Lockdown easing?

[mondie]

Why did the WHO state in January 2020 that Covid-19 was not capable of human to human transmission?

Why, when first Italy and then the USA banned flights in February, did the Director-General of WHO warn that this would “have the effect of increasing fear and stigma, with little public health benefit. Using the word pandemic carelessly has no tangible benefit, but it does have significant risk in terms of amplifying unnecessary and unjustified fear and stigma, and paralysing systems. It may also signal that we can no longer contain the virus, which is not true.”

Why did the WHO not declare Covid-19 a pandemic until 11 March?

Yes, the WHO has hundreds of experts in all areas of medical science but if your leaders are in the pocket of China and every statement has to be vetted by China, it counts for nothing.

I don't know, do you have any evidence for your claims, until Trump got on their case a few weeks ago I had never read anything regarding the WHO/China? There appears to be plenty of sites on the net making links and in the fullness of time the truth will come out, if there is any basis to the claims. I am not about to spend time defending the WHO but this doesn't change anything in my original post. The WHO remains one of the global sources of expertise available to our Government that it seems to have ignored.

[walkerwek1958]

I worked in an environment where use of PPE was part of our everyday routine. Much if the stuff was disposable ‘one use’ equipment, but that’s not to say it wasn't feasible to clean and re- use the items if we'd been in a situation where supplies were limited.

With all due respect to those from a non- technical background, it’s not easy to grasp this concept unless you've had first- hand experience (particularly if you’re a journalist and/or you have a conflicting political agenda). Same argument applied to disposable laboratory items, they could've been cleaned for re- use but it was more cost- effective to bin them after one use.

[SteveM112]

Of course not forgetting the WHO having Robert Mugabe as a
“Goodwill Ambassador”
You choose..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nugget]

I don't know, do you have any evidence for your claims, until Trump got on their case a few weeks ago I had never read anything regarding the WHO/China? There appears to be plenty of sites on the net making links and in the fullness of time the truth will come out, if there is any basis to the claims. I am not about to spend time defending the WHO but this doesn't change anything in my original post. The WHO remains one of the global sources of expertise available to our Government that it seems to have ignored.

The WHO was telling the world up until late February that this was not a global issue just a Chinese internal problem and many governments including the UK government appear to have placed some reliance on that. Are you not therefore criticising our government for following their advice too closely?

[All WHO pronouncements were reported by every major news outlet at the time - I don't think that even the WHO are disputing this!]

[oldoakknives]

Indeed, some of the equipment would lend itself to be cleaned and re-used, some not - the latter are designated single use only and therefore not to be reused/reprocessed. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland continue to abide by this, but not England.

R

So are you saying that the items designated single use, which the rule change said could be cleaned and re-used, were unable to be cleaned and used again?

[Saint-Just]

I haven’t seen a validated protocol for cleaning single-use PPE and taking it through a testing procedure to confirm it was still meeting the standards.

[Kingstepper]

'Single-use' is a rather nebulous term.

Could be worn for 15 minutes or a 6 hour shift.

[TBKBABAB]

If anyone is interested the ONS estimate for the number of people in the community who are
infected is 148,000 , that’s the average for the period 27th April-9th May.

[Rod]

Of course not forgetting the WHO having Robert Mugabe as a
“Goodwill Ambassador”
You choose..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He's a Yorkshire man isn't he?

[Andyg]

'Single-use' is a rather nebulous term.

Could be worn for 15 minutes or a 6 hour shift.

Single use, according to the wife means that it’s used to treat a single patient and then disposed of. Think needles, etc. This is done to prevent cross inflection between patients. I do not believe it has a time window associated otherwise surgeons/nurses, etc would have to change gloves/masks (single use) every xx minutes during a procedure.

However when you have a ward full of patients all inflected with the same illness, then there is little risk of cross inflection, therefore continuing to use the same masks, screens carries a much lower risk. It would however still apply to other single use items like needles, bed pans, catheters, etc.

In fact according to the wife, the very act of constantly changing masks, gloves, etc might actually increase risks to the medical teams.

[oldoakknives]

I haven’t seen a validated protocol for cleaning single-use PPE and taking it through a testing procedure to confirm it was still meeting the standards.

Do you think there has been time to set up such procedures, given that it was probably put forward as a last ditch measure?

In a perfect world............

By the way did you find any documented examples of hospitals running out of PPE?

[Kingstepper]

Single use, according to the wife means that it’s used to treat a single patient and then disposed of. Think needles, etc. This is done to prevent cross inflection between patients. I do not believe it has a time window associated otherwise surgeons/nurses, etc would have to change gloves/masks (single use) every xx minutes during a procedure.

However when you have a ward full of patients all inflected with the same illness, then there is little risk of cross inflection, therefore continuing to use the same masks, screens carries a much lower risk. It would however still apply to other single use items like needles, bed pans, catheters, etc.

In fact according to the wife, the very act of constantly changing masks, gloves, etc might actually increase risks to the medical teams.

Ah, thanks - makes sense!

[Saint-Just]

Do you think there has been time to set up such procedures, given that it was probably put forward as a last ditch measure?

In a perfect world............

By the way did you find any documented examples of hospitals running out of PPE?

I already answered your question by a negative and didn’t understand you wanted me to carry out the research for you. What did your last slave die of?
We’ve just seen Turkish PPE rejected because they didn’t meet NHS standards. So they had time to test.
Not checking if PPE is still offering enough protection after a single use item is treated and recycled seems fairly important, at least for the NHS personnel who has to wear it.

[oldoakknives]

I already answered your question by a negative and didn’t understand you wanted me to carry out the research for you. What did your last slave die of?
We’ve just seen Turkish PPE rejected because they didn’t meet NHS standards. So they had time to test.
Not checking if PPE is still offering enough protection after a single use item is treated and recycled seems fairly important, at least for the NHS personnel who has to wear it.

So you don't know of any cases where hospitals actually ran out of PPE. That seems rather surprising given the constant items on the news featuring people telling us how they were frightened to go to work because of PPE running out.

[TheFlyingBanana]

I can tell you that the Luton & Dunstable Hospital were so low on PPE and particularly facemasks that we, along with other local schools were asked to round up all the plastic sheeting we could find and transport it to another local school where the DT workshop and Head of Faculty made an incredible 8000 protective face masks for them.

[snowman]

There's a lot of overpaid management and underpaid front line workers in the NHS.

That's what comes of trying to run the NHS like a private organisation...

Of course, we all know that the opposite doesn't work either, but we're at the full swing of the pendulum at the moment.

M

[oldoakknives]

I can tell you that the Luton & Dunstable Hospital were so low on PPE and particularly facemasks that we, along with other local schools were asked to round up all the plastic sheeting we could find and transport it to another local school where the DT workshop and Head of Faculty made an incredible 8000 protective face masks for them.

How much suitable plastic sheeting does a school usually carry in stock? 8000 masks sounds quite a lot for one hospital, the only news item I saw was regarding Luton school who received materials from the University of Bedfordshire. I would be interested in any news articles on this.

[snowman]

8000 masks sounds quite a lot for one hospital

Sounds a lot? Based on what?

M

[mondie]

The WHO was telling the world up until late February that this was not a global issue just a Chinese internal problem and many governments including the UK government appear to have placed some reliance on that. Are you not therefore criticising our government for following their advice too closely?

[All WHO pronouncements were reported by every major news outlet at the time - I don't think that even the WHO are disputing this!]

I had a look through my files and found a presentation I gave to my management team on the 12th Feb to raise our awareness of the coming threat. This is from the UK Gov site and doesn't support your statement that the WHO was still telling the world this was a Chinese problem in late February.

Picture1 by Simon Gee, on Flickr

[OldHooky]

Nugget - I think in this it would have been wise as for at least 3 years Govt Medical opinion has been of the view that a pandemic was a matter of when, not if.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[Onelasttime]

8000 masks sounds quite a lot for one hospital

Single use masks? For around 3,500 staff? Disposing of each mask up to 5 times a day? It adds up to less than a days' worth.

Here is some guidance on use of masks in hospital environment:

4.4 Wearing PPE on a Cohort Ward/Unit/Residence for those with COVID-19

• Surgical face masks do not need to be changed when moving between service users in a cohort area; however the mask should be changed when wet, damp, moist, damaged or soiled and removed when leaving the cohort area, for example going to break. Don’t touch front of mask when removing.

• Surgical face masks should not be reused once removed e.g. when going to answer the telephone.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Single use masks? For around 3,500 staff? Disposing of each mask up to 5 times a day? It adds up to less than a days' worth.

Here is some guidance on use of masks in hospital environment:

4.4 Wearing PPE on a Cohort Ward/Unit/Residence for those with COVID-19

• Surgical face masks do not need to be changed when moving between service users in a cohort area; however the mask should be changed when wet, damp, moist, damaged or soiled and removed when leaving the cohort area, for example going to break. Don’t touch front of mask when removing.

• Surgical face masks should not be reused once removed e.g. when going to answer the telephone.

The context was for face visors.

[Onelasttime]

The context was for face visors.

I was reading it as masks based on the below quotes. However, even if they're school-made reusuable plastic masks, that's still only 2.2 masks per staff. Hardly a lot.

I can tell you that the Luton & Dunstable Hospital were so low on PPE and particularly facemasks that we, along with other local schools were asked to round up all the plastic sheeting we could find and transport it to another local school where the DT workshop and Head of Faculty made an incredible 8000 protective face masks for them.

How much suitable plastic sheeting does a school usually carry in stock? 8000 masks sounds quite a lot for one hospital, the only news item I saw was regarding Luton school who received materials from the University of Bedfordshire. I would be interested in any news articles on this.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

I was reading it as masks based on the below quotes. However, even if they're school-made reusuable plastic masks, that's still only 2.2 masks per staff. Hardly a lot.

Sorry, I am not going to go into this again, having done so before and given up due to the barrage of disbelief and counter (media quoted) opinions.

People need to stop all this hand wringing - people want to churn things over, which I get - but it's unhealthy.

[Onelasttime]

Sorry, I am not going to go into this again, having done so before and given up due to the barrage of disbelief and counter (media quoted) opinions.

People need to stop all this hand wringing - people want to churn things over, which I get - but it's unhealthy.

I'm not churning anything. I've barely posted in this thread.

Old Oakey Kokey was suggesting 8000 masks was a lot for one hospital. I was pointing out that 8000 masks, in whatever form, doesn't seem a lot to go round 3,500 staff (specifically Luton & Dunstable hospital). Maybe you disagree for whatever reason? I was merely trying to assist Oakey in his confusion about the numbers.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

I'm not churning anything. I've barely posted in this thread.

Old Oakey Kokey was suggesting 8000 masks was a lot for one hospital. I was pointing out that 8000 masks, in whatever form, doesn't seem a lot to go round 3,500 staff (specifically Luton & Dunstable hospital). Maybe you disagree for whatever reason? I was merely trying to assist Oakey in his confusion about the numbers.

I was not specifically meaning you BTW.

The clear plastic visors are for staff working clinically with COVID patients in an ICU type setting, not every member of staff.

My view is that this is not really a G&D discussion for obvious (to me) reasons.

[oldoakknives]

Single use masks? For around 3,500 staff? Disposing of each mask up to 5 times a day? It adds up to less than a days' worth.

Here is some guidance on use of masks in hospital environment:

4.4 Wearing PPE on a Cohort Ward/Unit/Residence for those with COVID-19

• Surgical face masks do not need to be changed when moving between service users in a cohort area; however the mask should be changed when wet, damp, moist, damaged or soiled and removed when leaving the cohort area, for example going to break. Don’t touch front of mask when removing.

• Surgical face masks should not be reused once removed e.g. when going to answer the telephone.

Do all the staff wear them?

[Onelasttime]

Do all the staff wear them?

Now that I don't know, although I'm trying to imagine why any staff member working in a hospital at this current time, in any department, wouldn't?

[Johnny Mac]

Deleted

[Onelasttime]

I was not specifically meaning you BTW.

The clear plastic visors are for staff working clinically with COVID patients in an ICU type setting, not every member of staff.

My view is that this is not really a G&D discussion for obvious (to me) reasons.

I hear you. Peace and love

[Onelasttime]

… lack of PPE certainly isn't a government issue but a wastage issue by clowns throwing masks away every time they leave the ward.

Seriously?

Forum lifeblood

[TheFlyingBanana]

How much suitable plastic sheeting does a school usually carry in stock? 8000 masks sounds quite a lot for one hospital, the only news item I saw was regarding Luton school who received materials from the University of Bedfordshire. I would be interested in any news articles on this.

Clearly your tone suggests you don't believe me, so knock yourself out, here it is in The Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rs-coronavirus

They made so many they went to other hospitals and organisations in need.

There's plenty more news articles on them:

https://www.lutontoday.co.uk/health/...ionals-2547628


I know the teacher who organised this - top chap.

[oldoakknives]

Now that I don't know, although I'm trying to imagine why any staff member working in a hospital at this current time, in any department, wouldn't?

So you don’t know.
But you were prepared to try to ridicule my post saying I thought it was a large amount.
So what numbers exactly did you base your post on?
Or did you simply want to disagree for the sake of it?

[oldoakknives]

Clearly your tone suggests you don't believe me, so knock yourself out, here it is in The Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rs-coronavirus

They made so many they went to other hospitals and organisations in need.

There's plenty more news articles on them:

https://www.lutontoday.co.uk/health/...ionals-2547628


I know the teacher who organised this - top chap.

Your original post said 8000 visors were donated to Luton hospital. That was why I asked. Also I asked what schools would use the materials for and why they would have them in stock.
It wasn’t that I didn’t believe it happened. I merely asked you to clarify some details. Which you didn’t.

[TheFlyingBanana]

Your original post said 8000 visors were donated to Luton hospital. That was why I asked. Also I asked what schools would use the materials for and why they would have them in stock.
It wasn’t that I didn’t believe it happened. I merely asked you to clarify some details. Which you didn’t.

Ah, I see well. Well done. You "win" a point on a peurile technicality. Bravo. Not every one of the 8000+ they eventually made was donated to the Luton & Dunstable Hospital, just the vast majority were.

The plastic sheeting we donated would have been used mostly for covering displays of work.

Happy now?

[Kingstepper]

To be fair to Oaky, the Guardian article says a Muslim organisation paid for most of the materials.

[TheFlyingBanana]

To be fair to Oaky, the Guardian article says a Muslim organisation paid for most of the materials.

May well have done (the faiths get along pretty well in Luton), but I know lots of local schools were scouring their resources to donate anything they could, mine included.

[oldoakknives]

Ah, I see well. Well done. You "win" a point on a peurile technicality. Bravo. Not every one of the 8000+ they eventually made was donated to the Luton & Dunstable Hospital, just the vast majority were.

The plastic sheeting we donated would have been used mostly for covering displays of work.

Happy now?

It’s not about “winning points” it’s about being clear about what is posted. Your original post didn’t quite say that, although I’m sure you’re literate enough to express what you mean. So the ‘majority’ of the 8000 were given to the Luton hospital.
You never answered my points on your post regarding the difficulties on returning to school by the way.

[ralphy]

May well have done (the faiths get along pretty well in Luton), but I know lots of local schools were scouring their resources to donate anything they could, mine included.

Makes you wonder just why all these people are making all this PPE...

R

[Onelasttime]

So you don’t know.
But you were prepared to try to ridicule my post saying I thought it was a large amount.
So what numbers exactly did you base your post on?
Or did you simply want to disagree for the sake of it?

The numbers of masks donated didn’t seem that high to me, but maybe you know more about who and who doesn’t wear masks in a hospital? I simply looked up the number of staff employed at L&D hospital and did some maths.

Do you have any facts you could reveal to us or do you simply spend most of your tine on TZ just disagreeing for the sake of it?

[TheFlyingBanana]

It’s not about “winning points” it’s about being clear about what is posted. Your original post didn’t quite say that, although I’m sure you’re literate enough to express what you mean. So the ‘majority’ of the 8000 were given to the Luton hospital.
You never answered my points on your post regarding the difficulties on returning to school by the way.

No I didn't, because I am too busy planning to try and deliver it than to waste time responding to a sealioning post from someone who clearly doesn't have experience in this area.

I have given it a quick glance now, and it seems most of your questions/challenges seem to be around parents having responsibility for ensuring their children social distance on the way to school.



As I have a little more time this evening I'll explain, briefly.

It may surprise you to know that a significant number of parents may not always be totally reliable or responsible in such matters. Whether I have direct legal responsibility for their journey while off-site or not is therefore, operationally, irrelevant to me. I have to deal with the situation once the child arrives on site.

If they have had potentially hazardous contact en-route, then the integrity of the student bubbles on site we will be painstakingly setting up and managing, isolated totally from all the other bubbles, is drastically compromised and severely damaged. This then will potentially compromise the safety of the up to fifteen children in that bubble, their familes, the staff member isolated with them, and their family. It will also endanger the children in the other bubbles if the children who mixed off site are members of different bubbles. So all the virus mitigation measures we have put in place are potentially compromised.

So, if the students arrive at school in a group with a bunch of mates, or we suspect they haven't been observing social distancing en-route, what do we do? Do we isolate them all individually? How would we staff that? We will have a skeleton staff team on site at any time to reduce exposure. Do we keep them together, thus potentially giving the potential virus more time to transmit? Do we send them home? What if their parents are working, and there is no-one at home?

The bit I suspect you don't get, because you don't do the job I do, is that it doesn't matter who is responsible in this situation, all that matters is what the implications are and what effect it has. I could ring up a child's parent and remonstrate with them over their failure to act responsibly in transporting their child to school - and that would solve what exactly? Don't do it again? Too late...

Some of these parents struggle to manage their lives and their families under normal circumstances, let alone where we are now.

The angle you were coming from is one of naivety.

[oldoakknives]

The numbers of masks donated didn’t seem that high to me, but maybe you know more about who and who doesn’t wear masks in a hospital? I simply looked up the number of staff employed at L&D hospital and did some maths.

Do you have any facts you could reveal to us or do you simply spend most of your tine on TZ just disagreeing for the sake of it?

So you assumed that everyone in the hospital would be wearing a mask, or visor to be correct.
I decided that only a percentage of them would.
Who do you think is correct?

You were the one disagreeing with me, with little regard to facts.

[oldoakknives]

No I didn't, because I am too busy planning to try and deliver it than to waste time responding to a sealioning post from someone who clearly doesn't have experience in this area.

I have given it a quick glance now, and it seems most of your questions/challenges seem to be around parents having responsibility for ensuring their children social distance on the way to school.



As I have a little more time this evening I'll explain, briefly.

It may surprise you to know that a significant number of parents may not always be totally reliable or responsible in such matters. Whether I have direct legal responsibility for their journey while off-site or not is therefore, operationally, irrelevant to me. I have to deal with the situation once the child arrives on site.

If they have had potentially hazardous contact en-route, then the integrity of the student bubbles on site we will be painstakingly setting up and managing, isolated totally from all the other bubbles, is drastically compromised and severely damaged. This then will potentially compromise the safety of the up to fifteen children in that bubble, their familes, the staff member isolated with them, and their family. It will also endanger the children in the other bubbles if the children who mixed off site are members of different bubbles. So all the virus mitigation measures we have put in place are potentially compromised.

So, if the students arrive at school in a group with a bunch of mates, or we suspect they haven't been observing social distancing en-route, what do we do? Do we isolate them all individually? How would we staff that? We will have a skeleton staff team on site at any time to reduce exposure. Do we keep them together, thus potentially giving the potential virus more time to transmit? Do we send them home? What if their parents are working, and there is no-one at home?

The bit I suspect you don't get, because you don't do the job I do, is that it doesn't matter who is responsible in this situation, all that matters is what the implications are and what effect it has. I could ring up a child's parent and remonstrate with them over their failure to act responsibly in transporting their child to school - and that would solve what exactly? Don't do it again? Too late...

Some of these parents struggle to manage their lives and their families under normal circumstances, let alone where we are now.

The angle you were coming from is one of naivety.

Thanks for that.
Since you have no control over what pupils do on the way to school, nor would know what they did, I fail to see how it will be a factor. But then as you say I am naive perhaps.

[ralphy]

If they have had potentially hazardous contact en-route, then the integrity of the student bubbles on site we will be painstakingly setting up and managing, isolated totally from all the other bubbles, is drastically compromised and severely damaged. This then will potentially compromise the safety of the up to fifteen children in that bubble, their familes, the staff member isolated with them, and their family. It will also endanger the children in the other bubbles if the children who mixed off site are members of different bubbles. So all the virus mitigation measures we have put in place are potentially compromised.

So, if the students arrive at school in a group with a bunch of mates, or we suspect they haven't been observing social distancing en-route, what do we do? Do we isolate them all individually? How would we staff that? We will have a skeleton staff team on site at any time to reduce exposure. Do we keep them together, thus potentially giving the potential virus more time to transmit? Do we send them home? What if their parents are working, and there is no-one at home?

It will be an absolute nightmare trying to manage that.

Has there been any Government guidance given to you at your school? There doesn’t seem to have been anything at our local primary school, they held a meeting for the parents of Reception, Years 1 and 6 yesterday evening and the teachers were as concerned as the parents. Even putting aside the travel to and from school, it will be impossible to provide the social distance requirements within the school building or enforcing them in the playground.

That children and staff could become the equivalent of caged canaries down a mine in the fight against coronavirus is abhorrent.

R

[number2]

Apparently the teachers are ready to get back to school.

[Slamdoor]

I’ve retired from teaching now and never have I been more grateful than under the present circumstances. Whether at the chalk face or management it must be a nightmare.

[Onelasttime]

So you assumed that everyone in the hospital would be wearing a mask, or visor to be correct.
I decided that only a percentage of them would.
Who do you think is correct?

You were the one disagreeing with me, with little regard to facts.

Why are trying to pick a fight?

The original point mentioned masks, not visors. I’ve already said that 8000 doesn’t seem a lot for a hospital of that size. Talking of facts, if you can tell me what percentage of the 3500 staff will be wearing masks at any one time then we can put this to rest. I suspect you don’t know so we shall have to agree to disagree.

You think 8000 sounds a lot, while I don’t.

[ryanb741]

Jeses H Christ. The Daily Mail has outdone itself here.

Apparently the teachers are ready to get back to school.

[number2]

Yes apparently it's all the fault of the unions,

[oldoakknives]

Why are trying to pick a fight?

The original point mentioned masks, not visors. I’ve already said that 8000 doesn’t seem a lot for a hospital of that size. Talking of facts, if you can tell me what percentage of the 3500 staff will be wearing masks at any one time then we can put this to rest. I suspect you don’t know so we shall have to agree to disagree.

You think 8000 sounds a lot, while I don’t.

I’m not the one trying to pick a fight. I suggest you look at the condescending names you called me in your posts and think about that one again.

As for the percentage wearing the type of masks/visors in question you’re right I don’t know the exact number. But I’m confident it’s those working with Covid patients. So a lot less than 3500.

So yes we disagree.