Reply With QuoteYes, but I was answering the point about solar panel clad EVs with no external power supply. Presumably yours were on a roof at your home?Originally Posted by gunner
Lowest price brand new car on Autotrader is the Corsa E at under £20k.
No one is asking you to change to EV though, you do what you want (as we all do).
I’m just trying to point out that there are positives too and some of the negatives also apply to ICE vehicles too.
Yes, but I was answering the point about solar panel clad EVs with no external power supply. Presumably yours were on a roof at your home?
Ah, I see. Yes, car mounted panels will only ever be a top up solution.
Not wishing to sound like a neanderthal but I'm not sure I get the BIK benefits?
As a 40% tax earner, throwing 25% of my salary into pension, am I going to benefit greatly but getting a company car? I've never had one. There seems to be some SUPER deals on Mercedes cars at the moment.
For example "Mercedes-benz EQA Hatchback EQA 250+ 140kW AMG Line Executive 70.5kWh 5Dr Auto" for £394 net. Does the BIK at 2% mean I'm paying 2% tax instead of 40% tax, or am I completely off the mark??
Of course...though a corsa wouldn´t do, wifeys health issues make the conventional car seat height uncomfortable, SUV type ev req´d as a comparable hence 35k guess...and I couldn´t buy Chinese made for reasons of conscience. I´m not seeking to suggest ICE don´t have their negatives, just speaking of personal views-situation, as we all do.
Last edited by Passenger; 11th January 2024 at 12:47.
The 2% BIK means you effectively pay for the lease out of your gross salary rather than your net.
Yep, the personal view/needs is where it starts and ends for most people.
Over 5 years and 125k miles, I won’t burn 3500 gallons of petrol, and net save around £17k in the process (on a like for like size and performance car) even at todays lowish fuel prices. Maintenance cost will be much lower as well. A lot of those miles are for work purposes, and I’m able to claim those back at HMRC rates.
It does put some perspective on the up front costs of buying an EV (I’m a private buyer here), although obviously that changes depending on your own circumstances and how you use a car.
As indicated still ev curious here, when it´s time to change car likely 3 to5 years we´ll evaluate it along with solar options for domestic use, take a holistic view, see if there´s any ´bribes´ available.
Ah yes, a solar setup somewhere warm and sunny like Spain would be my EV nirvana! :-D
My neighbour manufacturers solar car ports for business and domestic use, he’s doing quite a bit of work in Spain, a lot of interest apparently. Are the Spanish government offering grants for that sort of setup or built it into planning regs etc?
No idea domestically yet, though I've one mate told me his domestic use is free iirc, I'd guess it 'll be panels on his beach house , not his appt in the City, the roof space'll be insufficient, that'd scupper a lot of town dwellers...though much of the new commercial/ industrial build does mostly/always seem to feature panels, just from noticing while driving by...plenty of panel farms...obvs the weather, whole regions not densely populated, no brainer.
Last edited by Passenger; 11th January 2024 at 13:54.
The BIK means they "add" 50k (list price of the car) to your salary (every year) but you (currently) only pay tax on 2% of it so it effectively adds 1000 to your salary that you will pay tax on.
As you are paying the lease out of your income (pre tax) the 400 lease per month effectively costs you 240 of your take home pay (assuming the 400 a month keeps you in the 40% bracket).
If you look what you could lease after tax for 240 a month it is a very cost effective way of driving a brand new car.
Of course you might prefer to spend 3k a year of your own money on the car of your choice.
Bear in mind the BIK increases by 1% each year now so the 1000 will become about 3000 by the end of the lease that you will pay tax on.
I know that the BIK increased yearly from 0% to 2% but I hadn’t heard that they had started increasing it yearly from the 2%.
When was test announced?
Worth also bearing in mind that the lease cost for company cars also normally includes maintenance insurance, tyres…. everything, so works out well if you are a 40 or 45% tax payer and a total no brainer if you happen to be in the £125k salary range where your marginal rate is an effective 60%
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It’s staying at 2% until 2025. Then going up in 1% increments to 5% by 2028.
Thanks for that, I hadn’t read about it, presumably they sneaked it in when they announced the removal of the £0 RFL band. 5% is still cheap in comparison to ICE though.
Is this a sign of things to come or just a blip?
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/11/b...ing/index.html
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
As a private buyer without home charging facilities I’ll stick to my hybrid Toyota. The surcharge for ev is too high to warrant it + I’d be dead before I recoup the extra outlay.
When Toyota release their solid state battery which they say can be charged in less than 15min + has a range of 600 miles I’ll reconsider.
I’m not sure that a rental companies business decisions are a major indicator of EV direction of travel generally?
It seems to be more a Tesla pricing and US market story to be fair.
It’s also fair to say that early adoption of EVs here and elsewhere is probably at a peak, and it will be slower steadier growth from here on in.
Certainly used Tesla and other EV prices have come down to more sensible levels now, which is surely good news and what everybody was clamouring for too.
Hertz will still have some fun writing down the cost of the ‘losses’ they’ve made on their Tesla fleet against tax due, so I’m not getting a violin out just yet.
Just a blip.
As the article (and Tooks) explains, it’s a business decision based on the current market conditions. The price of new EVs will only decrease for s limited time, once that stops, EVs will depreciate in the same manner as ICE and businesses such as Hertz will be able to once again, actually predict with some certainty, future values of their stock.
There is also no reason for repair costs for EVs to be any higher than that for ICE.
That’s simply not true at the moment. There are plenty of reasons which may or may not continue.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/ev-r...r%20composites.
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/lat...ice-equivalent
I think a lot of the stuff in those reports is fair comment, we are introducing ‘new’ technologies into a vehicle repair industry that isn’t yet setup for repairing electric vehicles.
That should change though, and in the meantime I’m ok with companies being cautious around battery damage, they’ve still got a second life even when compromised.
I drive an E-nv200 which is almost identical to the nv200 diesel. It has been written off this month due to an old guy running into the offside rear. The damage was bumper, door, rear panel and tail light. When labour, paint and courtesy vehicle are added into the mix, the cost of repair exceeds the value of the vehicle.
The ONLY part that differs from the diesel version is the tail light which is about £50 more expensive.
Granted, in larger collisions, where major parts such as the battery are damaged, the situation is different.
Hampstead has a load of these in the back streets https://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/traff...arging-points/. Seems a pretty clever idea as they are flush with the pavement and the tower bit is what you have in your car. Not sure what the costs is but whenever I’ve been there for a walk on the heath lots are in use.
They look really good, I wonder how much they cost to install though?!?!? I guess it’s a posh area with multimillion pound houses - most of which don’t feature a drive or a parking space - heaving with brand new cars so they’ve found a solution.
I suppose once installed bar maintenance that’s pretty much it, and you can recoup the cost through charger use?
It’s my understanding that most purpose built EV’s have the battery at the very base of the car, so any prang that damages that area - sills would be really vulnerable I imagine - is very expensive to repair. Maybe even a write-off situation?
Whilst most EVs designed from the ‘ground up’ do have skateboard style chassis, the sills etc are all high strength steel and like all new cars they have to pass the NCAP side impact tests.
Anything like the NCAP post side impact test would write the car off regardless of what is powering it. Sill bodywork is just like a bumper cover, so cosmetic, more serious structural damage would be a complex and costly repair on any modern car.
The issue with a lot of insurance repair centres currently is they have little or no training or procedures to deal with the high voltage side of things, should they need to disconnect it/make safe/move components to undertake a repair.
Thanks for that info - it seems we’re just in the relatively early stages of transitioning from ICE to EV (or whatever other alternative the EV naysayers can see in their crystal balls) and this is an inevitable consequence. Lots of everyday garage mechanic skills will become defunct or niche and it’ll boil down to bodywork specialists and EV electricians?
Also remember that, in theory, and EV needs a lot less regular maintenance so it's going to change the way garages work at some point too.
Service schedule for i3 is basically the dealer doing the equivalent of an MOT checking things, changing the brake fluid every 2 years (didn't it used to be 5 years in piston cars?) and changing internal cabin filter. Local dealer says they literally see them every 2 years and never between services.
Absolutely not, EV's require additional skills for sure in respect of high voltage systems and drivetrain. The 'everyday' mechanic skills will mostly be required for a very long time to come.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Yes, agreed, there’s still plenty of traditional ‘oily bits’ on EVs to keep a mechanic gainfully employed as well.
They still have transfer boxes, drive shafts, CV joints, steering racks, hubs, ball joints, suspension and brake components, ARBs etc etc.
given toyotas track record a lot of us will be dead before we see that tech.
Potentially less to do less often though? And possibly with an additional requirement for tech people to keep the software humming along as they age?
Yes, also agreed! Servicing requirements are less onerous on EVs, no oil/filter or spark plug changes, just ‘inspections’ for brake pads, brake fluid and tyres etc. Software updates as required, but the ‘oily bits’ should be years before requiring attention.
Only things less would be oil/filters and less regular brake components, rest of the stuff needs regular inspection etc.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I’m not trying to be argumentative - but I thought the service intervals on EV’s were considerably longer than ICE cars? And my son - who runs older cars than I for financial reasons - has spent a fair bit of money on engine and exhaust related issues, faulty sensors etc on his last couple of cars, I’ve had friends whose cars have needed new catalytic converters - even simple
Stuff like lightbulbs (I’ve had cars that needed the bumper or a wheel off to access them) is not an issue I’ve had on any cars with LED headlights. Are there companies out there who can do the equivalent of tuning an EV to squeeze out more power or re-map them? And replacing the in car entertainment when it’s incorporated into the screen is probably almost impossible. I’m thinking of all the back street specialists more than the big boys. It just seems like a lot of the ‘professional tinkerers’ will have less to tinker with?!
I think the back street tinkerers will find a way as time goes on. Ive only got 8-10 years tops left in this game so it wont bother me but if garages are going to survive they will need to adapt. That will just happen organically as tech changes and the skill sets of the garages changes in response.
EVs definitely require less maintenance than an equivalent ICE car, but they’re not totally maintenance free, like everything that has mechanics.
Definitely an issue for the shiny steel and glass dealerships business models though, and things will change.
What do people make of all the Chinese cars coming to market in 2024 in terms of impact on price?
I had my Model 3 Performance for three years from new, 40k miles and my servicing/repair costs were ZERO. I did put four new tyres on.
Pitch
Yes, and likewise our 2.5 year old M3 hasn’t required any maintenance either, but at some point all cars will require some attention, brake fluid check/change for example.
As they get older they’ll need attention to things like wheel bearings and brakes will need replacing etc.
The first 3 years isn’t typical for the rest of the life of the car.
There is a big difference between servicing and maintenance; both ICE and EVs will need to be maintained but only ICE needs regular servicing as we generally know it.
Yes, good point Dave, and makes more sense when you put it like that.
G&D so I will restrict myself to saying that I try to avoid, as much as possible, financially enriching China.
Amen brother.
Elno on the list as well.
We are what we eat, purchase.
Last edited by Passenger; 13th January 2024 at 13:12.
It would be crazy to think an EV would not have any maintenance costs during its life and of course there will be drivetrain and brakes to maintain. What I was alluding to was in the first three years there costs were ZERO. My previous umpteenth new cars cost me hundreds, possibly thousands in the first three years and 40k miles.
Pitch
Yikes to your final point, thousands! in 1st 3 years...were they ´luxury´ vehicles perchance...
Not really, I think the Q7 and XC90 were the pricey ones with miles.
I forked out £159 for the Nissan service because it’s a condition of the warranty. It was basically an MOT. Changed the front tyres at 25k miles, standard Michelins so that wasn’t too painful either.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
I did the same until the warranty expired. At that time it also included breakdown cover and recovery should you run the battery to zero.
I thought they, Audi´s and Volvo´s were considered luxury brands, like say Mercs...I mean bar likes of Rollers and Bentleys and the exotic hypercar stuff, ain´t they luxury for the uppers and upper mids...the sort of cars that the Skoda, Toyota, Peugeot buyers are meant to aspire to, lust for!
I could be wrong, cars not so much my thing.
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