Reply With Quote
Several Dutch news sites: 'Ross Brawn is contemplating a reverse starting grid again to spice up the excitement'. What's been suggested here. He must be a lurker here - or is he a member with a well-hidden identity?
I miss the draft thread.
Cheers..
Jase
Several Dutch news sites: 'Ross Brawn is contemplating a reverse starting grid again to spice up the excitement'. What's been suggested here. He must be a lurker here - or is he a member with a well-hidden identity?
Lol, I’m not bitter, (especially as I said it will not effect WDC or the WCC) i just think it was wrong, just as I would think it was wrong if another driver was impacted in this way.Originally Posted by Lampoc
Especially as we are not talking about a driver or a team doing anything dangerous or cheating. This was technical infringement caused by the trackside officials themselves. What they could have done is notified the drivers/teams directly (via radio) that that pit lane was closed and maintained yellow flags at Parabolica or even deployed a virtual/actual safety car. Once the HAAS was moved, the pit lane could then be reopened and then cars could pit at they liked. What the officials choose to do was close the pit lane and deploy the safety car at the same time, minutes after the HAAS had parked up.
As for the penalty, do you feel that a 10 sec “stop go” was appropriate? Why not a 10, 20, 30 sec penalty added to a drivers time. Remember Albon only got 5 seconds for running RG off the track.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Mán you obvously think it ALL wrong thus ANY penalty unfair.
He had bad luck. It´s just like a few mm ouside of track limits. It is but nothing yet still over the limit = penalty.
Get over it.
Be happy he fínally showed he can properly overtake without getting blue flagged free passage.
Maybe we should start a F1 thread with swearing in the Bear Pit?
I am over it, especially as I cannot change it. I am simply airing an opinion, which you can do as well, rather than trying to play the man. But if you think it was fair, then good for you. I don’t.
Your comment about he can “properly overtake” did however make me laugh. I think you might have been asleep for the last 13 years. Or perhaps you have forgotten all those times he overtook DR, SV, NR, MV, etc including his overtake at Brazil to win the WDC.
What however is a bit disappointing is that no one seems to have noticed that LH took it like a man, no bitching and whinging, seemed genuinely pleased for Gasly and even expressed concern for CLC following his accident. He didn’t even complain about tyres, his engine, his lack of modes, qualification, etc unlike many of his peers.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Or an independent draft website to host one on. Who knows, if it took off we could then offer threads to be similarly (ab)used for any other forums out there currently without one - on a commercial basis, of course. (AlphaOmega would probably demand royalties, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it.)Maybe we should start a F1 thread with swearing in the Bear Pit?
Yes...the marshals can disengage the clutch. See the 2020 Formula One Technical Regulations for:
9.4 Clutch disengagement:
All cars must be fitted with a means of disengaging the clutch for a minimum of fifteen minutes in the event of the car coming to rest with the engine stopped. This system must be in working order throughout the Event even if the main hydraulic, pneumatic or electrical systems on the car have failed. This system must also disconnect any ERS system fitted to the car.
In order that the driver or a marshal may activate the system in less than five seconds, the switch or button which operates it must :
a) Face upwards and be recessed into the top of the survival cell no more than 150mm from the car centre plane.
b) Be designed in order that a marshal is unable to accidentally re‐engage the clutch.
c) Be no more than 1150mm forward of the plane C‐C.
d) Be marked with a letter "N" in red at least 40mm tall, with a line thickness of at least 4mm, inside a white circle of of at least 50mm diameter with a red edge with a line thickness of at least 2mm.
Edit Now if the gearbox had seized, maybe that button would not free up the system allowing the wheels to rotate?
Last edited by PickleB; 7th September 2020 at 22:26.
See this article...Formula 1 race director Michael Masi has clarified four points of contention for "The pitlane was closed at 15:41:47, according to the FIA, with Hamilton entering the pits 12 seconds later" and more.
Plus 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Directors' Event Notes v2 dated 04 September 2020 for:
5) Track light panel displaying pit entry status
5.1 The light panel indicated on the pit lane map will display a flashing yellow arrow if cars are required to use the pit lane once the Safety Car has been deployed during the race.
5.2 The light panel indicated on the pit lane map will display a flashing red cross if the pit lane is closed at any point during the race.
I saw in a youtube video about the race, that the pit lane closure has been the same for every race this season, along with the placement of the pit closed signs. It wasn't a one off just for this race.
Also the penalty for breaking the rule is now written in the rules, the stewards didn't have any any other punishment available to dish out.
It's also been reported that during the red flag Lewis went to to the race director to argue over his penalty.
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/943816...-argue-penalty
Yes...the marshals can disengage the clutch. See the 2020 Formula One Technical Regulations for:
9.4 Clutch disengagement:
All cars must be fitted with a means of disengaging the clutch for a minimum of fifteen minutes in the event of the car coming to rest with the engine stopped. This system must be in working order throughout the Event even if the main hydraulic, pneumatic or electrical systems on the car have failed. This system must also disconnect any ERS system fitted to the car.
In order that the driver or a marshal may activate the system in less than five seconds, the switch or button which operates it must :
a) Face upwards and be recessed into the top of the survival cell no more than 150mm from the car centre plane.
b) Be designed in order that a marshal is unable to accidentally re‐engage the clutch.
c) Be no more than 1150mm forward of the plane C‐C.
d) Be marked with a letter "N" in red at least 40mm tall, with a line thickness of at least 4mm, inside a white circle of of at least 50mm diameter with a red edge with a line thickness of at least 2mm.
Edit Now if the gearbox had seized, maybe that button would not free up the system allowing the wheels to rotate?
If the engine/gear box seized on track, they would be following the skid marks to point where the car impacted the barrier.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
The question remains why Masi didn’t tell the teams/driver verbally and why were they only informed on page 4 of the timing sheets. If Masi had time to switch the lights on, then he had time to tell the teams verbally, especially as the Haas was not a safety risk given that the corner was already under yellow flags.
Lewis get 12 seconds notice, CS and the rest of the pack about 30 seconds notice. Hardly fair given its with in the control of Stewards.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
There has been a lot of hyperbole in the press about a 'thrilling' race, but for me the only interest in the last half was seeing a new face on the winner's rostrum. Apart from Hamilton overtaking a bunch of slower cars to make his way up to seventh, there seemed to me to be no more overtaking than any other race with long straights and a safety car. Reverse grid is a ridiculous idea for F1; overtakes are hard; if I wanted a load of drafting and ten overtakes a lap I would watch some form of oval racing (or much better, MotoGP)
See link in my post above for:
...Masi, who was not responding directly to Mercedes’ comments but explaining his decisions independently, says there are multiple parts to the signal used for the closure of the pitlane.
“One is for the driver, the light panels have a big red X on it. Depending on the circuit, there are either two panels or one panel.
“At this circuit we have two panels [on the outside mid-corner and at the exit of Parabolica] that display that cross to signify the pitlane is closed from a trackside perspective.
“Additionally, the software that the teams use has the pitlane shown as red with pitlane closed.
“The third element to that is on the timing page that has all the incident notifications pop up. That says ‘pitlane closed’ on page three.”...
So the teams were not "only informed on page 4 of the timing sheets" and as for why "Masi didn’t tell the teams/driver verbally" I suggest that F1 use software for all such warnings as it will be a lot quicker. They don't want to waste any time when there's a red flag, safety car etc etc.
See also https://youtu.be/Z9ZA2wa9h4o?t=488.
There is no doubt that the teams were informed or that the lights were on, the issue is that Hamilton or whoever was first didn’t stand a chance, he had 12 seconds notice whereas the rest of the devils had 30, the only reason he and his team just took it on the chin is that they are so far ahead in both Championships it make little difference,
One way to spice up the racing going forward is to switch on warning signals with no notice for no reason and catch out the drivers, then give huge penalties to ruin their races, maybe even accept bribes from other teams.
That will only work if they specifically target MB every time, and MV every third time. Not a bad idea...
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Normally yes, but not when he has to look in the opposite direction, he was turning right into a fairly tight pit entry and the warning lights were on the left, at that point he would not be able turn back onto the track as he would receive a penalty for crossing the pit entry white line.Having just seen the incident footage, isn't 12 seconds plenty enough for any F1 driver to react?
R
In most races I have been involved in the officials would have let him past and then closed the pit lane, which would have been extremely unfair on the rest of the field
Hamilton was just unlucky
According to the article above from the FIA the first of those warning boards is half way round Parabolica. Given that Lewis would (should) have been driving at a reduced speed due to yellows, he should have seen them.
That would work.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
It’s funny, LH leads from the front, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th cannot overtake and its boring, predicable, it’s not racing, the death of F1, blah, blah, blah.
Gasly leads from the front, 2nd, 3rd, 4th 5th cannot overtake and according to some it’s the best race ever. Morons. Plus it perfectly illustrated why the reserve grid idea is at best “flawed”.
I am pleased for Gasly simply because of the humiliation he suffered he suffered at Redbull last season and seems like a nice guy, but hopefully people will not get carried away. Remember that Maldonado and Kubica also scored wins. In 54 races driving (for RB affiliated teams), PG has amassed 147 points - a 2.77 average. Albon in 27 races has amassed 140 points (5.18 average) which should have been higher if it wasn’t for a bit of bad luck. So on paper Redbull would be right to stick with him.
For those interested MV point average is 9.57, VB is 9.5, DR 6.01, SP 3.34. Nico actually only achieved 7.74 and Webber a rather disappointing 4.81.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
The officials could have simply waved him through the pit lane and stopped Mercedes from working on the car. The rest of teams would have not been unfairly effected. Especially as the safety car was being deployed so the pack was going to bunch up anyway.
Actually LH was penalised twice. He lost the 15sec lead he had built up and then again because of the Stop Go penalty.
So unlucky is a bit of an understatement.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
No. It is just that: unlucky. You bombard us with multiple posts with your drivel about LH not having enough time to read the sign, and now you expect the stewards to realise within a fraction of a second that LH’s mistake was not deliberate, maybe not even his fault, and to devise a way to mitigate the consequences of said mistake by waiving him through.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
If reverse grids are going to become a reality, they need to try it with the new regs. At least give the teams chance to design cars more effective at running behind others.
It was dramatic, and there was sone good racing at points. But Sainz was clearly faster, but unable to get anywhere near close enough to Gasly.
And the red flag/pitstop regs need changing. Stroll was extremely lucky.
Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk
He would have been at reduced speed, partly because of the yellows, but also as he would have taken a narrower line (closer to the Apex) because that where the pit entrance was.
Plus he would have also most likely been checking brake bias, changing gear, slowing down and getting getting ready to hit the speed limiter - as well as looking out for the HAAS car and the marshals (also on his right).
So I doubt he was looking left or noticed flashing YELLOW lights, in a sea of YELLOW flags. Perhaps RED lights would have been better, because Yellow represents a warning rather than RED which is more definitive - Pit Lane closed is pretty definitive.
As I said previously, numerous options were available, from better signage, better communication, alternative penalties, etc, I am just hopeful that the FIA learn from this. I wonder what Charlie Whiteing would have done. I still don’t know way KM simply didn’t coast the car into the pit, as Vettel was able to do (with no brakes). Or why the Masi delayed deploying the safety car/closing the pit lane as long as it did. It was certainly longer than 12 seconds 😂
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Red signs are definitive, it means the race has been stopped and you would come into the pits anyway.
Cheers..
Jase
They should have random reverse grids, so the teams have to qualify as fast as they can. Even then, I imagine many teams would try to qualify 10th.
How would one make a reservation for a reserve grid?
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Hardly a faction of a second. It was 12 seconds, plus the time to drive down the pit entry lane, the time to hit the limiter, the time to reach his pit. But it odd that you say the stewards didn’t have time to make a split second decision, when that’s exactly what drivers and teams were expected to do. A simple call to the team would have sufficed.
Mclaren, Tracing Point, RB, Renault, etc were all able to keep there cars out simply because they had more time to react, which suggests that Masi made his decision without looking at a bigger picture or the telemetry data. Plus if the HAAS was causing such an issue why didn’t he deploy the safety car immediately rather than waiting.
FYI I am not trying to “devise” anything, simply offering some options regarding what could/should have happened vs what actually happened.
Hopefully lessons will be learnt and that things like the WDC or WCC will not be decided on crap like this.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
How can they enter the pits if it’s closed?
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Oh bravo. Brilliant contribution.
But just for clarification it should read “Reverse”, but that you knew that but still wanted to score a point, whilst adding nothing to the contribution. Well played.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
No you idiot. The 12s is the time LH had NOT to enter the pit lane. Which would have indeed been a short time for you had you taken your car for a spin at Imola, but for a F1 driver is an eternity.
The stewards had to first see LH was entering the pit lane, then decide it was a genuine mistake rather than an infraction (on what grounds?), then find a solution to mitigate that mistake (why? when a driver makes a mistake and damages his suspension, the race is not halted to give his mechanics a chance to repair it). By which time he was stopped in his pit anyway.
You really post some shit sometimes. Now be a good sea lion, reply to this; in several posts, if you can. It will boost your post number.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
The first of two red cross light panels (taken from the video linked above that shows both):
Hardly out of his sight line and nothing unusual on the inside of the curve. If he tried to plead not guilty in a magistrates court for not having seen a road sign in a similar position the charge might be upped to without due care and attention.
Light panels relay many signals from yellow flags, safety car warnings, black flags etc etc; see Appendix 2 of pdf link for FIA Standard 3504. I would expect all drivers to have a thorough knowledge of them.
Oh bravo
But just for clarification it should read “Reverse”, but that you knew that but still wanted to score a point, whilst adding nothing to the contribution. Well played.
And your "contribution" is what, exactly? Onanistic adoration of Lewis Hamilton doesn't count.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
From the video linked above ISTM that the warning lights were both visible and passed before he turned into the pit lane. Have a look for yourself.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
I agree, and also, they have done many many laps of that circuit so they would have an idea where the various warning lights are. Those two lights coming on in a place where he hasn’t seen them before is surely going to catch his eye.The first of two red cross light panels (taken from the video linked above that shows both):
Hardly out of his sight line and nothing unusual on the inside of the curve. If he tried to plead not guilty in a magistrates court for not having seen a road sign in a similar position the charge might be upped to without due care and attention.
Light panels relay many signals from yellow flags, safety car warnings, black flags etc etc; see Appendix 2 of pdf link for FIA Standard 3504. I would expect all drivers to have a thorough knowledge of them.
These guys operate at another level. I remember Vettel on Top Gear saying he looks at the big screens when he’s going around the circuit to see where the other cars are.
Lewis had no excuse and he even admitted it was his fault.
Meanwhile, in other news, Mike O'Driscoll appears to have become surplus to requirements at Williams, and Simon Roberts (ex-McLaren) is the new (acting) Team Principal:
https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/08/...l-at-williams/
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Someone’s written a list
And we have winner: a Finnish guy predicted last Sunday's 1 -2 -3 correct at the bookies! a 20 cent bet earned him 33K euros!!
Use Translate: https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2020/...allplaceringar
Menno
Seems like Lewis has seen the writing on the wall for F1 and has jumped on board the future
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53630904
Hamilton was unlucky he didn't win, let it go. He's already accepted it as a mistake and it's not going to change anything in the championship.
Last edited by Happyal; 8th September 2020 at 16:12.
< cba >
We're not actually interested Andy, at all !!
The first of two red cross light panels (taken from the video linked above that shows both):
Hardly out of his sight line and nothing unusual on the inside of the curve. If he tried to plead not guilty in a magistrates court for not having seen a road sign in a similar position the charge might be upped to without due care and attention.
Light panels relay many signals from yellow flags, safety car warnings, black flags etc etc; see Appendix 2 of pdf link for FIA Standard 3504. I would expect all drivers to have a thorough knowledge of them.
No one said out of sight, but whilst this picture is interesting, it does not reflect the fact that the drivers are doing about 160 mph and pulling 4-5g in the process on a car with zero suspension travel. But why have the signs on the outside of the corner and not over the apex. Honest question have you driven a single seat sports car on track?
As for the Signal colour, it was widely reported that they were Yellow not Red.
But it matters not. All history now.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Hardly F1. It a 5 race series for SUVs taking place in the boonies, which consume huge amounts of carbon simply getting the cars to their location.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
No one said out of sight,...
But I did suggest that they were well within LH's sight line even if they are on the outside of the bend.
Technically they could have been in LH if they had been mounted on the top of the stand for it to be “in-line of sight”, but even you have to admit that a better location would have been on the inside of the Apex. Which interesting is where the ministry of transport typically place signs.
...but whilst this picture is interesting, it does not reflect the fact that the drivers are doing about 160 mph and pulling 4-5g in the process on a car with zero suspension travel.
Really...https://youtu.be/iAQNJ-Ah0_g?t=172?
Far enough, Lewis was slowing down because of his impeding pit stop and was discussing tyre choices with the team. Once he was already committed, he was then told the pit lane was closed and when he questioned it was told it was being checked! So zero time to do anything about it. And the reason for this mess was down the Masi. LH accepted responsibility because he had to, but the fault lies with the race stewards.
But why have the signs on the outside of the corner and not over the apex.
So that they're visible for a longer time as a driver rounds the bend?
Except the drivers are not looking there, they are looking for the apex.
Honest question have you driven a single seat sports car on track?
Honest answer, no...but I cannot see that it's relevant in this instance.
If you had, then perhaps you might have a greater appreciation for the difficulties faced by the drivers and where their actual line of sight is.
As for the Signal colour, it was widely reported that they were Yellow not Red.
i suggest you tell that to LH, Toto, DC, etc, all of whom said yellow.
But it matters not. All history now.
Quite true.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
In other news, check out MV overtaken on SP (lap 24), where MV actually punted him off the track.
Quite shocking 😀. https://youtu.be/NyfPqWipmJs
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
What’s your experience of driving single-seaters then, Andy?
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Edited for clarity:
On the subject of corner apexes (apices?), drivers don't look at them. They look through the corner, to the exit. Turn in, aim for the exit. If you start faffing about trying to hit the apex you just unsettle the car.
And the corner in question is the Parabolica, where the apex is irrelevant, it's an early turn-in, and then the drivers run around the outside of the corner, which is why "track limits" were a big issue there at the weekend. So putting an illuminated sign anywhere on the inside of the corner is a waste of time, if you want the drivers to see it, the sign needs to be on the outside, towards the exit.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Posting Permissions
