that you hardly use? I think in this instance a new car is mostly about status on the driveway and in the car park isn’t it?
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Have you done the calculations on what you will save in BIK? That should be sufficient to convince you.
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The ID.3 has a 58kWh useable battery pack, so times that by whatever you pay for electricity at home. Add on about 10% for charging losses.
For me, on my 12p per kWh home tariff and charging from zero, that’s just over £7.50, or just under 4p per mile based on a 200 mile range. Rapid charging at 40p per kWh, the economics change a bit obviously, but that’s only for my longer journeys and I’m not charging from zero for that, it would be more than likely a quick top up to get me home or to my destination.
The ID.3 also has 100kW charging (from low state of charge with a warm battery), it’s supposedly being upped to 125kW with a forthcoming software update, which might be of interest if you’re using it for taxi work.
Was thinking reading this thread if we had ev's first then someone came along and said I've invented a new form of motive power. It involves a lot of parts that have to be engineered to work together, powered by an on-board electrical system driven from a belt and this engine is fuelled by a volatile, toxic, inflammable liquid that has to be extracted from the ground in deserts, polar wastes or from below the seabed and then refined and shipped around the world and will cause pollution during extraction, refining, shipping and use would we think that sounds fantastic, where do we sign up?
I say let's skip the middle-man, batteries and even hydrogen.......and all just go straight to cars powered by miniature on-board nuclear reactors. Job done, what could go wrong
This....said exactly the same to the wife the other day.👍
From my memory (which isn't always that reliable I grant you), I think that's exactly what happened if you look back in automotive history. Electric powered vehicles are far from a new idea and pre-date the ICE.
Thank you.
This is true, EVs are not a new thing, they failed last time for various reasons. This is an interesting article;
https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...droidApp_Other
A comment that dates it, is this one;
In the years that followed, as more people bought private cars, electric vehicles took on a new connotation: they were women’s cars. This association arose because they were suitable for short, local trips, did not require hand cranking to start or gear shifting to operate, and were extremely reliable by virtue of their simple design. As an advertisement for Babcock Electric vehicles put it in 1910, “She who drives a Babcock Electric has nothing to fear”. The implication was that women, unable to cope with the complexities of driving and maintaining petrol vehicles, should buy electric vehicles instead. Men, by contrast, were assumed to be more capable mechanics, for whom greater complexity and lower reliability were prices worth paying for powerful, manly petrol vehicles with superior performance and range.
I get your point but surely that 3k car you’re purchasing was once potentially a 30k car, eventually they’ll filter through and that argument won’t be valid. You could really say that now for an ICE vehicle.
That’s a valid point but my question would be, unless battery technology changes you’ll by that time in its lifespan have a 10 mile range on a 100% charge. Or have to throw mega bucks at new batteries where as now you see lots of old cars what cost very little to run towards the end of there lifecycle.
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Except for the fact that the batteries don’t wear out very quickly and are likely to outlast the lifespan of the car before being repurposed elsewhere.
Whereas the 100k+ mile engine and gearbox is likely on its last legs.
I know Tesla state something like 10% battery degradation over 100k miles but reports seem to do better than that. They’ve also recently changed their warranty up-to 8 years I believe and will replace if under 70%. The honest answer is I think no one really knows, I’m sure the electric car regarding the second hand market will find it’s place and fit in. I know from being in the trade for years that people throw huge amounts of money at vehicles that aren’t economically viable to do so and I’m sure electrics cars won’t be any different to that.
Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 15th August 2021 at 08:24.
As an aside, I understand the concept of spending more on a car than would be economically viable; spending say £1k a year in a £2k car may seem like madness but if the alternative is £200/month on a newer car, it’s still cheaper overall to keep the old one in the road and, if you’ve had it a number of years, you know it’s history and foibles. That’s without considering that we tend to become attached to our cars.
Yeh you’re right people are financially and emotionally attached to their vehicles but for me when handing over a bill to a customer for £4k on a car that’s worth under £2K it feels wrong. For us it’s a simple case of economics....repair costs V value. We have a rule now and that’s if the costs to repair the vehicle far out ways the value of the vehicle we will always advise them of that. Morally it’s something we should be doing especially when you also don’t know what’s round the corner....people hardly ever listen though.
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Last edited by jaytip; 15th August 2021 at 08:48.
I can see that, from a business point of view, you’d be on shaky ground if you didn’t at least advise the customer of the situation. From then on though, it should be his decision. I can also see why you wouldn’t want to do it even after advising them as people often lie and you could end up paying anyway.
It’s the few that do slip through the net that become rare classics further down the line though.
Last edited by Dave+63; 15th August 2021 at 08:59.
I’ve seen this a couple of times in the thread. I know this isn’t exactly what you’re saying, but energy isn’t created or used, just converted from one form to another. You need to carry a lot of energy about to move your vehicle. Petrol, and diesel, have been a hugely convenient means of carrying about vast amounts of energy.
Probably more important in discussing hydrogen vs electric is the efficiency of the conversion from original energy source (coal, solar, wind etc) into the usable vehicle energy source (electric, hydrogen etc).
I bought a hybrid (Golf GTE) 2 years ago and replaced it with another 320d 4 months ago.
It’s clear that for a lot of people an EV just isn’t a viable option at the moment due to where they live, work, vehicle requirements and usage patterns. If it works for you, great, you are fortunate.
Swanage has 6 public charge points in the town car parks. When I’m in Swanage I have a permit for the private bays. I asked the town council if I could put my hybrid in a charging bay for the morning and move at lunchtime when it’s charged. Yes, but I’d have to pay for the parking. Great. No charging facility in the private bays.
Oh, and have you seen how many cars descend on Swanage on a summer’s day!? Six charging points to go round. I know it’ll change, but during my hybrid ownership I did come to the hasty conclusion, hydrogen.
(I met a friend from the Midlands at random points on the south coast while I had the GTE. We found somewhere to park, walk, swim, have lunch etc. Never once was I able to recharge during the stay. If I’d had EV-only it would have wiped out many potential places to meet and we’d have been going where I could recharge rather than where we wanted to go. And good luck recharging in Swanage when it’s busy.)
To be fair it’s simply not true, there are many examples of 100k+, 150k cars that have been well maintained and continue to provide service to families. It might have been true in the 70’s & 80’s but it’s a misnomer today.
The issue is normally one of economics when a component failure is close to or greater that the cars value.
That said I suspect we are in for an interesting time as the ability to change individual cells in a battery pack to reduce degradation exists and will become more commonplace reducing the need to replace whole packs, the question in my mind is will we see control systems become a limiting factor.
Yes, I was really just making the point that there is no ‘free lunch’ with Hydrogen either, and it takes a lot of electricity itself to create it via electrolysis, but most of it is made currently by reforming natural gas and storing the carbon in a CCS system. Then there’s the infrastructure that will need to be built for that as well if it gets rolled out everywhere. I don’t see manufacturers, other than Toyota, pushing out Hydrogen cars either, I just don’t see the same momentum.
I think it has a role to play though, hydrogen HGVs or other heavier vehicles etc. For passenger cars though, EVs work pretty well already and are getting better.
Re Swanage and other coastal towns, yes, they’re missing a trick. It’s a chicken and egg thing for sure.
That said, I’m not sure how far you drive to get to Swanage, but a 200 mile range EV gives you quite a few options if you’re setting off fully charged. There’s always the option to stop on a Rapid charger for 20 mins to make that over 250 miles as well, and that’s on a standard 50kW rapid.
I’m not criticising anybody for thinking this through, and feeling nervous about the infrastructure, I did the same and purchased an EV when the charging networks were even worse, that’s the reason I went for an i3 REx back then. Mind you, the 70 mile battery range and the same again in the 8 litre fuel tank got a bit wearing!
7 years later, it’s much different, I now do near 500 miles trips without worrying about charging because the cars are better and the charging networks are more ubiquitous.
I know people worry about running out of juice on the road, my EV owning neighbours have done that once in an early Leaf, but then people somehow manage to run out of petrol/diesel every day as well.
I’m not anti fossil fuelled car, far from it, I’m a car ‘nut’ and enjoy cars generally. It just feels weird to me now to be filling up a car with liquid fuels and the whole process seems like a faff.
The most important thing is that people should do whatever works for them and their circumstances, but beware the common ‘untruths’ that get pushed about. We can’t ‘do nothing’ though.
I’m a fan of EV’s and I absolutely will be getting one, but this statement is just so far wide of the mark.
I’ve got two cars in my household, a 2016 E Class that I bought from new which now has just over 140K on the clock and I’d say over 90% of that mileage is from taxi use which is hard mileage, and I’ve recently bought a 2007 Passat that has 150K on the clock that has surprised me in how smooth and rattle free it is.
Some figures which at first I found difficult to believe but looking deeper it appears are correct....there are currently under 10k operational fuel filling stations in the UK, that doesn’t include those under construction. Those sites accommodate almost 40 million licensed vehicles on a regular basic.
Since I’ve owned a car I’ve never had the ability to refuel my car at home like the vast majority of people. True some places of work have their own tanks like transport companies etc but it can only be a small percentage, I’ve always had to rely on filling up at my chosen station.
Let’s assume a good majority ( as there will be ) once EVs are mainstream will have the ability to recharge their car at home.....how much reliance on these stations will there be and will there actually need to be as many as we imagine? If 10k sites can accommodate 40mil cars will there really need to be as many sites?
One thing this has shown however is that hydrogen is far from a done deal...again looking at the figures if true there appears to be currently under a dozen hydrogen stations in the UK. These people I’m guessing won’t have the ability to refuel at home and will be solely reliant on stations for which we will need to invest greatly in if we’re to get anywhere near to the 10k sites we have currently for petrol and diesel.
The big difference though is that someone filling up with petrol or diesel will be in and out of the station in minutes whereas charging takes considerably more time.
The only way around that is for manufactures (and suppliers of chargers) to offer very fast charging capabilities at competitive prices.
At the moment only the most expensive cars offer very fast charging, and the companies who offer the fastest chargers like Ionity charge a bomb for using them.
But again that’s untested waters.....until we’re there it’s impossible to know. There’s clearly going to be, but how many people on average do more than 200 miles a day? For the vast majority of people 200 miles will be more than enough, it’s going to be the likes or reps etc that are always on the road which will need this capability...which brings about the point....how many will we really need?
Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 15th August 2021 at 11:10.
Yes, my comment was a bit flippant, I’ve owned and driven 100k+ mileage cars with no concern. I’ll happily drive similar mileage EVs with even less concern though (I know that’s not possible but you get my drift?).
Premier Cabs in Blackpool have been running EV taxis for more than a decade and have 200k+ mileage cars on their fleet. These are the early, 24kwhr Leafs too. Extrapolate that up to a 60 or 75kwhr battery and you’re looking at a minimum of 600,000 miles from a battery and it still being functional.
There’s also the cost of getting an ICE to 100,000 miles with servicing every 10-20,000 miles, cam belt change, gearbox oil change etc, whereas an EV doesn’t need any of that as there’s nothing to service.
I know that dealers supposedly service EVs but they don’t actually do anything more than a visual check (see Rick’s post earlier).
Ionity charge 69p per kWh for ‘casual’ users, the target market for those chargers are subscribers or the drivers of cars from the manufacturers who have funded them.
In the VW ID.3, I got 2000 kWh ‘free’ with the car, and then I’ll pay 29p per kWh once that’s used up if I subscribe at £7.50 a month, or 45p per kWh if I just pay as I go, which is similar to the price for other slower chargers.
In the Tesla, Supercharger access is currently 35p per kWh. That network is being opened up to all EVs in the next few months according to Elon Musk, which will annoy Tesla folks I’m sure!
I think we’d need to look at the % of homes in the UK that have no off street parking to get a better idea.
It’s a no brainier to charge at home overnight if you have the means to do so. I do and as such, I’m going to convert, but there will be be many, many homes that can’t. They will have to rely on public charging stations.
The queues I have seen waiting to fill up at my local Sainsbury’s petrol station is staggering and that’s with there being plenty of other fuel stations in the area and refuelling only taking a few minutes and most cars having a range exceeding 300+ miles on a full tank.
Now flip that to electric cars with less range and far longer charging times? If there is a massive uptake in electric cars, where are the extra charging stations going to come from? Will they be purpose built or repurposed petrol stations? The closest petrol station to me (and the only one in the town I live in) has space for eight cars. That’s not going to service many electric cars.
I’m not bashing EV’s here, I’m an advocate for them, but there is going to have to be billions of pounds ploughed into infrastructure for them to work.
Tesla aside who are leading the way regarding infrastructure, my argument still stands though (at this current time) that the fastest, most convenient charging times come at a cost, both in terms of cost of the car, and the speed of the charger.
Yes, and large sums of private and public money is being spent on that already. Google Gridserve and their plans to open EV fuel stations and grid balancing services all over the U.K. The first site is up and running in Braintree, and they’ve also taken over the old Ecotricity EH network and they’re upgrading that as well.
My Sister in Law is working on a project in London that is installing kerbside slow charging for cars parked up at the roadside. It uses the cable network for street lighting.
Other projects are underway testing vehicle to grid technology, so that demand on the grid can be smoothed. Norway are already trialling this at scale in some of their cities.
It might seem daunting, but there is an answer to almost every issue that gets thrown up, it’s a question of the will and investment to do it. If there’s money to be made, and I’m sure there is, then I think it will happen.
But not overnight.
Yes agreed, it’s still early days in terms of charging infrastructure and affordable quick charging cars. If you can get even 100kW charging it makes a difference though.
My last EV was a 40kW charge rate e-Golf that could take on board 0.66kW a minute, or 2.5 miles of range.
The ID.3 hits 1.6kW a minute, or over 6 miles of range added. Over 10 mins that’s 60+ miles versus 25 in the older car.
The Tesla in theory could hit 15 miles per minute, but I’ve never seen that sort of speed.
And honestly, I can’t wait for it to happen.
Im going to test drive an ID.3 and the MG5 next week if I can, and see what sort of finance figures I can get. I’ve already got the figures for the MG5 long range and for my purposes (taxi) they are very good. I just don’t particularly like the shape of the car.
My heart says ID.3 but my head says MG5.
There’s certainly an awful lot of housing stock that are unsuitable for EV charging in its present form and that will certainly need to be addressed.
If (or when) induction charging of EVs becomes commonplace, every parking space in the land could conceivably be converted with a loop embedded in the surface.
Moving on from that, dynamic induction has been tried and seen to work; tests loops in series embedded in the road surface, each one providing a small amount of charge as the car passes over it.
Granted, both of the above will be incredibly expensive and entail massive upheaval (or possibly just being done in preparation as roads are resurfaced- no more onerous than converting to smart motorways) but they are a possible solution.
Whichever route is chosen to allow those households to run EVs, a solution will be found. Also worth mentioning that a single weekly charge of a 200 mile EV is good for over 10,000 miles per year.
Last edited by Dave+63; 15th August 2021 at 12:01.
It will be interesting to get your thoughts on them, the MG5 LR looks like a great car for taxi work, probably more so than the ID.3 although there are a few being used as Taxis out there in the U.K. and more in Europe.
You’ve mentioned along range MG5 a couple of times now; when I was looking at one last year they all came with a 52.5kwhr battery, has that changed?
Edit: I see they also do one with a 61kwhr battery.
Last edited by Dave+63; 15th August 2021 at 11:51.
I guess from the then redundant fuel stations....if there’s money to be made then stations will be changed over to suit the change of use?
However I take on board your worries and I think there are hurdles but I don’t think they’re insurmountable.
There’s a 61kWh version that’s recently been announced, with 115kW charging capability.
Thanks, I’ve just been their website and seen it.
The other thing I liked about the ID3/4 was that it still maintained quite a lot of functions that were accessible in the conventional way, ie without having to turn the heating system or wipers on via a p***ing screen.
There are quite a few MG5 taxis appearing around us; it’s got to be a no brainer really.
Seems like the government missed an opportunity to gather information about on/off street parking in the last census.....opportunity missed or what?
People like new cars - so ultimately, and until an alternative form of energy comes along, the adoption of EVs is inevitable.
One of the most popular Motorway service areas has (had?) ambitious plans for expanding their number of charging stations, but were told that to increase the grid capacity to the site would cost in excess of £1,000,000. We have similar problems at the vehicle distribution site where I work - limited capacity.
In the meantime, the number of public charging stations is increasing rapidly and the industry is finally responding to the potential demand. Gridserve have already been mentioned. Genie, Instavolt, ESB and Ionity are amongst those moving towards 150kW and 350kW charging with contactless payment. Several companies are working on universal chargecards for business and higher-mileage users.
In spite of the public perception, Tesla are now far from the market leader in the number of chargepoints (https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/)although they currently have "enough" thanks to the generally higher range of their cars. This may change as if they throw the network open to non-Tesla owners.
In short, EV use may not be getting cheaper, but it IS getting easier. And the supply industry is changing rapidly.
One factor that hasn't been discussed is how the major fuel companies will react to the loss of revenue as EVs begin to dominate the market. Shell and BP attempts seem to be quite cautious at present, but this will have to change soon. Liquid fuel prices in the UK are now the highest they have ever been.
In addition, this swing to EV will affect the influence of the Middle East oil producers.
Very interesting times - we haven't seen the end game yet.
Good points there @UKMike and agree that the shift in power in the world with the reliance on the oil distributing countries will be interesting.
Yep, Tesla are far from having the most charging points nationally but I have never arrived at a SC and NOT been able to charge. This is in complete contrast to the public network where more often than not I have been let down by out of order chargers but I am sure this will change as more appear and the network providers up their games.
Pitch
BP own Pulse (used to be called Polar) and they’re installing some high power chargers on BP forecourts as well now.
Shell own NewMotion which is a huge EU network, and they too are installing Shell branded Rapid chargers on suitable sites/forecourts.
I think they see which way the wind is blowing and want a piece of whatever the future holds as well.
Oil extraction is still massively important, we couldn’t live without oil currently, but it’s far too valuable to burn in cars is my view.
I think the difference that I have seen personally between Tesla and other charging networks is the amount of chargers in any given place. The motorway services that I have visited tend to only have a couple of chargers whereas Tesla seem to have about 8.
Our experience of electric cars is that they are truly fabulous to drive. We swapped out of a Discovery 4 and a Volvo XC60 into two Golfs - a seven year old petrol one and a new E-Golf.
Both of us far prefer driving the electric car to the petrol equivalent - the sense of instant power and responsiveness (nothing like as fast as a Tesla of course) is really great.
Obviously the cars we sold have capabilities (space, 4WD) that the Golfs don't have, but we're saving about £5k per annum in fuel/tax/servicing/insurance costs which more than offsets the borrowing required for the capital costs.
Regarding virtue signalling (which seems to have upset some on here) we simply felt we couldn't justify two large, heavy vehicles after the kids had left home and were (mostly!) not coming on holidays with us. Having said that, there's a lot of interest in EVs, and we know of at least two families who have opted for one after hearing of our largely very positive experience.
Best wishes,
Martyn.
Well, depending on the finance and availability I’ve decided on either an ID.3, ID.4 or an Enyaq.
I’ve discounted the cheaper and more sensible option of the MG5 because I’m simply not a fan of the way it looks and if I decide to move on from the taxis I’d be stuck with a car I don’t like to look at.
I’d happily own and ID.3/4 or Enyaq regardless of my job.
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