So here we go again..... lockdown 2 the virus strikes back

[Passenger]

But easy to blame the students and groups of youf out on a Saturday night as the problem.

I grew up in an inner city and have seen the photos in the Daily Fail and such like, tut tutting and the behaviour of some sort of underclass.

Now I live in a leafy part of Surrey, and see dinner parties and book clubs hosted for twelve. Nothing said, nobody criticised.

It is now a lose/lose situation, but it did not have to be. Test, test, test was rammed down every govs throat by the WHO since January. Those that followed the advice and executed it well have succeeded. Those that executed it poorly failed. Simple as.

Yup. I recall reading, back in March, of some frontline medics absolute confusion and chagrin that Central Government had waved the white flag at the virus and abandoned test, tracing and tracking efforts despite having local council teams already in place which with some scaling up, imagine a billion or two spent in a targeted, effective fashion, could have met the challenge locally on the ground.
Nah instead lets get Deloitte, Serco and Dido on the case that's just the ticket.

[xellos99]

If most shops and hospitality are closed where will they be going?

It is suprising how many business fall under what can remain open Food shops, supermarkets, garden centres and certain other retailers providing essential goods and services can remain open

The certain other retailers can include some very popular stores.

I dont know exactly what will be open in England but here i noticed that Spar Premier, newsagents with post office, food shops, garden centre and some other very popular places were open.

You have to remember that there are many people who go out just to get fags, use a cash point, get scratch cards, newspaper and other junk. That is their life.

[Passenger]

I din't think the WHO come out of this well TBH. And I don't necessarily agree with all you say there. There have been a lot of people who defrauded the system even in this crisis, which is unbelievable really. Many of whom have no political ties and are simply the usual chancers who spotted an opportunity.

Lolz...shouldn't the 'system' ie govt who after all is where the buck stops, have acted to at least discourage the fraud by not giving uncontested contracts including to various mates of Gove, Cummings. Or were the super forecasters in No.10 not up to predicting that the usual chancers wouldn't have at the opportunity presented by this crisis...likewise that winter was coming, as it always does.
There's no excuses just a failure or absentia of leadership at the top at the worst possible time, even that's not even much of a surprise given the single issue obsession of the last 4 years.

[Kingstepper]

It is suprising how many business fall under what can remain open Food shops, supermarkets, garden centres and certain other retailers providing essential goods and services can remain open

The certain other retailers can include some very popular stores.

I dont know exactly what will be open in England but here i noticed that Spar Premier, newsagents with post office, food shops, garden centre and some other very popular places were open.

You have to remember that there are many people who go out just to get fags, use a cash point, get scratch cards, newspaper and other junk. That is their life.

Maybe, but many of those aren’t in the high street and can’t see those going to Spa to get their fags and cards making the high street look busy.

[Ed875]

My old military NBC training mantra - Time, Distance & Shielding

• This hazard is going to take quite some time to get rid of.
• Contact with others is potential dangerous, so sorry we have to keep our distance even from friends and family.
• Wear a good quality FFP2, or 3 grade 'gas' mask where close proximity to others inside or out is unavoidable.

If we'd been stricter from July might not be where we are now, as some scientists are suggesting and also should be the case after this period comes to an end.

[zanderpants]

Yep, a minimum of £9k (on top of the £9.25k tuition fees) for rent and subsistence. More like £12k in London.

I have 2 that are currently in this situation and both are heading home. All lectures online and absolutely no social aspect. They have both said it’s like being in a prison cell 22 hours a day......


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[oldoakknives]

Lolz...shouldn't the 'system' ie govt who after all is where the buck stops, have acted to at least discourage the fraud by not giving uncontested contracts including to various mates of Gove, Cummings. Or were the super forecasters in No.10 not up to predicting that the usual chancers wouldn't have at the opportunity presented by this crisis...likewise that winter was coming, as it always does.
There's no excuses just a failure or absentia of leadership at the top at the worst possible time, even that's not even much of a surprise given the single issue obsession of the last 4 years.

I would think that in the rush to get everything in place there was more emphasis on helping those who needed it, rather than concentrating on the fraud aspects. Yes it's a shame the single issue couldn't have been sorted out sooner, but too many tried to stall it.

[Chinnock]

Not true.

I have 2 daughters at Uni - one in 3rd yr, the other in 2nd.

Both them and their year groups were cajoled into going back, plus they had tenancy agreements for accommodation already signed (some as early as Nov 2019). The universities were definitely asking them to come back saying things would be back to normal as much as possible. The timetables weren't released until Freshers week (week before lectures start) so by then students were already at Uni and in accommodation.

My younger daughter had the foresight (or just lucky) and took an opportunity she had to cancel her accommodation contract back in July. She decided back then to study from home and commute from home if necessary (Uni only 25 miles away). So far all her lectures and seminars have been online and obviously looks to continue that way.

Eldest didn't have the option to cancel tenancy and is 250 miles away, so commuting was never an option either. She has 1 f2f lecture a week, everything else is online.

Looking back, the Unis definitely lured the students back with promises of things being back to normal as much as possible and offerings would be broadly similar to normal. That's been far from the case. More like a distance learning course - whether that's worth £9.25k is up for debate.

Son feels absolutely conned and having confirmed residency back in the summer won’t be repeating this next year and only one f2f lecture, rest online.

First year, very little social interaction tbh, canteens and uni gym closed, limited access to other facilities and £5 for a pint FFS!!

[robert75]

But easy to blame the students and groups of youf out on a Saturday night as the problem.

I grew up in an inner city and have seen the photos in the Daily Fail and such like, tut tutting and the behaviour of some sort of underclass.

Now I live in a leafy part of Surrey, and see dinner parties and book clubs hosted for twelve. Nothing said, nobody criticised.

It is now a lose/lose situation, but it did not have to be. Test, test, test was rammed down every govs throat by the WHO since January. Those that followed the advice and executed it well have succeeded. Those that executed it poorly failed. Simple as.

The media really do need to take some responsibility for the mess we are in. Reading the news over the last several months we have been treated to almost daily point scoring from one political side or the other, new measures in place (They are stealing our basic rights) Measures relaxed (They dont know what they are doing) Throw in the comment section which seems to be filled with irresponsible idiots with too much time on their hands filling up space with conspiracy theories, petty slanging matches, and remarks clearly designed to created fear and anger and there is no wonder we are in such a state.

Even prior to this current lockdown announcement a lot of people I have spoken to have expressed how frightened they are either for themselves, family, businesses etc the last thing people need are the media stirring up trouble or bored idiots running to the internet to spew venom to make their own lives feel relevant.

[oldoakknives]

Exactly that.

[jammie*dodger]

I seem to remember students and universities crying out to be allowed to return. Don’t remember them having to be ‘pushed’ into going back at all. Exactly the opposite in fact, most couldn’t wait to start the ‘Uni experience’

My daughter is in her first year of Uni and definitely didn't want to be there in person but is on a course that requires a great deal of practical work that isn't possible from home (it involves cadavers). We both feel very strongly that she was encouraged to go in order that the accommodation got filled and the University could make its money.

Most of the teaching is online and there seems to be one practical every 2 weeks or so. I would have preferred that she travel to and from the campus (2 hour or so drive each way) and live at home but that doesn't keep the Uni in business I suppose.

[steptoe]

Those that test positive need a huge fine IF they chose not to isolate.

All that will do is put people off having a test.

[oldoakknives]

My daughter is in her first year of Uni and definitely didn't want to be there in person but is on a course that requires a great deal of practical work that isn't possible from home (it involves cadavers). We both feel very strongly that she was encouraged to go in order that the accommodation got filled and the University could make its money.

Most of the teaching is online and there seems to be one practical every 2 weeks or so. I would have preferred that she travel to and from the campus (2 hour or so drive each way) and live at home but that doesn't keep the Uni in business I suppose.

I can only comment on what I saw and heard on the media, which is what I was basing my comment on.
I agree with you that travelling would have been more sensible given the circumstances.

[noTAGlove]

I can only comment on what I saw and heard on the media, which is what I was basing my comment on.
I agree with you that travelling would have been more sensible given the circumstances.

Don’t believe all you read in the Daily Fail, Sexpress and Torygraph.

[robert75]

Don’t believe all you read in the Daily Fail, Sexpress and Torygraph.

Or the bandwagon Guardian or Independent "Make it up as you go along" either

Joking aside they are all a waste of a good tree or internet usage

[oldoakknives]

Don’t believe all you read in the Daily Fail, Sexpress and Torygraph.

I don't read those unless someone posts a link to them or an article is linked somewhere. Most of what I was referring to was on the BBC! Although I do read all kinds of press to try to get a balanced view. Perhaps you could try it. Sorry to disappoint your silly labelling attempt.

[snowman]

As long as you don't know them?

I am not sure you would think the same way if someone you loved was an 'acceptable statistic'.

But other people can die from undiagnosed treatable diseases?

This high moral ground is hogwash.

We keep seeing outliers paraded as 'look anyone can get it' but the reality is that the vast majority of people dying are on borrowed time anyway.

I saw a woman in her 80s on TV a week or so ago saying she'd rather live and take her chances than be locked away from company and miserable.

I hadn't watched an official press conference on COVID for months but watched yesterday's to see what was happening.

If anyone found that shambles convincing they were watching something I wasn't.

M

Sent from my ASUS_X00PD using Tapatalk

[ryanb741]

But other people can die from undiagnosed treatable diseases?

This high moral ground is hogwash.

We keep seeing outliers paraded as 'look anyone can get it' but the reality is that the vast majority of people dying are on borrowed time anyway.

I saw a woman in her 80s on TV a week or so ago saying she'd rather live and take her chances than be locked away from company and miserable.

I hadn't watched an official press conference on COVID for months but watched yesterday's to see what was happening.

If anyone found that shambles convincing they were watching something I wasn't.

M

Sent from my ASUS_X00PD using Tapatalk

Apparently only Covid deaths matter. We aren't (yet) seeing excess mortality for this time of year (namely more people aren't currently dying than would ordinarily do so) so clearly cancer and heart disease deaths matter less.

Data below from ONS stats. Seems flu seasons in the late nineties/start of millennium were worse than the 1st Covid Wave. Unless I'm having a crisis of memory I don't recall the lockdowns at that time......

[ach5]

I saw a woman in her 80s on TV a week or so ago saying she'd rather live and take her chances than be locked away from company and miserable.

When I hear this I just think that the majority of these people don’t really understand / haven’t really thought about what getting COVID means.

It’s all well and good to say ‘I’d rather be free and take the risk’ but if they saw the health devastation covid can cause to themselves and others, they’d think again.

In addition to that, they’re putting a burden on everyone else by going out and about, and when they do get ill they’re stealing a ventilator / bed they may well not have otherwise needed.

See my points above about the fundamental selfishness of people. People cannot consider the greater good; only themselves, for the most part. True altruism is vanishingly, astonishingly rare. And that’s where viruses have us by the balls.

[Saint-Just]

^ This.
It is exactly like drinking heavily before taking the wheel because you accept you could die in an RTA. Except that there are good chances that the accident involves another vehicle with a family on board who will die because of you.
It is not so much about someone deciding that they prefer taking the chance of dying from Covid rather than what they call ‘not living’: it’s about the implications their decision has on many other people, some of which could be from your family.

[craig1912]

But other people can die from undiagnosed treatable diseases?

This high moral ground is hogwash.

We keep seeing outliers paraded as 'look anyone can get it' but the reality is that the vast majority of people dying are on borrowed time anyway.

I saw a woman in her 80s on TV a week or so ago saying she'd rather live and take her chances than be locked away from company and miserable.

I hadn't watched an official press conference on COVID for months but watched yesterday's to see what was happening.

If anyone found that shambles convincing they were watching something I wasn't.

M

Sent from my ASUS_X00PD using Tapatalk

No comment other than I agree.

[craig1912]

When I hear this I just think that the majority of these people don’t really understand / haven’t really thought about what getting COVID means. It’s all well and good to say ‘I’d rather be free and take the risk’ but if they saw the health devastation covid can cause, they’d think again. In addition to that, they’re putting a burden on everyone else by going out and about, and when they do get I’ll they’re stealing a ventilator / bed they may well not have otherwise needed. See my points above about the fundamental selfishness of people. People cannot consider the greater good; only themselves, for the most part. True altruism is vanishingly, astonishingly rare. And that’s where viruses have us by the balls.

For the vast majority of people, getting COVID means a fairly mild illness. The vast majority dont need a ventilator. The vast majority dont need to be in hospital.
The vast majority of people aren’t selfish and have been trying to do the right thing.
The issue with all this is NHS capacity and management.

[Seamaster73]

But other people can die from undiagnosed treatable diseases?

This high moral ground is hogwash.

We keep seeing outliers paraded as 'look anyone can get it' but the reality is that the vast majority of people dying are on borrowed time anyway.

I saw a woman in her 80s on TV a week or so ago saying she'd rather live and take her chances than be locked away from company and miserable.

I hadn't watched an official press conference on COVID for months but watched yesterday's to see what was happening.

If anyone found that shambles convincing they were watching something I wasn't.

Aye, and we’re seeing the beginning of withdrawal of public consent as a welcome and long overdue response.

[j0hnbarker]

For the vast majority of people, getting COVID means a fairly mild illness. The vast majority dont need a ventilator. The vast majority dont need to be in hospital.
The vast majority of people aren’t selfish and have been trying to do the right thing.
The issue with all this is NHS capacity and management.

And there is the nub of the entire problem facing government: how to simultaneously throttle the virus through restricting our liberties to prevent our already creaking health service from collapsing, whilst trying not to destroy our economy through said restrictions.

If we didn’t have some of the lowest numbers of doctors and hospital beds per head of population in Europe, there may be more room for manoeuvre. The Nightingale Hospitals are a great case in point. Sure, there are beds there but who is going to staff them if the existing provision is operating at full capacity?

[Seamaster73]

And there is the nub of the entire problem facing government: how to simultaneously throttle the virus through restricting our liberties to prevent our already creaking health service from collapsing, whilst trying not to destroy our economy through said restrictions. If we didn’t have some of the lowest numbers of doctors and hospital beds per head of population in Europe, there may be more room for manoeuvre. The Nightingale Hospitals are a great case in point. Sure, there are beds there but who is going to staff them if the existing provision is operating at full capacity?

Perhaps if they made fewer Tik-Tok videos dancing up and down empty corridors, it might boost capacity?

[craig1912]

And there is the nub of the entire problem facing government: how to simultaneously throttle the virus through restricting our liberties to prevent our already creaking health service from collapsing, whilst trying not to destroy our economy through said restrictions.

If we didn’t have some of the lowest numbers of doctors and hospital beds per head of population in Europe, there may be more room for manoeuvre. The Nightingale Hospitals are a great case in point. Sure, there are beds there but who is going to staff them if the existing provision is operating at full capacity?

Which raises the question as to why they were set up in the first place, given we have never had the abilty to staff them. Another complete waste of money.

[Chinese_Alan]

It is suprising how many business fall under what can remain open Food shops, supermarkets, garden centres and certain other retailers providing essential goods and services can remain open

The certain other retailers can include some very popular stores.

I dont know exactly what will be open in England but here i noticed that Spar Premier, newsagents with post office, food shops, garden centre and some other very popular places were open.

You have to remember that there are many people who go out just to get fags, use a cash point, get scratch cards, newspaper and other junk. That is their life.

That was a big sticking point for me last time around. I’d be there doing my weekly shop, and you’d be behind someone buying a bottle of milk. Go home.

[noTAGlove]

^^^^you should edit the above, and not engage in expletives.

It is not the BP.

[j0hnbarker]

Perhaps if they made fewer Tik-Tok videos dancing up and down empty corridors, it might boost capacity?

Unfortunately there is nothing we can do to boost the numbers of doctors and nurses, short of robbing Peter to pay Paul. That is what happened last time when huge swathes of elective care were cancelled to redeploy these resources elsewhere.

It takes 5 years to train a doctor and 3 years to train a nurse. Newly graduated doctors are pretty useless for the first year (I know this because I was one several years ago), so you are looking at a lead time of 6 years+ before you can magic these people into service. These unfortunate facts mean we are stuck with shuffling what resources we have now around to help bolster those services where demand is highest, which over winter is predominantly going to be acute care driven by Covid.

I witnessed first hand this shuffling of the deck in my own specialist area earlier in the year, and in mental health services we now are seeing our own spike of cases driven by the first lockdown, our inability to deliver routine care to keep people well in the community, the toll of increased drug and alcohol usage etc.

[craig1912]

Unfortunately there is nothing we can do to boost the numbers of doctors and nurses, short of robbing Peter to pay Paul. That is what happened last time when huge swathes of elective care were cancelled to redeploy these resources elsewhere.

It takes 5 years to train a doctor and 3 years to train a nurse. Newly graduated doctors are pretty useless for the first year (I know this because I was one several years ago), so you are looking at a lead time of 6 years+ before you can magic these people into service. These unfortunate facts mean we are stuck with shuffling what resources we have now around to help bolster those services where demand is highest, which over winter is predominantly going to be acute care driven by Covid.

I witnessed first hand this shuffling of the deck in my own specialist area earlier in the year, and in mental health services we now are seeing our own spike of cases driven by the first lockdown, our inability to deliver routine care to keep people well in the community, the toll of increased drug and alcohol usage etc.

Is there a bank of military medics that could be utilised? I get that the NHS are understaffed but could something have been done in the last seven months to train people to a basic level of care for people that are ill but just “need looking after”

[Passenger]

Is there a bank of military medics that could be utilised? I get that the NHS are understaffed but could something have been done in the last seven months to train people to a basic level of care for people that are ill but just “need looking after”

They had many of those people in the care sector but overwhelmed them with the great untested patient shuffle/ outsourcing.

[j0hnbarker]

Is there a bank of military medics that could be utilised? I get that the NHS are understaffed but could something have been done in the last seven months to train people to a basic level of care for people that are ill but just “need looking after”

Yes, the DMS has doctors and nurses that could be redeployed to work in a civilian setting. However, that would be at the cost of reducing some of the care available to our armed services. Yet again we end up robbing Peter to pay Paul.

There is no way that we could have trained anyone in 7 months to do anything meaningful I am afraid. By definition you need nursing and medical input when you are in hospital because you are too ill to be managed, or, essentially ‘looked after’ in the community. We have also stripped our social care provision back so far that it has long been an obstacle to getting people with multiple co-morbidities (who are generally the older people who fill up hospitals to capacity in every winter anyway) back into their homes. Usually this means they sit bed-blocking, recovered and waiting to go home, and occasionally catching hospital acquired pneumonias which often quite tragically kill them before they can be discharged. This is probably another discussion on its own, but it highlights the complexity of the system and the problems we face when in the best of times it is operating on a knife edge.

[Passenger]

I would think that in the rush to get everything in place there was more emphasis on helping those who needed it, rather than concentrating on the fraud aspects. Yes it's a shame the single issue couldn't have been sorted out sooner, but too many tried to stall it.

But that's precisely how the system was meant to work OOK. When achieving the ends becomes justified by means such as lying to Her Maj about why prorogation, then the jig is surely up and a good hard examination of the ends is in order if it takes cheating to achieve them. Or do we cheat now...like with breaking the law on the withdrawal agreement but only in a limited and specific way...IF a nation is anything it is an idea, I'm not totally clear where our idea is going but it doesn't look good right now.

[Seamaster73]

But that's precisely how the system was meant to work OOK. When achieving the ends becomes justified by means such as lying to Her Maj about why prorogation, then the jig is surely up and a good hard examination of the ends is in order if it takes cheating to achieve them. Or do we cheat now...like with breaking the law on the withdrawal agreement but only in a limited and specific way...IF a nation is anything it is an idea, I'm not totally clear where our idea is going but it doesn't look good right now.

The rot set in when remainers tried to cheat the whole country.

[100thmonkey]

It highly likely it’ll be 6-8 weeks with a minor lifting over Christmas for families etc

[raptor]

Its f&$k November to save December for all economies

[Onelasttime]

Same old same old. This being the G and D I won't answer that. But I think you know well enough how I feel about it.

Oakey and Boris sitting in a tree …

[oldoakknives]

Oakey and Boris sitting in a tree …

Your usual level I see.

[Rod]

Is this place the new Bear Pit?, Thought that politics weren't allowed here 🤨

[wileeeeeey]

Is this place the new Bear Pit?, Thought that politics weren't allowed here 🤨

Terrible decision from the OP to put this in G&D.

[Onelasttime]

Your usual level I see.

But still a rung or two higher than yours

[Chinese_Alan]

^^^^you should edit the above, and not engage in expletives.

It is not the BP.

Done - wasn’t aware. Apologies.

[Chinnock]

It highly likely it’ll be 6-8 weeks with a minor lifting over Christmas for families etc

Spot on.

[oldoakknives]

But still a rung or two higher than yours

"Cognitive dissonance is a theory in social psychology. It refers to the mental conflict that occurs when a person’s behaviors and beliefs do not align."

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326738

[Daddelvirks]

Very very sad.

[oldoakknives]

When I hear this I just think that the majority of these people don’t really understand / haven’t really thought about what getting COVID means.

It’s all well and good to say ‘I’d rather be free and take the risk’ but if they saw the health devastation covid can cause to themselves and others, they’d think again.

In addition to that, they’re putting a burden on everyone else by going out and about, and when they do get ill they’re stealing a ventilator / bed they may well not have otherwise needed.

See my points above about the fundamental selfishness of people. People cannot consider the greater good; only themselves, for the most part. True altruism is vanishingly, astonishingly rare. And that’s where viruses have us by the balls.

I find this a bit depressing but I have to agree with you. Very few seem to grasp the fact it can be very serious even for those who survive. And the amount of people who just don't seem to care if their actions spread the virus is truly astonishing and seems to be rising. I think we are seeing people who are totally selfless in their care and protection of others as well and the difference between the two is widening.

[Neal666]

Who would have thought in 2020 it would be seen as absured and selfish to breath fresh air. What has the world become?

Further to this, why are we having another "wave" which is reported to be beyond the scientific prediction? And far worse than the first "reportedly"
Would this not suggest the masks don't work since we had no "mask control measures" during lockdown 1?
Would this also suggest the "scientific predictions" we are using to lock people down and destroy the economy arnt that accurate?

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Why are we days into this thread when it has been pointed out a few times that this is the G&D?

[Onelasttime]

"Cognitive dissonance is a theory in social psychology. It refers to the mental conflict that occurs when a person’s behaviors and beliefs do not align."

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326738

Woof, woof woof woof, woof woof, bark, arf, wag wag wag.

[Christian]

Is there a bank of military medics that could be utilised? I get that the NHS are understaffed but could something have been done in the last seven months to train people to a basic level of care for people that are ill but just “need looking after”

I don’t think there are enough in any meaningful number. Many specialists already work in civilian hospitals effectively doing a dual civilian job unless needed to deploy in an Afghanistan type scenario. Each unit will tend to have an exclusive military “GP” and a handful of locum GPs and a nurse or two. The rest who work in military medical centres have little training...they can administer blood pressure checks, eye sight tests etc...sometimes known as “scab-lifters”

The military is obviously a much fitter cross section of population compared to the civilian sector, it just doesn’t need a huge medical resource outside of combat situations. I can’t imagine there’s actually much resource to utilise.