Like you I am limited by what I can say however “just ordering more” is really not simple for something so complex. Easy when it’s fasteners or low level components, not complex dangerous assemblies. This comment either shows a lack of understanding on your part (which I doubt given previous posts) or simply a case of having another digOriginally Posted by adrianw
Also your information about establishing blame prior to taking action is incorrect and it’s not the priority. Like all businesses with suppliers of there are contractual elements and of course poor quality from suppliers is a problem
At this point though from what you have said your car also does not have this error state so you can comment as an owner but you don’t actually have the problem.
Overall every single OEM goes through similar issues you just have to look a bit wider
My wife's car hasn't exhibited the fault yet because we have not had the recall carried out yet, however I suspect we will invalidate the warranty if we don't.
I have been chased for enough warranty investigations to know exactly how it works.
I think you are defending the indefensible, the I pace situation is going to deteriorate unless JLR wake up, it's going to cost them and that's the issue
Its not just the I- Pace issue, It’s already costing them big style, I had a lovely presentation box this week of 2 woolly hats, some oat biscuits and some speciality tea and coffee all JLR branded as a way of an apology. I guess that’s better than nothing to recoup a vehicle blocked on my ramp for a month not earning me a brass bean
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Just watched Harry Metcalfs latest offering on Harry’s Garage. All about why he as gone back to Diesel RRS he makes some interesting points, well worth a watch
He’ll regret buying that for so many reasons.
Thanks Hilly...very, very interesting indeed...especially on battery degradation, range wilt, some frankly very concerning numbers on how rapidly this happens in hot environments like mine...food for thought, cheers...good lord also the findings on cold weather performance/ range wilt again...ev curious but I couldn't part with my own money and then after a few years discover the new car I'd bought with say an advertised 350/400 miles on a full charge, did in the real world less than half that...I'd feel conned, cheated, gypped! I dislike that feeling intensely...will be different if your car comes via work plus you're also getting a tax break to sweeten the deal...for the private buyer though, lets say considering a used ev with a few miles/ coupla years on it's battery, to not be reliably able to determine the health of that battery...lotta risk/ regret to assume, especially if you plan to use the car for more than a short run about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw
Last edited by Passenger; 10th February 2024 at 12:06.
Yes a very unbiased look at the market, talks a lot of sense does Harry
It’s a brand new one. I thought they stopped production of all diesel cars.
My daughter has just ordered her new company car and like others she has gone EV purely for the tax break circa £400 a month not to be sneezed at.
I would go EV in an instant if I did not do some long haul journeys, this year alone we have two road trips down to Murcia where our friends live, we will there two months then three months so will keep my X3 which is capable of 56 MPG. When I settle down to pottering to the shops and doing no more then a 30 mile journey it will be electric for me
Interesting, I hadn't considered battery degradation and how quantifiable it is, also hadn't considered it as a function of charging regime or local climate. If I bought electric it would have to be second-hand and a few years old, I simply don't do sufficient mileage to make buying a newish car a remotely sensible decision no matter how it's financed. Harry talks a lot of sense, for a private buyer with no tax incentives buying an EV doesn't look viable unless you're happy to throw money away.
For a private buyer, the current second hand prices of EVs make buying used by far the most sensible option.
Even with new though, the ongoing running costs are much lower in an EV so the rapid depreciation of a new EV has to be offset against the cost of running the vehicle. There always has to be a calculation done to determine the break even mileage when deciding which to choose.
Then, of course, there’s man maths to throw into the mix.
Here's another angle, EV's after 8 years or so of running if I understand correctly become carbon neutral/ have at last offset the greater energy inputs/ C02 generated in their manufacture...if that's 8 years in a Spanish climate, I'd then have to buy another bloody one cos the compromised starting range will be truly rubbish/ not fit for purpose...I likely wouldn't be able to sell it on...probably have to give it, pay someone to take it away.
Good for the manufacturers AHA, bad for my pocket, not all that wow for the planet...final points more a nice to aspire too, accepting nobody buying an EV's considering climatic consequence.
EV's bit of a fad?
Should we all not pause, the makers obviously need to refocus on smaller, lighter more efficient and affordable vehicles. Stop this paradigm encouraging them making- flogging the vast, over powered expensive barges that the govt bribes encourage...nobody needs an electric porsche, the range´ll be crap after a few years if it ain´t at the start...it´s just another way of encouraging the ott personal consumption that´s unsustainable, with a fig leaf of good for the environment bluff.
And there is the crux of the matter. Stop building the expensive cars 50k plus and starting putting all efforts to produce cars that will commute efficiently with batteries lasting longer and eventually ranges of 450 miles
But buying 2nd hand there´s no data on how that battery capacity- efficiency is currently, what kind of ´life´ it´s hard in terms of fast charging etc. that seems one of the big issues raised by Harry...you just don´t know ...not like with an ordinary car, there´s service history, mot...
Even with a service history (which you can equally have with an EV) and MOT (which most EVs also need), you still don’t know how hard a life the engine/gearbox has had. You are as much at risk buying second hand whether you’re buying EV or ICE.
At least with an EV, it’s only the range that’s likely to suffer, with ICE, it can go pop at any time and be undriveable.
Battery health is easy to find using an OBD reader; should you wish to get it professionally checked before buying, that information will be one of the first things highlighted. Even my old van tells me how good the battery is and every EV gives and indication of the range; not particularly accurate I know but the difference between a car showing 300 mile range and one showing 200 miles (when both showing 100% charge) will be immediately obvious.
As an aside, my van currently has a range of about 50 miles (I’ve got 17” wheels with wider tyres than standard on it) which will go back over 60 in the better weather. I estimate that I lose about two miles a year from a 24kwhr battery which is currently nine years old and showing 67,000 miles.
Last edited by Dave+63; 10th February 2024 at 13:32.
He talks some sense but also some total nonsense. He didn't buy the BMW because it looked like it had been designed by a committee! LOL, he then goes on to buy one of the most overinflated, hyped up, generic, unreliable vehicles on the road. When a JLR product comes towards you what is it…..a D5? A sport? A new Defender? An Evoque? Clearly and quite obviously an EV doesn't meets his current needs and he's gone back to diesel…and so what? If that were the case he should never have dabbled with EVs in the first place. Then goes on to say that he doesnt want the toys but wants a sensible efficient family car…LOL he then buys a new RRS…FFS! Go buy a Kia
Not forgetting also the worst thing about virtually every modern diesel engined vehicle, the emission controls and DPF systems. Just a bomb waiting to go off at any time that will also costs thousands.
I believe batteries are recyclable. Already there are experiments (Sweden, I believe) where "filling up" amounts to swapping your empty battery for a full one.
I believe EV will move towards a standardisation of swappable battery packs, which in turn will eliminate the issues some highlighted above.
We are a few years down from the model T in terms of EV, and it was then a giant step up to what ICE vehicles were. EV may evolve the same way and in a few years the Leaf will look like what the cars who do the London to Brighton run looks to ICE users.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Totally agree
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I don't think we are likely to move to standardised batery packs - as it will force a high degree of standardisation on car manufacturer. Rather the direction seems to be the opposite with manufactuerers usomg the battery as structural/integral to the design.
Nio have the battery swap system, a big network in Norway, and Tesla did have automated battery swap stations back in the day as well, but there was little demand for it, people wanted ‘their’ own battery.
I was thinking Harry Metcalfe’s latest musings would get the thread going again, but all he’s doing is justifying the car that he believes suits his purposes best, which is of course what we all do.
Our own EVs are coming up to 2 and 3 years old and circa 45k and 34k miles respectively, range isn’t noticeably any different to when they were new.
But heck, what do I know, I’m not a millionaire publisher and YouTuber!
Well, I think 8 years is at the extreme end of the calcs, my ID.4 was carbon neutral at point of manufacture, but not all manufacturers do what VW do with their ID models.
The economics for me stack up, and let’s not forget that EVs in the UK aren’t subsidised at all, but over the 5 years and 110k miles I plan to keep it, it will have saved me net at least £20k in fuel costs. That turns a £50k car into a £30k one.
To think, I used to spend £12k a year on a train season ticket and car parking, in comparison my EV feels like a bargain!
I'll break even in less than three years at current and projected running costs
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
On a slightly different note, having driven our Cupra Born for the last 6 weeks exclusively (my wife has driven it 3 times and hates it for some reason) I’m finding the charging a doddle (I’ve simply charged it on the drive and topped it up each evening) and don’t experience any range anxiety. It’s very easy and smooth to drive, and surprisingly quick when overtaking - a few too many gizmos and stuff that’s there for the sake of it imho, and I still don’t really understand a lot of the functions. Charging via the Ohme home pro with octopus works really well and it’s considerably cheaper that running an ICE car for my usage, whereby it’s hard to justify using our other car for anything but short journeys.
So I took the Fiesta ST out for a spin to a nearby town this afternoon - and the experience of changing gear, the handling, the sound, the balance of the car really shocked me - it’s fantastic and so much better to drive than the Born, the chassis and brakes are in a different class altogether, and I’d forgotten about subliminally listening to the engine and optimising gear changes to match the road etc.
The EV is too easy to drive and has almost dulled my senses - 40 miles in the Fiesta reminded me that you have to engage with the car a bit more and concentrate without relying on technology too much.
I wouldn’t ditch the Born but I’d bet the Fiesta drives better than most EV’s this side of a Taycan if you enjoy a fun drive. And that really took me by surprise as I’d been bery impressed by the Born until this afternoon. Just feels like a fridge on wheels in comparison to a humble little ford. Won’t be waiting 6 weeks again!
Last edited by RobDad; 10th February 2024 at 22:04.
I think the bottom line is that both your Born and Fiesta do the job of transporting where you need/want to go just fine, the rest is down to personal preference/other stuff.
I flew a glider this afternoon, would an F-18 have been more exciting? Possibly, but I guess it depends.
I enjoy driving my wife’s M3 occasionally, it’s stiffer, faster and more darty than my ID.4, and a Fiesta ST wouldn’t know which way it went, but at other times I find it quite irritating.
As we’ve said, comparing a given EV to a given ICE is just that, a one off comparison.
You lost me a bit there, but I was really shocked and surprised how poorly the EV/Born came out in comparison for driving fun/involvement, especially as I’d count myself as an EV convert.
I’m sure a Reliant Robin isn’t as good to drive as my Fiesta which in turn isn’t as good to drive as an M4 which isn’t as good to drive as some Italian exotic. But the price differences in that comparison make some kind of sense.
List prices of the Fiesta and Born are circa £26k and £40k. I wouldn’t be expect the cheaper one to be so much better to drive! Subjective as you say but isn’t everything?
Lots of food for thought...
It’s just guys talking cars, I lose myself sometimes! :-)
It’s more that the sum of a car is much more than just what powers it, as you’ve found, but the job of A to B is covered by even the Reliant Robin you mentioned.
Your Fiesta ST is around 180bhp per ton, your Born around 125bhp per ton, so that alone will make them feel quite different.
How you feel about what a car is doing depends on whether you’re commuting or just out for a spin, Other EVs will drive differently to your Born, which despite being marketed as a sporty ID.3 is still very much at the refined end of things, and not at all bad for it, depending on what you want from a car.
To be fair, I haven’t driven a hot Ford since the Mk1 Focus RS, which was pretty special, but I’ve also had quite a bit of time in the Mk2 and they’re both great cars, just excel at slightly different things.
My Glider anecdote was merely to say I was flying, but there are other ways to fly, same as driving, is all.
As you say, blokes talking cars! Yes I’m sure it’s all very dependent on what exactly you’re comparing. This afternoon the Ford was great fun, but on Monday at 6am I suspect the easy, smooth drive of the Born will be more appealing!
I suspect you’re right. Don’t tell anybody, but I’m still a bit of a petrol head, and I look after some of the most carbon intensive aircraft that you’ll find anywhere.
One of my younger brothers owns a Mitsubishi Evo, I’m insured on it and it’s a great thing to drive, just not around the M25! I like the technical aspect of EVs and find them a great tool for 95% of my driving, but also accept they’re not everybody’s cup of tea.
It’s good to know that, for at least a few of us, it’s not an either/or situation and we can enjoy the best of both worlds.
There will come a time when the choice is not available to most.
When i do buy the EV which will happen as it will make sense in five years time, i will always have this to get my thrills at weekends.
Beautiful thing! :-)When i do buy the EV which will happen as it will make sense in five years time, i will always have this to get my thrills at weekends.
The choice is not available to most now, not everyone can afford to spend £30k, £40k, £50k etc etc on a EV or ICE.
Like earlier in the thread most EV’s are on generous incentive schemes via work, not everyone gets that and when you see a Mini Cooper Countryman ICE for £47500 in a BMW garage like I did when taking my motorbike for a recent bit of work then you realise how crazy the car pricing is atm.
If they want a genuine uptake on EV’s then create a small affordable EV with good range, then and only then will it start to pick up.
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I’m not sure why people always throw the cost argument into the mix, most people don’t buy new cars. EVs have been around long enough now that they can be bought from around £3k. Even brand new, you can pick up cars with decent range from just over £20k (although the list price is much higher), just do a search on Autotrader.
Last edited by Dave+63; 11th February 2024 at 13:16.
I partially agree with you. However for a lot of people the ownership/image/ driving satisfaction is still important to them and the perceived "higher quality" brands remain very expensive.
How often to you see Tesla owners explain why they like their car with range and ease of charging away from home. Driving satisfaction, comfort etc often isn't mentioned. That's not a criticism but I think it possibly illustrates a change in the way we think about the motor car in the EV era.
For me I'm still on the fence about changing to EV as I will be spending my own money and don't change cars every 3 years so need the market to be a little more mature to be comfortable. I watched the recent Harry's Garage video and felt he posed some valid questions especially about making EVs lighter and more efficient. At some point in the future the tax handbrake is going to come off EV benefits and depending how hard that hits may influence EV ownership. In some ways for those of a certain age it could be similar to the Middle East oil crisis and suddenly smaller cars with better mpg became very desirable
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Okay, so having spent three years in a new Tesla Model 3 Performance and now having been back in a ICE car for four months IMO the EV ease of driving is far far more relaxing, comfortable and easy compared to petrol.
Regarding enjoyment……. There is imo no comparison the Tesla was absolutely the most fun car I have ever had. And the tech, don’t get started on that.
Cost of ownership was ridiculously cheap, no servicing costs and fuel over 47,000 miles was laughable even with the rising energy costs over the years.
My budget for my next car is 20k and that now buys a very nice Model S which even by the today’s brand new EV models is still one hell of a car.
Range. As I have said before 350 days of the year 200 mile range is not a problem and the other few days of long hauls, well my bladder now dictates my stops, Q the unrivalled Tesla Supercharger Network.
So, BMW, Mercedes, a nice avant Audi???? Nope, Tesla Model S for me. Comfort, power, tech and spec takes some beating for the running costs of a small run of the mill hatch.
Pitch
But they’re £100k new and now only available in LHD, most people can’t afford that!
Nooooooooooo, I said my budget is 20k above buddy. I would have to sell a kidney and move abroad to have a new one.But they’re £100k new and now only available in LHD, most people can’t afford that!
Sorry if my post confused you.
Pitch
No, it was just my attempt at humour relating back to a few posts earlier, I’d seen your budget was £20k and you are looking at an early model S.
I don’t think I’d be brave enough for an early Tesla, my £20k would probably go on a polestar 2 or a Mach E but I’ll have to wait a w we hike before £20k Mach Es are a thing.
I agree, our two cars are both Mercedes although my van is a Nissan.
That doesn’t alter the fact that EVs are affordable though, just not the prestige brand offerings.
The running costs of EVs over ICE is another big factor which almost invariably gets overlooked when discussing the cost of EVs.
Out of curiosity what are you considering as a replacement for £20k
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Hehehe, sorry fella.
20k would get a 2018 75D so with HCU2, FSD so summon and enhanced AP. Chuck in Ultra def HiFi, vegan seats, CCS air sus and it’s a cracking buy. Proper comfy travel.
There are of course horror stories if you hunt for them but generally given there’s lot of historic feedback and knowledge on the Model S now given its 14 years old the model is holding up extremely well. It will be interesting to see how the current ICE based motors hold up, oh and of course the JLR fare.
I have also been very happy with Tesla’s after sales which has had made my previous 20 years of Audi and BMW service laughable and very very expensive.
Pitch
Thanks. Obviously smitten with Tesla
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Having lived with the Tesla product and tech for three years I guess you could say that. Is it perfect hell no but you cannot deny Tesla has shook the automotive industry up and the main stream manufacturers were caught with their trousers down. The whole shiny suited up showroom b@llocks use to make me boil. Tesla service is sitting oppo a twenty something with a tablet on a sofa with him dressed in a polo shirt telling me what he is going to do on my car over a coffee. It is a very new and refreshing experience.
Again, it is not everyone’s cuppa.
Pitch
They’re quite tempting and with the supercharger network, the 75s are probably big enough.
I reckon that Model S will still look as good in 4 years at 10 years old as it does now.
My sons looking at an ID-3 for his next car. 77kw version can be picked up now for around £20k. He’s only waiting a bit longer as I said to him the market feels like it may drop slightly more yet, so just hold off.
He’s done his man maths vs the mileage he does and it makes a lot of sense to him. He’s 26 just bought a house and is a typical second hand car buyer.
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26 and just bought a house, sounds like a good lad you have there.
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