Reply With QuoteProbably closer to £500 per service these days.Originally Posted by Ruggertech
By costing you thousands in the first three years and 40k miles surely you can't mean maintenance costs? Couple of hundred each for three services, and a set of tyres max. Anything else should be under warranty.
Probably closer to £500 per service these days.
Casting mind back to first 3 years of our Skoda ownership, pretty sure you´re spot R...Coupla hundred fine, expected... coupla thous wot the fuff now, on a new car...pants down.
Last edited by Passenger; 13th January 2024 at 15:21.
For a minor, an interim, and another minor plus fluids? Blimey, glad I got a Ford and a Suzuki. I can see it being around £500 on the third service if you have coolant and brake fluid changed, but not the first two. Still doesn't add up to "thousands" on maintenance for first three years and 40k miles.
Last edited by Ruggertech; 13th January 2024 at 15:36.
Same with me, multiple new Ford's, one Skoda, and a few Suzuki's.
Current Suzuki coming up to three years old, so far two about £200 services and two £70 tyres.
Last edited by Ruggertech; 13th January 2024 at 16:35.
Ah yes, it still has those included as well. I’ve been at a Tibetan centre in London today, it’s now far cheaper to drive than to take the train. 40kW of electricity for a winter return run which comes to three quid, plus a fiver to park at Stanmore and then hop on the tube. For a family trip it’s a total no brainier.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
200 quid for an Audi 6 cylinder service, 1983 maybe. LOL
Audi oil more expensive? ;)
Add in the extra storage space for EVs, they need extra room to be cordoned off.Whilst most EVs designed from the ‘ground up’ do have skateboard style chassis, the sills etc are all high strength steel and like all new cars they have to pass the NCAP side impact tests.
Anything like the NCAP post side impact test would write the car off regardless of what is powering it. Sill bodywork is just like a bumper cover, so cosmetic, more serious structural damage would be a complex and costly repair on any modern car.
The issue with a lot of insurance repair centres currently is they have little or no training or procedures to deal with the high voltage side of things, should they need to disconnect it/make safe/move components to undertake a repair.
The main dealers seem to think so LOL
And their customers believe them it seems.
They don't have a choice while their car is under guarantee. And a dealership calculates the hourly rate by dividing their total outgoings by the number of hours their mechanics can bill. Hence rates close to what some doctors in Harley Street could charge.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Customers can take their new cars where they want to…thankfully practices like that was done away with years ago.
Not true.
Last edited by Ruggertech; 13th January 2024 at 20:35.
Interesting detail about converting a classic to electric: Lots of classic car workshops do not want to touch an electric car. And they're not allowed to under Dutch H&S rules. Have a look in a modern workshop, like Volvo or VW. The work on an electric car is done with great care: fenced area, hazard stripes (black/yellow or here: orange/white) and... only certified mechanics are allowed to work on those cars.
The same goes for body shops and paint shops. Only certified people are allowed to work on these cars. And again, they need to set a perimeter. That takes up space so that they cannot work on another car at the same time. Another reason why it's so expensive to have a dented electric car repaired.
What's the situation in the UK?
Yes most dealers have dedicated techs for working on EVs, I believe some techs can work on them once made safe by a senior tech but they still need training.
I know my last dealership a few years ago had to invest heavily in training and equipment despite the car being a hybrid and only selling one, this was back in 2014(ish). They had to have their own key cabinet and only certain people were the key keepers. Cars were cordoned off when in the workshop..
Don't forget the lovely carbon fibre crook which is used to hook in the back of a techs overalls and yank them off if they were frying on the car.
Electric Classic Cars is a thriving business, you may have seen them on Discovery under Vintage Voltage?
https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/
They’ve done some great conversions, although like most things I’m not a universal fan of some of the stuff they’ve done.
PS. As usual, there’s a lot of misinformation around this, deliberate or otherwise, cars are only cordoned off if they’re damaged or in an unchecked state. Once they’re declared ‘safe’ then suitably trained people can work on them. My local VW dealer has no such cordons around EVs in the workshops, they’re just cars in for service in a workshop, but then they’ve probably got trained people and processes in place.
Think about it, if they’re that dangerous how come I don’t need a haz-suit to get in it and drive, or have to put a cordon around it when I park it at Tesco’s?!
Accident damaged ones I can understand, especially if you need to work on HV components, but that’s the same in any industry. The aircraft at work have cordons around HV components, pressurised hydraulics, sharp pointy bits, you name it.
Last edited by Tooks; 14th January 2024 at 17:39.
First experience of a lengthy trip this weekend - 450 mile round trip.
In this weather my range is about 200. Very simple trip, one stop each way and a charge at hotel. Impressed with cars routing as well and adaptation of the range modes etc (I’d set minimum charge at destination and for home). But Jesus wept it’s expensive isn’t it. Cost me more this weekend than the previous 8 weeks/1800 miles (2 external charges, rest at home at 7.5p per kWh).
Glad I can charge at home.
What EV have you got again?
Public rapid charging has got pricey, the cost of building out the infrastructure though I suppose.
Which networks did you charge on?
Formula E have a quarantine area/procedure in place for cars with a problem/involved in a shunt. Once checked by the team tech's they are good to be removed/repaired etc.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I'm getting slightly obsessed with this but I've just found a couple of chargers in town (so open to the public) that are 20p/kWh. So within a mile of each other that's a choice of 20p, 44p or 85p.
I get that the 85p ones are super-quick but, in a world where people will choose one filling station over another if there's a difference of 1p/litre of diesel, how does this function as a market?
Yes, and sensible stuff. Electric vehicles with problems or having been involved in a shunt, they absolutely should be checked out, the same as any vehicle actually, especially with multiple airbags and potential leaking fuel systems.
I was never that kind of guy anyway, driving out of my way to save a pound or two on a fill up, but yes there are multiple operators with multiple pricing models in this relatively early stage of charging infrastructure.
There are a few membership schemes that work on many networks, Elli and Electroverse to name but 2.
With Elli, the most I get charged is 43p per kWh, which is great at the BP or She’ll rapids which are 85p per kWh if you just pay as you go. Ther is a subscription charge, but if you’re charging a lot on public chargers then it pays for itself.
It is a bit of a Wild West out there though.
There aren’t enough chargers for it to be a competitive market yet, so the charging companies have an effective monopoly in a particular area and can charge what they like.
There is also not enough focus in the media as to what people should be paying per kWh like there is for petrol and diesel. There’s uproar if the petrol stations don’t immediately drop their prices to respond to lower oil prices (often led by the likes of the AA and RAC), but silence with respect to charging prices even though the wholesale price of electricity has dropped significantly,
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They have a pretty reasoned and practiced rescue procedure for extricating drivers from the car.
Video below for anybody interested.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
A Taycan CT4.
Used Shell Recharge on way down, BP Pulse at hotel (I did have £27 credit from taking admiral insurance so charging there only ‘cost’ me £4) and coming back, Osprey at Brackley
I’ve got Porsche charging service which is supposed to give cheaper rates altho no longer at Shell but Osprey should have cost about £20-25 instead of the £40 it cost me (for 120 miles range). Have to phone tomorrow to check as both Shell and Osprey were the stations brought up on the routing as Porsche charging service (I was aware that Shell no longer worked tho).
Overall though a good, simple experience especially as the Taycan charges very quickly
With the charging service you get IONITY for £0.30 but wasn’t any on my route. Saying that may take a slight detour next time just to save money!
My best mate has a motor sport marshall business providing training via the MSA.
They’ve updated a lot of procedures to take account of HV components found in some racing cars, particularly the endurance racers with battery systems, and for the future EV classes both 2 and 4 wheels.
I think the Porsche charging service is actually a front end for Elli, which is the VAG umbrella company for all the marque charging services.
Worth checking with them, Osprey is one of the partner networks on your scheme.
The Taycan does charge quickly doesn’t it, I was at Blyth services last week next to a Taycan that had steam rising from the front drivers side wheel well. The driver was a bit concerned, but we agreed it was steam rather than smoke, and a quick google did confirm that some power electronics located in that area do get warm and they can steam after prolonged driving through heavy rain.
If they’re having the batteries powered down for high voltage work they should be cordoned off. If it is for routing servicing then no.
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Exactly, but once they’re powered down for specialist HV work and/or declared safe to work on by suitably qualified personnel, they’re just cars in a workshop.
Indeed but still only trained people can work on them.
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In fairness, I don’t want anybody untrained working on any car of mine. :-)
In a body shop, I want a painter painting it, not an EV technician etc.
Crikey - didn’t know that, at least I’ll know if happens to me! Bet it wad a worrying thing for them for a bit.
I nearly got a Mercedes EQC on a company car scheme but watched a video about charging speeds and it showed the quickness of the Taycan against the EQC. Was basically half the time and I completely changed my thinking. Been really impressed at the speed of it.
Thanks re Elli - actually downloaded the app on Friday as it was mentioned on another forum but haven’t set it up. Didn’t realise it was what you say tho. Will definitely look into this further - thanks 👍
The point i was trying to make is although once safe they are technically no different than any other vehicle is as much as brakes and suspension etc not anyone can work on it. They still need to be EVCP to be able to work on them. It means that training still has to be done to work on an EV which has been made safe.
I obviously understand the still need to be trained in as much as they need to be a qualified tech but that still isn’t enough
I got your point, mine was just to say that the accredited training required isn’t the enormously high barrier many seem to think it is.
It’s not much different to electricians who have had to undertake some CPD to fit EV charge points.
You’ll be familiar with the IMI, they seem to offer a 2 day course to get you the qualification you need to safely work on EVs/Hybrids, which is an ever increasing number of vehicles.
No Haynes manual yet then?
Unlike with diesel or petrol it's not quite like for like. If you need a charge they're pricing it on how long you are prepared to wait. Similar to car parking - usually the further away from the attraction, city centre etc the cheaper the price.
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Chicago's winter conditions are too much for Teslas. I heard the rumour eariier this week, but I had no facts to back it up. Yesterday I heard the news from people living there and today US media mention it as well.
E.g.: https://fortune.com/2024/01/17/chica...sla-elon-musk/
I've never been to Chicago in the winter, but I know a family from Münich who state that: "Chicago is colder than Münich - and it can be cold in Bavaria!"
Apparently if you let the vehicle know there's a charge in it's future then it preconditions the battery/engine ahead of time, one owner reporting 15 to 20 percent range drop in cold weather...phew always another compromise it seems with these newfangled vehicles...remember when the car signified personal freedom, the open road, just drive...
I like the fella´s forecast in conclusion,
You can be an EV driver in a cold-weather climate,” he said. “Be optimistic and excited about what the future holds because it’s only going to get better from here.”
Blatant attempt to rev up the saps about the future struggling with their finnicky electric cars in the present
Even CBS has it: https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news...s-deep-freeze/
My wife drives a hybrid (not plug in) Honda and when I took the car in for a service this morning, we discussed the cold weather situation. The guy behind the counter at the dealer's confirmed the 20% radius loss. Moderate sub-zero temps like we have here now (-5C) are already taking their toll on the capacity.
On the other hand, it's a new technology. We expect that to be perfect from the word 'go'. But like fuel and diesel engines, there's always a set-back. I remember that I had to fill the tank of my Peugeot 306 Diesel with a few % two-stroke fuel before filling up with diesel. That was in 1997. My parents had a a W123 Mercedes 200D in the 70s. That -expensive- car was dead in the garage during the 1979 winter with -27C
The only cars that always sprung to life and kept on running were my Saab 96s and 99s. Still, you needed to adjust the carb a little ('richer') before the cold set in. But then the g'box oil in the 96 was so thick that you needed to negotiate the gearshift carefully through the gears.
Last edited by thieuster; 18th January 2024 at 09:13.
As a household that has both a Tesla and a VW EV, it’s obvious which one has been designed with winter weather in mind. The VWs doors haven’t ever frozen shut, nor the door handles.
That said, both work absolutely fine as cars in whatever weather, with 250+ miles of range they cover al our needs, it’s just not something we even think much about now, as it should be.
A bit of pre-heating from the App whilst you have your morning coffee, all defrosted and ready to go whenever you’re ready.
Last edited by Tooks; 18th January 2024 at 09:20.
"Dead batteries in are likewise a problem in traditional cars with internal combustion engines."
Let's not cherry pick from the article to support a particular agenda.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Minus 4 here this morning, I charged the car last night on the drive and heated it 15 minutes before I left the house today. Used about 4% of the battery (I could have left it plugged in last night but couldn’t be bothered once it was charged) but seeing as I’m driving 14 miles to work and back it’s a total non issue in my circumstances. It was nice to step into a warm and totally defrosted car. For me today it was a total non issue. I’ve only had the car since the beginning of December so all I’m used to is the cold weather range, which having done my research (which is sensible before such a large purchase) hasn’t come as a surprise. In fact, the only thing that has surprised me is how easy the charging, driving and home charging process has been. It’s no more difficult than my iPhone. Frankly if I lived in Chicago I wouldn’t have bought an EV - I guess they didn’t do their research. Isn’t that what the internet and (car) forums like this are for after all?
We only had 14% battery this morning, so the pre heat didn't automatically kick in.
Schoolboy error!
Glad it´s a non issue for you, though minus 4´s nothing really in low temp terms.
A while ago I mentioned in the thread how a friend from upstate NY, another cold winters place, reckoned EV´s up his way just less viable...the cold, the inability to carry a can of spare electrickery.
I’m not sure a mild hybrid is representative of a full EV? What electric range does it have? Even a few percent loss in that is going to be noticeable.
You can believe the ‘guy behind the counter’ or you can listen to people who actually drive them day in and day out. 20% loss would be at the extreme end of things, and it would have to be brutally cold. I drove up through Cumbria last Tuesday evening, in the snow and rain and sub zero temps. My consumption was as high as I’ve seen it, 2.9 miles per kWh, which is around 15% higher consumption than the same trips in ‘normal’ temps. EVs are not new technology, I’ve had one in some shape or form for a decade now, but they have got better over that time for sure.
You mentioned Munich earlier, I was living and working there in the 90s, over winter and coincidentally also driving a Peugeot 306 Turbo Diesel, I never added anything to the fuel and it never missed a beat.
Anybody who doubts the viability of EVs in winter climates just needs to look at Norway. How do they cope.
I’m just loading the car up for my trip home, it’s showing -7c on the dash, there’s thick frost and snow sitting on it.
Pray for me…
If it isn't a particularly old vehicle then 20% range loss at -5°C indicates either a fault or BS.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Tooks, please can I just check the numbers on something...IF my hypothetical approaching 10 year old average EV which started life with a quoted 200 miles of range, were to experience a week long blast of sub zero weather what kinda range would it really offer me? 100, 120 miles perhaps would you think?
Thoughts and prayers mate...Fortunately it´s a smallish, densely populated country and minus 7´s pretty balmy really...
Last edited by Passenger; 18th January 2024 at 09:53.
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