Electric cars-got to be a viable option now?

[Mj2k]

Currently spending some time in Cannes where the film festival is just starting
I see BMW is a major Sponsor, making 200 all electric vehicles available .
Went for a long walk last evening along the coast and in one of the marina car parks, found their base for the event.
Along with 8 large MAN (Volkswagen) turbo diesel generating sets parked up connected to the biggest bank of charging points you’ve ever seen
I’ve worked in and around that type of kit all my life and I’d reckon on about 4mw of diesel power generation there.
The irony was not lost…
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/globa...al?language=en

Unbelievable really, makes an utter mockery.

[Franky Four Fingers]

I was looking at an EV post on FB a few days ago, cant quite rememberer what for, possibly a new Skoda electric car but the EV hatred is strong on there. One guy was saying that his BMW 7 series which was produced in 1987 will be far better for the planet over those 36 years than any EV will be.
He based this purely on the raw materials used and didn't give one thought that once the vehicle is made its zero emissions, well apart from a bit of tyre dust. Completely missed the fact that they would have hardly given 2 hoots about his 1987 BMW production, the materials used and the manner they were produced. Also missed the fact that his 3.5 LTR thumper had been banging out crap for 36 years.
I dont understand why people dont get that as soon as these EVs are made they are instantly better for our environment.

[Dave+63]

It’s often said that it’s better to keep an older car and run it into the ground before replacing it. This also is not necessarily true though.

Take a car producing 150g/km of CO2 and an EV which has produced 26 tonnes in its manufacture.

26,000/0.15 = 173,333 km = 108,333 miles.

Obviously lower emission cars would be a higher mileage figure whilst larger, more polluting vehicles would be less.

[Time Cat]

It’s often said that it’s better to keep an older car and run it into the ground before replacing it. This also is not necessarily true though.

Take a car producing 150g/km of CO2 and an EV which has produced 26 tonnes in its manufacture.

26,000/0.15 = 173,333 km = 108,333 miles.

Obviously lower emission cars would be a higher mileage figure whilst larger, more polluting vehicles would be less.

The power has to be produced first in order to supply an EV?

Something else. In the Netherlands we seem
To reached the max capacity of the electric net. Loading stations can’t be build and loading speed in some places is halfed in the night to prevent going pitch black. This is a serious problem, as the net needs replacement.

I doubt ev’s is going to be so big. There is simply no room on the net for them.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

I was looking at an EV post on FB a few days ago, cant quite rememberer what for, possibly a new Skoda electric car but the EV hatred is strong on there. One guy was saying that his BMW 7 series which was produced in 1987 will be far better for the planet over those 36 years than any EV will be.
He based this purely on the raw materials used and didn't give one thought that once the vehicle is made its zero emissions, well apart from a bit of tyre dust. Completely missed the fact that they would have hardly given 2 hoots about his 1987 BMW production, the materials used and the manner they were produced. Also missed the fact that his 3.5 LTR thumper had been banging out crap for 36 years.
I dont understand why people dont get that as soon as these EVs are made they are instantly better for our environment.

The world cannot mine itself out of the situation.

[Middo]

EVs will and are getting better all the time. What also needs to improve is the UKs power grid the whole HV / LV network is way behind and needs major funding to catch up and then keep up with demand. Not just for EVs but for renewable energy harvesting and new builds to make use of solar and wind.

As per the post above it’s not just a UK issue and the global leaders need to get on top of it.

[Tooks]

The world cannot mine itself out of the situation.

Nor can it drill and burn its way out of it.

[Saint-Just]

It’s often said that it’s better to keep an older car and run it into the ground before replacing it. This also is not necessarily true though.

Take a car producing 150g/km of CO2 and an EV which has produced 26 tonnes in its manufacture.

26,000/0.15 = 173,333 km = 108,333 miles.

Obviously lower emission cars would be a higher mileage figure whilst larger, more polluting vehicles would be less.

Well, not exactly.
Manufacturing the ICE car also produced a fair bit of CO2 so the cut-off point is significantly lower.
Also, you assume that the electricity used only comes from renewables (no CO2 emission), which may well be the case in the future but not quite yet.

[Kingstepper]

Well, not exactly.
Manufacturing the ICE car also produced a fair bit of CO2 so the cut-off point is significantly lower.
Also, you assume that the electricity used only comes from renewables (no CO2 emission), which may well be the case in the future but not quite yet.

CO2 producing the ICE is irrelevant in the choice between keeping an old car and buying a new EV.
Obviously should be considered when comparing new cars.

[Franky Four Fingers]

The world cannot mine itself out of the situation.

Indeed but batteries can be recycled, petrol and diesel cannot


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[Dave+63]

Well, not exactly.
Manufacturing the ICE car also produced a fair bit of CO2 so the cut-off point is significantly lower.
Also, you assume that the electricity used only comes from renewables (no CO2 emission), which may well be the case in the future but not quite yet.

I wasn’t comparing new cars Marc, it was a response to the comments that it’s better to keep an older car on the road than buy a new EV, which is not always the case.

The arguments have already been made regarding new cars.

Even adding in the carbon cost of producing electricity, there will still be a crossover point where a new EV still works out better than keeping an older car running although the mileage that the older car has to do before break even will be significantly higher. It’s probably a moot point but it isn’t necessarily always best to keep an older car in the road.

[Saint-Just]

CO2 producing the ICE is irrelevant in the choice between keeping an old car and buying a new EV.
Obviously should be considered when comparing new cars.

I understand that but still dispute it (mildly): when you run your car into the ground, no one benefits from it after you whereas when you sell it to buy an EV, you're selling it to someone who needs a car anyway and would have bought either ICE or EV (we're keeping budget considerations out of the equation). So the real CO2 cost of running your car into the ground is the CO2 emission from the engine + the CO2 cost in manufacturing the other car (even if he purchased 2nd hand as the same conundrum is created). I therefore find it simpler to consider the manufacturing cost of both cars from the get go.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Well, not exactly.
Manufacturing the ICE car also produced a fair bit of CO2 so the cut-off point is significantly lower.
Also, you assume that the electricity used only comes from renewables (no CO2 emission), which may well be the case in the future but not quite yet.

Indeed - very dependant on how the electricity is produced.

I am not against EV's but I still don't see them as the solution that many seem to think.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Currently spending some time in Cannes where the film festival is just starting
I see BMW is a major Sponsor, making 200 all electric vehicles available .
Went for a long walk last evening along the coast and in one of the marina car parks, found their base for the event.
Along with 8 large MAN (Volkswagen) turbo diesel generating sets parked up connected to the biggest bank of charging points you’ve ever seen
I’ve worked in and around that type of kit all my life and I’d reckon on about 4mw of diesel power generation there.
The irony was not lost…
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/globa...al?language=en

It was the same at the 'Climate Summit' in Scotland. Much a to do was made of the fact that 100% EV buses were being used to transport delegates to and from hotels etc. In reality there were some very large diesel KVa generators tucked away that were used to keep them charged.

[Saint-Just]

Indeed - very dependant on how the electricity is produced.

I am not against EV's but I still don't see them as the solution that many seem to think.

It is definitely A solution, but many others need to be developed.
As highlighted in the Dutch example a few posts up, electricity production and distribution would need to be scaled up very significantly across Europe and the US.
Hydrogen fuel cells are great but producing H2 is very power hungry, and there is no distribution network in place
Motorways could supply overhead power to HGV, minimising the battery size they need to get to their destination off the M-way
France is starting to revive an old concept of sleeper train + car, where you load your car on departure, get a night sleep and wake up in the morning near your destination. Shuttles like the Eurotunnel one (now Le Shuttle ) could be extended to non-overnight journeys.
But ICE will remain a long time until we solve all the above or limit access to private transport.

[sweets]

It was the same at the 'Climate Summit' in Scotland. Much a to do was made of the fact that 100% EV buses were being used to transport delegates to and from hotels etc. In reality there were some very large diesel KVa generators tucked away that were used to keep them charged.

You're deliberately not mentioning that the generators were powered with veg oil? Which they were.
You're right, it was a bad "optic" to to use electric buses when the charging infrastructure was not present to charge them properly.
And even worse to try and publicise the green use when compromises were being made, but they were still powered by non-fossil fuel.

But buses are one of the few types of transport that could very effectively be electric powered, as they do relatively low mileage, with lots of start-stop, and are inactive overnight.
All they need is effective charging in depot, which, when you congregate a lot of buses together, would be fairly power hungry and hard to do.
So you can see why, without proper planning, the mistake was made.

[Middo]

Liverpool have just put 20 hydrogen double decker into service

[Time Cat]

It is definitely A solution, but many others need to be developed.
As highlighted in the Dutch example a few posts up, electricity production and distribution would need to be scaled up very significantly across Europe and the US.
Hydrogen fuel cells are great but producing H2 is very power hungry, and there is no distribution network in place
Motorways could supply overhead power to HGV, minimising the battery size they need to get to their destination off the M-way
France is starting to revive an old concept of sleeper train + car, where you load your car on departure, get a night sleep and wake up in the morning near your destination. Shuttles like the Eurotunnel one (now Le Shuttle ) could be extended to non-overnight journeys.
But ICE will remain a long time until we solve all the above or limit access to private transport.

Distribution is even more complicated. The grid power cables can’t handle the demand. The current grid and all the lines in the ground needs replacement for bigger and thicker cables. Not only a big big money problem but also practical.

I don’t see how this can be solved…

[jaytip]

Distribution is even more complicated. The grid power cables can’t handle the demand. The current grid and all the lines in the ground needs replacement for bigger and thicker cables. Not only a big big money problem but also practical.

I don’t see how this can be solved…

Can you provide a link to this please. I watched a video on YouTube a while back where Chris Harris was interviewing one of the big guns at the national grid and he made zero mention of this.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

You're deliberately not mentioning that the generators were powered with veg oil? Which they were.
You're right, it was a bad "optic" to to use electric buses when the charging infrastructure was not present to charge them properly.
And even worse to try and publicise the green use when compromises were being made, but they were still powered by non-fossil fuel.

But buses are one of the few types of transport that could very effectively be electric powered, as they do relatively low mileage, with lots of start-stop, and are inactive overnight.
All they need is effective charging in depot, which, when you congregate a lot of buses together, would be fairly power hungry and hard to do.
So you can see why, without proper planning, the mistake was made.

Not deliberately, HVO use in generators is increasing but it's still an ICE albeit with reduced emissions.

[StackH]

Distribution is even more complicated. The grid power cables can’t handle the demand. The current grid and all the lines in the ground needs replacement for bigger and thicker cables. Not only a big big money problem but also practical.

I don’t see how this can be solved…

National Grid have already addressed that: https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories...misconceptions

[Captain Morgan]

National Grid have already addressed that: https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories...misconceptions

Not necessarily in the Netherlands where Time Cat is located though.

[g40steve]

[QUOTE=StackH;6210870]National Grid have already addressed that: https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories...misconceptions[/QUOTE

Is this UK or US?

[Tooks]

[QUOTE=g40steve;6210923]

National Grid have already addressed that: https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories...misconceptions[/QUOTE

Is this UK or US?

It’s both, some of the links in the article focus on the U.K. as well.

This Forbes article has some more logic behind the position.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmo...er-management/

The main thing to keep in mind that come 2035, if that date doesn’t move to the right, it won’t be 32m EVs on the road, it’s a gradual transition to be measured over decades.

Existing ICE cars aren’t banned from 2035, just the sale of new ones.

[Tooks]

Distribution is even more complicated. The grid power cables can’t handle the demand. The current grid and all the lines in the ground needs replacement for bigger and thicker cables. Not only a big big money problem but also practical.

I don’t see how this can be solved…

The grid cables have to be replaced from time to time anyway, just like your house wiring. The cables are being replaced constantly in rotation, they’ll be replaced with higher capacity ones.

It’s a challenge, sure, but then lots of things are for our planet, but it needs to be done along with a raft of other stuff.

[Franky Four Fingers]

Makes you think how far down the line we’d now be if electric cars took off back in the late 1800s. Whether or not wed have fudged the world or not going down the electric route?

[eagletower]

I’d love the idea of not owning a car , just having teslas / any self driving car on the road which you can summon and self
Drive you where you need to go. No need to own it when it’s sit 95% of the time on your drive doing nothing .

[Middo]

I’d love the idea of not owning a car , just having teslas / any self driving car on the road which you can summon and self
Drive you where you need to go. No need to own it when it’s sit 95% of the time on your drive doing nothing .

Rental car share clubs already exist.

[StackH]

Not necessarily in the Netherlands where Time Cat is located though.

Ah, yes - hadn't noticed the poster's location. Apologies. Hopefully the link will be useful to those of us in the UK.

[jaytip]

Rental car share clubs already exist.

And taxis.

[Middo]

And taxis.

What’s next efficient clean and reliable public transportation?

[jamiej]

I find the conversation interesting but frankly not really worth the air space.

Lots of EVs are bought for tax reasons or the perceived lower running costs.

The emissions, I expect are not much of a concern.

Those who really truly care about the environment need to to change their focus from which EV should I buy to, I will never fly on a plane again, I will never eat meat again, I will go to India and China and explain to them the importance of being greener.

Sadly buying an EV is not really doing much, no more so than changing your light bulbs ... Which again, we all do to save costs.

In my opinion

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[Franky Four Fingers]

I find the conversation interesting but frankly not really worth the air space.

Lots of EVs are bought for tax reasons or the perceived lower running costs.

The emissions, I expect are not much of a concern.

Those who really truly care about the environment need to to change their focus from which EV should I buy to, I will never fly on a plane again, I will never eat meat again, I will go to India and China and explain to them the importance of being greener.

Sadly buying an EV is not really doing much, no more so than changing your light bulbs ... Which again, we all do to save costs.

In my opinion

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

Whats not worth the air space?

[jamiej]

The discussion surrounding the green credentials of EV cars. Which seemed to be the tangent this chat had taken.

If EV suits your requirements, then of course, makes perfect sense.

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[Tooks]

Those who really truly care about the environment need to to change their focus from which EV should I buy to, I will never fly on a plane again, I will never eat meat again, I will go to India and China and explain to them the importance of being greener.

Yep, the way most of us live is unsustainable, some more so than others.

I’ve not flown anywhere for a good 6 years, and that was to Germany. I do the same trip in an EV now, takes me longer of course, but it’s more relaxing and I get to meet nice people along the way.

Sadly buying an EV is not really doing much, no more so than changing your light bulbs ... Which again, we all do to save costs.

In my opinion

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The move to energy saving light bulbs has actually meant a massive reduction in energy demand across the world for lighting, along with LED monitors/TVs and a host of other lower consumption things. Little things done by millions of people add up to big things.

https://rapidtransition.org/stories/...ient-lighting/

At first LED light bulbs were expensive, and dimmer than incandescent bulbs, and the transition was slow, but now they’re commonplace. It was a combination of legislation and reduced cost/better product that has helped the transition. Sound familiar?!

[Captain Morgan]

The discussion surrounding the green credentials of EV cars. Which seemed to be the tangent this chat had taken.

If EV suits your requirements, then of course, makes perfect sense.

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Don’t go near the pizza thread then, there are members who dear to no only use yeast to home prove dough but the scallywags then use wood to cook the pizza on…

[Franky Four Fingers]

https://www.renault.co.uk/concept-ca...-electric.html

Not a Renault fan but i like the look of that.

[cyrusir]

https://www.renault.co.uk/concept-ca...-electric.html

Not a Renault fan but i like the look of that.

That's very cool

[Passenger]

Agree does look appealing, now when they can just get the price s down into realistic territory, could be a winner like the earlier model...''an all-electric car for all people'' as their copy promises.

[Middo]

https://www.renault.co.uk/concept-ca...-electric.html

Not a Renault fan but i like the look of that.

Im a fan of that, very gordini….

[reggie747]

Agree does look appealing, now when they can just get the price s down into realistic territory, could be a winner like the earlier model...''an all-electric car for all people'' as their copy promises.

What price guess you putting on that ? I'll go with 30k+ as a starter....

[Passenger]

What price guess you putting on that ? I'll go with 30k+ as a starter....

Sadly reckon you're right, doesn't their electric Zoe start at 29K...It's too much. It would be great if someone could do a car that had iterations from bare minimum tech/ no frills and then on upwards, which was kinda what they did with the original Renault 5's I think...you'd think the super mini category potentially being lightish would really lend itself to such an ethos...''A car for all the people'' Nope only those with at least 30 large to spend... but really what do I know, not that much of a car guy... Cars especially if you want to drive the future are again Luxury items I guess...Gonna keep the small engine Skoda for the mid/ long term, saves putting yet another car on the road, continue watching developments.

[reggie747]

Sadly reckon you're right, doesn't their electric Zoe start at 29K...It's too much. It would be great if someone could do a car that had iterations from bare minimum tech/ no frills and then on upwards, which was kinda what they did with the original Renault 5's I think...you'd think the super mini category potentially being lightish would really lend itself to such an ethos...''A car for all the people'' Nope only those with at least 30 large to spend... but really what do I know, not that much of a car guy... Cars especially if you want to drive the future are again Luxury items I guess...Gonna keep the small engine Skoda for the mid/ long term, saves putting yet another car on the road, continue watching developments.

It's just industry greed, all the time. They get together with all the other car makers to discuss where to drop it in.
"No, you can't price it like that, it's way too cheap and we'll all lose out"

[Passenger]

It's just industry greed, all the time. They get together with all the other car makers to discuss where to drop it in.
"No, you can't price it like that, it's way too cheap and we'll all lose out"

Exactly greed/ greedflation, only course of action don't play, leastways postpone playing their game, it's tiresome and predictable, and only encourages them,...or shanks' pony.

[Taxboy]

No further Tesla Model S or X in rhd form

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...l-x-sales-stop

I do wonder if Tesla will be caught up by the mainstream manufacturers in the next few years. My impression is that when launched Tesla's electric tech was ahead of the competition but that the cars build quality and design would not be acceptable to buyers if they had been ICE. It seems to me that car manufacturers are starting to catch up on the tech front but already have years of experience regarding car design itself

Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk

[Passenger]

No further Tesla Model S or X in rhd form

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...l-x-sales-stop

I do wonder if Tesla will be caught up by the mainstream manufacturers in the next few years. My impression is that when launched Tesla's electric tech was ahead of the competition but that the cars build quality and design would not be acceptable to buyers if they had been ICE. It seems to me that car manufacturers are starting to catch up on the tech front but already have years of experience regarding car design itself

Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk

In a nutshell innit?

[ryanb741]

No further Tesla Model S or X in rhd form

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...l-x-sales-stop

I do wonder if Tesla will be caught up by the mainstream manufacturers in the next few years. My impression is that when launched Tesla's electric tech was ahead of the competition but that the cars build quality and design would not be acceptable to buyers if they had been ICE. It seems to me that car manufacturers are starting to catch up on the tech front but already have years of experience regarding car design itself

Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk

Its to enable Tesla to manufacture more 3 and Y models which is the core market. S and X are largely £100k cars with a much smaller audience and more compelling competition in that segment (eg Taycan and the high end E Tron) whereas there still isn't a peer for the Y and 3 in the mid range niche, plus new new Model 3 launches in October and they'll be ramping production for that as it will no doubt sell like hotcakes

[wileeeeeey]

Tesla just isn’t a real car company.

You can pull the wool at 40k. Not so much at 100k. They got away with as an immature company selling kool aid with enthusiasts cutting a lot of slack but those days are done.

Cutting production on the S and X but the Cyber Truck is full steam ahead? The guy is a hype chaser.

[Dave+63]

He’s not cutting production, just dropping the RHD models.
One benefit for some is that the Plaid spec will now be available to UK buyers.

200mph and sub 2.0 sec 0-60mph here we come. And all for £115k

[wileeeeeey]

200mph with the steering wheel on the wrong side and straight into a tree. All for £115k.

Why divorce your husband when you can just encourage him to buy a Model S Plaid and tell him he drives like a pussy?