Reply With QuoteThat was quite interesting Rob.
I was surprised at the similar costs of only a 30mpg car to the Tesla Supercharging costs though. I appreciate that the US is a lot cheaper for fuel than the UK though.
This video might be of some relevance, even though it's from the US:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UskzfQJt2Bc
Rob.
That was quite interesting Rob.
I was surprised at the similar costs of only a 30mpg car to the Tesla Supercharging costs though. I appreciate that the US is a lot cheaper for fuel than the UK though.
It's just a matter of time...
The weather certainly has a knock on the range of an EV and I have noticed this over the past few weeks.
Having said this the cost is still ridiculously cheap compared to an ICE cars I have had and thats without factoring in what this performance would cost to initially purchase and then fuel, it is simply mad. Also add in or take off, servicing, RFL and other benefits.
It is very cheap motoring.
Pitch
Just a little update.
Ive ordered the E - 208.
It looks quite snazzy and im looking forward to using it.
I will update accordingly when it arrives
Mark
I will be j here’s yes HK head how you get on with it
Hope you enjoy the e208, a car on my radar but fancy a Mini e. As others have said an electric car in real world terms and at normal road speeds is fantastic. On paper the Mini f56 Cooper S 210 I had might be 1 second to 60 quicker than the Mini e, but the electric Mini had better traction and roll on acceleration was amazing making it feel faster in real world terms, plus better drivability. Enjoy. I’ve always been a bit of a petrolhead but I’m a convert to PHEV and electric.
I don't understand the very cheap motoring comment TBH, not if you take the overall cost of the car ownership. A £600/month lease or £60K purchase price (or whatever they are) certainly doesn't make for cheap motoring. Maybe in comparison to what you have driven before but in the real world certainly not.Originally Posted by Pitch3110
Agree with the last comment, depreciation is the biggest expense regardless of whether the vehicle is bought or leased, if someone’s intending to drive around in a car costing 50-60k they’re the one paying the high rate of depreciation so the addition fuel cost almost pales into insignificance!
Very few people really care about the environmental aspects of car ownership, cost is the biggest factor and unless the car’s old (like mine) depreciation is the largest element of cost.
My daughter put a deposit down in an E-2008 but ended up with an MG ZS EV; she’s very happy with it.
How come she changed her mind, was there any particular reason?
Various reasons; she actually preferred it when she saw it, it was a bigger car, it was £10k cheaper, it was available immediately instead of (at least) two months away and Peugeot Finance wouldn’t allow her to buy it through the business.
I think it was the right decision as even though the battery is 4.5kwhr smaller, it suits her needs better.
Last edited by Dave+63; 8th February 2021 at 10:55.
Im glad she is happy with it, i doubt the 4.5kwh would be even noticible against the 50kwh.
I have a Tesla Model 3, it doesn’t cost me much due to it being a company car. (BIK tax break). It’s amazing from what I can gather, however due to the lockdown I haven’t been able to drive very far.
I’d be interested in your experience of the Tesla Model 3 - how is the build quality? I’ve read some user reviews that say it’s shocking, others that it’s absolutely fine. I’m tempted to get one as a company car for the same BIK benefit but I’m wavering due to the perceived quality control issues and screen only driving. My other thought is the Mercedes EQC but real world range is not great.
Thanks
Mark
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I leased my Model 3 through my company Mark and it really is a no brainer.
Five months in and after 18 years of Audi and BMW I could not be happier, I would not go back to ICE or German cars by choice.
Happy to share my thoughts
Pitch
Last edited by Pitch3110; 9th February 2021 at 15:53.
Thanks Pitch, at the moment its a toss up between the Model 3 LR, Polestar 2 or MB EQC (I realise this is a totally different drive compared to my other choices but through salary sacrifice is only £50 a month more than the Tesla/Polestar).
The Tesla performance & range are a huge plus over the other 2. Being in Devon the charging infrastructure is not great so the range is even more important given when I return to my daily commute which is about 60 miles round trip of motorway. I would get a home charger but range anxiety would still be high with me. I'm just not sure how I would get on with a screen only cabin - how did you find the transition? Do you miss things like a wiper stalk for example? I know you will acclimatise, I just don't want to be stuck with something that annoys on a daily basis!
many thanks
Mark
Ah but what you are missing is the ability to lease via a limited company, which is then offset against corporation tax.
Equally if a normal company car, the BIK is low / zero (forgotten when it is changing), so for a company car driver there is also huge savings to be had, assuming you are of a level to have such a car, or that a salary sacrifice makes more sense to get into one.
Where it is not cheap full cost motoring (including the depreciation), is the private individual as aside from running costs the tax benefits (RFL aside) are minimal by comparison.
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The screen is something that I just got use to very very quickly, within a couple of drives it just felt natural, well for me. You can see in the background of one of the pic's wifey has one of the very latest FWD 1 Series M-Sport's and when I jump in it the car just feels cluttered, dated and claustrophobic, but built.
The wipers I have no issue with as when you press the button on the end of the left stalk the wiper sweeps and it brings up the dialogue screen beneath the car interface screen, it just works.
I think though you have answered the big one why Tesla makes sense living where we do, range, speed of charge and the network. I so so wanted an iPace, its stunning but living in rural Suffolk it was clear it was not going to be an option. I have a Tesla pal who tried the e-Tron and handed it back after a couple of hours when he realised what the range was like, it simply was that bad. I think the EQC is similar.
Last Thursday I had a number of meetings around Norfolk, Suffolk and into Cambridgeshire and the SC at Eleveden (Thetford) was perfectly positioned for a quick 15 min top up in the morning and again on the way home. Charging rate was pushing 350-400 miles per/hr at points, something you simply would not see with other public charges. These breaks were perfect for a bite and to catch up on emails, not a chore one bit. I have a Tesla wall charger in the garage at home and again it is perfect. I have it set to have the car charged at 6:30 every week day morning and my provider uses green energy to charge (????) and gives me a 100 miles a week for doing this.
I spoke to a lot of owners before placing my order which I did without driving or even sitting in a Model 3, a massive leap of faith. Everyone I spoke with said I would not be disappointed and I am not. The car is a game changer and the power is just plain bonkers.
Bit more food for thought Mark
Ta
Paul
All this talk of electric being a no brainer has got me interested. My wife has sent HR an email asking for the company car list. She currently gets an allowance but we hate our diesel GLC and want to change. We would just buy something petrol but I'll see what the cost of a Tesla is - assuming Tesla are on the list.
My wife is now also going electric, she’s ordered a M3 LR, like Pitch without even sitting in one.
We’re a bit nervous about whether it will be built properly, seems that whilst most people are very happy with them there are quite a few lemons as well, but then that’s the internet amplifying things too I guess.
Looks like my ID.3 and her Tesla will be fighting over the home charger occasionally, although given the range of both cars it shouldn’t be an issue most of the time, and if one of them needs to public charge she will be best placed to do that! :-D
I waiting to see what the Ford Mustang EV is like,
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Harry's Garage on YouTube has some reviews of electric vehicles and charging. Quite eye opening. He reviewed a VW recently and the range was out by 30% to the drivers detriment. The car weighed 1.8 tonnes and had drum brakes on the rear which seemed retrograde. Tesla is the benchmark on there
Drum brakes on a car in 2021?! I wouldn't be buying a second hand car with those let alone new.
‘Drum brakes’ are actually a good engineering solution to the problem of corroding rear brakes on EVs that do much of there ‘braking’ through motor recuperation, so the rear brakes don’t get much of a workout.
The rear drum brakes on the ID.3 are a modern take on the system, protecting the rear braking system from wet and corrosion, have zero drag when not engaged and also capture the brake pad and lining particulates for safe disposal at the 2 year service intervals.
So yeah, it’s got 11” ‘drum brakes’ on the rear, but for very good reasons and not for cost cutting, I’m sure that it would be cheaper to fit regular discs.
EVs do require a bit of adjustment in thinking sometimes.
All EVs suffer lower range in the winter, just like internal combustion engined use more fuel, it’s physics, but with the increasingly longer range models being released it’s less of an issue than it was.
I’m probably coming across a bit too much of an EVangelist now though for some of you, so I’ll leave it! :-)
I like cars of all sorts to be fair, but I do find EVs interesting technology wise, even though much of it isn’t new, just improved.
Having looked into all aspects of EV, for me it is just not viable in any way.
As a non business user, the cost to acquire/lease/finance is high without any ability to put it 'through the books' and there is no advantage in BIK etc.
I still maintain it is not the end solution.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Fancy an EV as my next car but I won't be able to install a charger at the front of my house. My consumer unit is under the stairs and there's no natural route for a cable route to the front of the house without digging up the hallway floor.
I'm hoping a normal plug socket will one day suffice for charging as battery tech improves?
Will this issue prevent me getting an EV?
When our wall charger played up, we had to revert to the plug charger for a while. This is for an old model leaf with smallish battery. It is not used for long drives due to range. The charge times are 3 times Longer (10A vs 32A). This was fine to overnight charge the battery, but a modern high capacity battery may not have enough time to fully charge. It really depends on your day to day usage of the vehicle.
There will also be the unplug and put away hassle to consider which is not there with a tethered wall charger.
It’s still very early days in the move to EVs, the charging infrastructure needs to improve hugely, and prices will come down.
EVs are expensive, but cheaper to run than an equivalent ICE car, but that cost of acquisition needs to come down for them to go mass market.
The end solution will look different, I agree, and will probably mean fewer people owning cars and fewer journeys. Depends how far out you’re looking really.
What mileage do you do?
An average EV will probably recharge about 6-7 mph from a 3 pin socket, so overnight around 70 miles of range back into the battery depending on how long your night is.
That might be plenty for you, or it might not, really depends on what your journey requirements are.
My daughter charges her MG from a three pin plug and I know a guy with a Tesla model X that does the same.
Charging from say, 6pm to 8 am gives 28kwhr of charge. If you’re only using 20 then that adds 8kwhr per day to the battery so every day it’s getting closer to 100%.
If you’re using more than 28kwhr or have less time to charge then it won’t work for you in this scenario but it definitely doesn’t rule it out for you.
Electricians are also pretty good at figuring out the least disruptive cable routes so you may be able to fit a charge point after all.
Battery tech improving won’t help your dilemma, you need to get a certain kW into the battery. Only help would be if the overall efficiency of the car improves so less power used but that’s already pretty good.
My Wife collected her VW ID-3 on Monday.
So far we have been locked out of it, as the keys went out of sync....according to the salesman, the car automatically changes the code for security reasons!!! Glad we were at home....
The We Connect will not connect,
The charging cable would not release from the car (Genuine VW 3-pin plug type ).
The Wireless charger the salesman was very keen to point out, is nothing more than an embossed icon in the plastic cubby hole...
The error message " Drive System Error " came on this morning as my Wife pulled out of the drive.
Its only Wednesday, after reading the ID-3 forum I can't say we are looking forward to the following weeks ........!!!
Honest and non inflammatory question.
My current car is 995kg and does 50mpg on petrol.
It is 3 yrs old and I own it outright. I am keeping it for another 5 years at least.
How can buying a brand new EV car, made brand new with exotic materials and shipped thousands of miles to me, be better than just keeping my current economical car?
Surely the first step towards reducing emissions is to stop changing into brand new cars every 3 years?
Consumerism is our primary disease, and the auto industry is concocting a solution based primarily on more consumerism....
Hmmm, my commute is variable as I'm based on client sites but at the moment my round trip is about 124 miles. I leave home before 6am and sometimes not home till 6pm so I could charge for 12 hours on average, therefore not enough.
Thanks Paul - really helpful. I've got an electrician coming over later to look at garage wiring options for a home charger. I agree with the comment about the internet amplifying bad experiences, but there is post by a chap on Pistonheads who has just taken delivery of a new Tesla & some of the panel gaps are horrific (see below). I'm not overly concerned as I'm not buying it, but it is shocking that the quality control on a £50k car appears to be variable to say the least. It would be pain to rectify as currently the nearest dealership is 80 miles away.
Mark
No, but it may be possible to plug it in at your workplace too. If that’s possible then it’s probably doable.
It’s true, the only car that’s good for the planet is no car at all.
But, we do consume cars, so if you’re going to do it then do it with something that impacts the planet less over its lifetime is my justification.
Unfortunately, there are many organisations with vested interests in discrediting EVs as an option, and there are many discredited ‘studies’ out there that talk about whole life emissions for EVs versus ICE cars. Somebody will probably link to one of them soon.
Whilst the upfront carbon used in the production of an ICE car is generally less than that of a comparable EV, the production and consumption of carbon fuels over the lifetime of each vehicle favours an EV, that and the reduction in local tailpipe emissions is why governments are pushing them.
Petrol and diesel also take a lot of energy to extract, refine and transport, and yes EV ‘fuel’ is only as green as the energy used to recharge them, but the UKs energy mix is getting more renewable all the time so every EV is benefitting from that as well.
It’s a complicated picture, and can be skewed depending on where you’re coming from, but I totally agree with your basic point that consuming stuff is the bane of the planet, and EVs aren’t going to change that.
Last edited by Tooks; 10th February 2021 at 09:59.
The front cup holder is where your place the key to either re-sync it, or to be able to start the car if the key fob battery goes flat. It doesn’t charge the key at all.
The WeConnect ID App can be fussy to get connected, you need your phone and the car to be in a strong 4G signal area, I couldn’t do mine on the drive as the car had a signal but my phone didn’t, and it was out of Wi-Fi range.
I was getting a lot of annoying yellow errors on my first week or two of ownership, as it’s been lockdown most of the time since, and after watching Battery Life on YT, I pulled the negative 12v lead for a couple of minutes, and then reconnected it. When I restarted I had every error message under the sun, but over the next two minutes they all disappeared as the cars 3 computers re-booted and synced. I also had to turn the steering wheel lock to lock a couple of times to remove the steering error message. Since then (November) I’ve had next to no errors, just an occasional ACC unavailable message when starting up.
Not recommending it as a fix, but it’s made mine much more stable for the way I use the car, and made me happier to wait for the promised ME2.1 software update from the end of Feb, if Covid doesn’t slip that.
You are yourself presenting a very skewed view of the problem, because the issue is not just carbon emission, and you know it very well.
I am surprised that H2 fuel cells haven't made more progress in the market. It's the only technology we have that combines the convenience of ICE in terms of filling up in a few minutes without a complex and entirely new network, and the use of renewable energy for producing the H2.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I’m presenting things from the point of view of somebody who has covered more than 100k electric powered miles over the last 5 years, if you think that’s skewed, then so be it, but I’m offering my experience which is what the thread is about.
I still haven’t seen a credible study that shows that an ICE car consumes less carbon over its lifetime than a comparable EV, just ones that conveniently ignore the well to wheel impact of a gallon of petrol/diesel, and focus only on the emissions produced when it’s burnt.
Or ones that focus on Cobalt mining for battery production, ignoring the fact that Cobalt is used less and less in battery production, that Tesla are producing Cobalt free batteries now, or that Cobalt is used in the refining of petrol as well.
EV batteries have a second life as home energy storage, something that is taking off arguably more than cars in some countries.
The key to EVs is the electricity used to charge them, in the UK that looks pretty good compared to say Germany, but still far worse than Norway for example.
Electric propulsion is a good solution for many people for passenger cars, but I agree that Hydrogen probably has a role to play for larger vehicles such as trucks and buses.
I’m just a bloke who is enthusiastic about electric cars, I like them, I don’t pretend to be saving the planet whilst driving them, and I’m definitely not judging anybody because they remain less than convinced about them.
In fact, if it stays mine and a few tens of thousands other drivers secret, then all the more chargers for me to use whilst out and about! ;-)
Last edited by Tooks; 10th February 2021 at 10:18.
I was not disparaging EV, or saying ICE were better, even if I think existing ICE are probably better for the planet than EVs that are yet to be built, therefore agreeing with The Doc (and yourself)
Evs that are yet to be built are better than ICE that are yet to be built.
But your initial rebuttal on the studies concentrated on carbon emissions, which is only a part of the problem. But yes, Co and Li, to name but those two, are still issues, which may or may not be resolved in the short to medium term.
I am not sure I follow you on keeping fuel cells for larger vehicles. The key to personal transport is autonomy, and fitting a full network of charging points across Europe is a daunting task, and in any case is unlikely to allow the bulk of existing car owners to switch to EV, whereas H2 would "just" need a progressive substitution of petrol pumps to match current and future needs.
The cost of fuel cells may be an issue now but just like batteries have, it should come down significantly as the production increases.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
It honestly will be interesting to see how it all pans out over the next decade or so.
The public charging network across Europe has made a good start, and 60% of people have a place to charge a car at home already.
Cars park every night somewhere, that’s where the charging needs to go, but I accept it’s not a small undertaking.
Maybe we’ll have both, I suppose even a hydrogen car needs the EV bit to operate.
Like others im not convinced by EV technology i believe it is just the next step in motoring evolution.
My concerns mainly are cost!!!!! These cars are not cheap, ok if it can be offset for tax etc but not for the average punter.
Also they are an attractive option at the moment but so was diesel when they sold us that myth many years ago!
Will they be so attractive when all the incentives are removed?
Road tax for EV is definitely coming.
The government has a huge deficit to fill as we move from fossil fuels and trust me they will claw it back somehow.
I think those that get in early will see some benefits but those late to the party not so much..
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We take delivery of our second EV next week, a Renault Zoe for my wife (I have an E-tron) both of which are from my company car scheme so very tax efficient. I personally can’t imagine going back to an ICE car as a regular driver, maybe for a weekend fun car.
The issue with emissions is about where they occur. Pollution in cities is the big issue at the moment, and so more councils are introducing restrictions such as the ULEZ in London that will make it harder to use an ICE car in future.
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My 50mpg, 995kg daily IS MY FUN car!
I don't want a dull EV as my daily: no gearshift, no engine noise, no connection with the car. Lightning fast off the lights but 2000 kg so it's awful in the corners, wears out its tyres twice as quickly (nobody talks about all the extra tyres and brakes in landfill) Batteries lose power/capacity as they cycle, so I'm frightened of keeping it for more than 5 years. Battery failure out of warranty = £6000....
I had an EV car for a week last year (an i3) and didn't like it. Also had an i8 for a weekend in 2019, totally fake lump of plastic.
But I know mass EV rollout is the future.
Tyres may wear out slightly quicker but there is virtually no brake wear as nearly all braking is done by the motors. A set of discs and pads will probably do 100k miles on an EV. No used engine oil and oil filters to be disposed of every 20k miles either.
No gearshift but you have the flappy paddles to play with the brake regen, makes it quite entertaining in the corners actually as you can can balance the throttle / brake on the single pedal mid corner in a way that’s not possible in an ICE. No engine noise but I think the Taycan sounds pretty cool at low speeds.
There is some battery degradation but it’s not like you get in things like an iPhone.
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Very persuasive! :)
But still don't want one.
But the planet needs them in general
So the lock out and Drive system errors appear to be a new bug resulting from the latest 2.1 software.
To be fair to Inchcape Swindon, from where the car was collected, the salesman came out today and swapped my Wife's car with another ID-3, and reported back this afternoon.
They were not aware of the issue and have already reported back to VW who, apparently are working on a patch.
The Drive system error, comes from the car charging for longer than 10 hrs, so I will need to put see if the App has a timer setting or maybe put a timer on the socket.
The other issues are just put down to initial settling in of the software etc.
I did manage to sync the key, but at 7.30, manually opening the door with an actual key, with the alarm sounding whilst trying to read the instructions to resync, with my Wife about to be late from work was a bit frustrating on the 2nd day of ownership.
That said, first impressions are I actually like the car, yes VW have obviously cut costs on materials, but they have done so across the range.
But its roomy, well equipped and should be perfect for shorter trips, though I suspect a long haul across France will be out of the question, not sure if the seats have enough support tbh.
If we ever can of course.
The 2.1 software isn’t released yet, 2.0 is supposed to be a pretty stable issue, but people are still having a few problems.
What software number does it have? The 2.0 etc are internal VW numbers. Mine is running 0570, which is like 1.1, current build vehicles should have 0783, which is 2.0. Sorry if that sounds confusing!
2.1 will install over the air updates apparently, so no more trips to the dealers hopefully.
The Ionity network is pretty established across Europe, night make road trips achievable, it’ll sail past 200 miles range per charge come the summer. I’m getting 175-190 miles even in current freezing temps, from the 58kWh battery.
I’m sure VW will come good on the fixes, it’s too important a car for them not to.
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