Reply With QuoteThat is very sad to hear. There is an inordinate amount of skill and precision that goes into watchmaking and to hear it being commoditized by the wider industry is tragicOriginally Posted by 744ER
It's a game of dealers and junkies, eh, sorry, of authorized dealers and loyal customers.
That is very sad to hear. There is an inordinate amount of skill and precision that goes into watchmaking and to hear it being commoditized by the wider industry is tragic
I agree with the OP.
Although I have never been in the same "league" as some on here regarding disposable income = large/expensive collections, I did once have around £25k tied up in watches.
My flipping habit led me to own (for varying amounts of time) many fantastic timepieces and I think back on them fondly (and sometimes regretfully).
My position was fuelled by a decent job, kids grown up and flown and a wife who also works.
However, although there was some income to fund my watches it was mainly fuelled by a great relationship with an AD who gave me great discounts up to 30% on most mainstream, mid-high end brands, including up to 25% on Rolex (yes even the sports models).
That relationship ended when he moved on.
To be honest, most of my watches were not all present at the same time and often I had to sell one to fund the other.
When I started my first higher end watch was an Omega SMP "Bond" (pre-Coaxial) and cost £1,100 new but cost me £880 with the 20% discount.
My first Rolex was a brand new SS Sub-Date at £2,300 (no discount at that time but it was the same AD who later became a friend).
Since then I've flipped and swapped for Jaeger-LeCoultre, Breitling, Tag, Omega, Rolex etc. and often owned models more than once!
I have been detached from this hobby/obsession for a fair while now as viewing these forums only fuelled my discontent with whatever was/is my current watch.
My circumstances have changed in recent years and my priorities have shifted but I think that even had they not, my ability to participate in the premium Swiss brand madness would be seriously reduced due to crazy price rises, year after year, after year, after year.......
I'd like to think that one day I may do a final flip/purchase and get myself another Rolex Sub or SD or (as I'm getting older) a 36mm SS DJ.
Who knows but at these prices it's looking more unlikely every year and perhaps I'll just flip the SMP for a smaller (36-38mm) non-diver watch like an Omega AT, a dress/chrono type watch or perhaps even vintage?
Hmm.....sets me a thinkin'.......
For now I'm very happy with my 2014 black SMP Ceramic and my 1960's 35mm Omega HW Geneve.
As for focusing on cheaper brands? Well yes I see the attraction in one way but after owning so many of the other premium brands I do struggle to find lower end brands that tick that "special" feel for me, never say never though.
I have noticed though, that the lower end or boutique brands are increasing in line/proportionally with the premium brands so even they are starting to become a more significant investment than they once were.
Last edited by Orange Peel; 26th November 2018 at 10:12.
That’s almost my own experience word for word, although my kids are still young enough to be at home! - I’m also now a bit further down the line in that I no longer own a single watch ‘worth’ over £500. I bought a bond Smp for the exact price you quoted, followed by a sub for £2300 - mentally anything over that amount can be best spent elsewhere so I’ve just quite painlessly moved onto the cheaper end of the market and buy a lot less. A bit weird to read your ‘parallel universe’ thread tbh!!
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I have found this subject very interesting as this is what has happened to me over the last year.
I was happy when Omega and Rolex models could be had for £2000 and £3500 but in the last few years they have gone mental.
I bought my last Rolex in 2014 for under £5000 with discount.
I think the light bulb moment for me came on Saturday when i went in to my local Rolex AD to collect a Rolex Sub Date at a RRP of £6550.I tried the watch on and i thought no way this is worth this amount(yes i could have walked out with it and sold it for £500 more)
I passed on the offer and went home happy and will now carry on with my watch hobby with watches i find more enjoyable for me with Casio Citizen etc.
I'm wearing my 42mm Explorer 2 today but it's the first time in quite a while. I find Rolex's approach to their customers naff and don't really want to be a part of it. I wear my Grand Seiko more than anything else now, it makes the Rolex look a bit too gaudy and frankly I would rather wear something understated that very few people will take a second glance at.
I was lucky to be able to buy watches over the last 10 years, mostly before prices started going nuts, and still have a good few Omegas and Heuers I wouldn't be able to afford now. When I started it was possible to pick up a Tudor Snowflake, 5513, pre-Moon Speedy, Autavia or whatever for a reasonable amount but now they're all incredibly expensive and very rarely come up for sale I suspect because people hang on to them. I think it's a combination of knowing they have something worth good money, a fear of losing out if prices keep rising and another fear of not being able to buy another if they do sell. Or maybe they're selling behind closed doors. I don't know. I suspect my collection would be a lot more fluid if watches weren't investments but as it is I've learnt to love what I have. Saying that I've sold a few vintage watches of late and bought a couple of new ones (the GS and an X33 Skywalker Speedmaster).
"A man of little significance"
I have noticed all my life that there always seems to be this mysterious, dark and shadowy figure next to me, never quiet in focus and only visible in my peripheral vision.
The only time I've had anything even approaching a medium expensive watch was when my grandmother gave me some money when I got my PhD and insisted that I splurge spend at least half of it. The watch was eventually nicked, and I used the insurance money for something else. Since then (about 30 years ago), £300 for a watch has been the tops. Tools that can be used on watches are another matter, of course.
The closest I've come to a really expensive watch was when I rode my bicycle to a local jewellery shop and asked if I could have a close look at the Patek Celestial they had. Surprisingly, the manager got it out of the safe and handed it over (in a clear box). Lovely watch.
Best wishes,
Bob
I rarely comment twice in the same thread, but it seems that my take on the hobby is rather more prevalent than I expected. Perhaps the folk sitting on half a dozen modern Rolex, a few Omega and a Patek or two arent joining in that much, or perhaps this thread is a bit of a straw in the wind.
Because much as we think of ourselves as atypical watch obsessives I suspect we are pretty representative of watch buyers in the anglophone west: largely middle aged, overwhelmingly male, relatively well educated and affluent, in the main. And if lots of us are getting out of the lumpy stuff then it doesnt bode well for values, at some future point. Its all got a even more emperorers new clothes, but perhaps thats just the nature of luxury branded goods.
And I think we can be fairly sure that folk from the big brands read these threads with more than a little interest. It would be interesting to know where they think we are headed.
Although I don't spend much, I'm still keen on watches. I can enjoy tinkering with a cheap watch. So, if you want to call it a passion, it hasn't changed. Indeed, I even like looking at watches that cost a bundle. I just can't afford them. If I had oodles of cash, I probably would buy some.
Best wishes,
Bob
Exactly this!
Does watch collecting HAVE to be about Rolex and Omega? I have a really big and diverse watch collection and only 3 or 4 Swiss watches.
Seiko and Citizen are a fantastic place for a watch collector to start, and they can be bought for pocket money.
In the past it wasn`t too difficult for a qualified repairer to set up as an independent and make a better living........parts restriction and setting the bar unreasonably high to gain accredited status has stopped all that!
I struggle to see why people pay the money that is now asked for the so called luxury brands, I have always been interested in watches and now find myself in a good financial position and able to buy a luxury brand, the problem now is I understand more as I have matured the real value of things, a couple of grand for a watch, yes I would pay that £4000 to £5000, no I would not. I still appreciate a quality watch but I also appreciate what their real value is.
I have sympathy for the OP.
My wife and I were on holiday for a week in Yorkshire.
We saw Rolex priced in one case at over £20000 - I cannot recall the model as I was just not interested. The price was well out of my league and the watch was fugly (not uncommon with some of Rolex offerings).
The only watches I had any interest in were:
-Seiko divers (seemingly JDM but only 2 or 3 of them ) at the York outlet Seiko shop priced at about £600 - £2000 (I can't remember)
- a Longines and an Omega gold vintage watches in a Harrogate antique shop priced at around £500 and £700 respectively (with the prospect of a 15% discount).
But I don't need another watch at present,my wrist is too slim for a Seiko diver and I know nothing about vintage watches (but I did like what I saw of the Longines and Omega)
Like every thing I guess cheap finance has a big part to play. Before people used to save up and buy a watch to celebrate a milestone. These days with 0% finance for say 12-24 months you can pick up a Tag/omega and pay approx £100 a month to pay it off....it’s appealed to a mass middle class which can show off their achievement. It used to be cars but I guess it’s trickled down to watches.
Even if we look at cars it’s the prices have gone in the same direction. 20 years ago a bmw m3 (milestone ish car I would say) was around 40k, now you can spec one up to almost 80k! However with financing and pcp these days it costs around £600 a month to ‘own’ one and bmw are just flooding the market with them (same goes for golf Rs, every other idiot seems to be driving one).
Same thing has happened with watches I guess, the days of saving up and buying to collect have gone.
Would be good to start a thread for micro brands under £1000!
Last edited by gaurav_tzuk; 26th November 2018 at 22:08.
This is what kick-started my passion. I blame the parents.
This wonderful place has indeed changed over the years as you mention Jason and more so over the last 2-3 years but things never stay the same.
I am in many respects guilty as charged but I do genuinely enjoy some of the higher end stuff. In many cases, the pieces I have were purchased many years back at sensible money (ridiculous by comparison) and their now inflated value does not distract or add to my love of them, they are just trinkets, whatever the value.
Hands up, I have the odd 'garish' almost perversely priced watch but I feel no different wearing these or the few hundred quid quartz on my wrist, or G Shock, I am pretty sure I am still grounded......cough...
For me, I have interesting timepieces which I genuinely adore and bore friends talking about and others, well, they are just, well, watches, nothing more...
Given thats just short of £1400 in todays money, the OP has a point perhaps.... In fact id be off to queue for one now at that price!
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Totally agree, one of my work colleagues came in a couple of weeks ago in his Rolex, he was telling me how long it took him to source the particular colour he wanted, to me it could have been a £200 watch, I found it very small and I asked myself at the time "wow 5 grand for that", as a guy who works in procurement, if i was asked to put a value on the item it would be nowhere near what the cost actually is. Sorry if I offend anyone but as long as people keep paying silly money, these greedy manufacturers will keep upping the price
The irony is that people will only pay silly money if the manufacturers keep upping the price. After all, who would want to spend such amounts on mass produced lumps of steel to flop around on their wrist if any old pleb could afford them ;)
Great thread, I like many of the above am finished with the pursuit of grails as to watches. I joined TZ because I wanted a Dreadnought PRS2, I had one for a few years. Back in 2008 Subs were circa £2K, SMP's about £800-£900. They were so accessible, in fact you could swap a PRS 2 for a Sub at one point! I've owed dozens of nice watches, but am happy with the half dozen I have left. Not bought a watch for 3 years now, the last being a G Shock that commands most of the wrist time, as its indestructible.
I always wanted watches that were rare or at least not common. That was my attraction to Eddies collection, I missed the boat on so many Rolex, Omega, Breitling deals as I found them just to common. I still like to look when in the High Street but £3K + for SMP that I paid £450 for 7 years ago on here? Do me a favour!
aye the herd finds them reassuringly expensive and easy credit does the rest.
I’m reaching that point you mention.
I wear my GMT the majority of the time and whilst it’s still a very expensive watch, I don’t baby it or worry absolutely it like I do when I wear my Hulk.
I wear my airking rarely, the Monaco looks nice with a suit and the Speedy panda is a beauty that I like to stare at.
I haven’t worn the Datejust for a couple of months and the aerospace once.
I just seem to pick up the GMT every time........ so you’d think I’ve maybe found the perfect one watch (maybe 2 watch?) setup? Because the GMT seems to suit everything, without being TOO bling or showy or large, casual enough for jeans and smart enough for a suit.
But here’s the problem.
Prices are shooting up at such an alarming rate that IF I got shut of anything today, it’s very unlikely I’ll ever be able to afford to replace them. The days of £1250 Speedies, £800 Aerospace Avantage and £3500 subs are long gone......
An I’ve bought back Speedies, aerospace’s and Monaco’s after I’ve sold them so I know it’s not beyond the imagination.
I’m lucky I don’t need the money but one day, who knows?
I’ll be keeping hold of the majority for now, and in some ways that’s a shame because people could be wearin them instead of them being sat in a box whilst I’ve just got the GMT on every day.
I actually like the prices going up. Firstly it's better to wear an appreciating asset than having it in stocks and shares etc. Secondly the wife moans less when she knows that the Rolex is as good as money in the bank.
Finally you got to remember that prices only go up when collectors (ie us lot) keep spending the money. We are the ones who cause the problem, no one else.
The vast majority of Rolex owners that I know are not collectors. They are seen by many as an indicator of success and as such are much sought after by a certain demographic with plenty of disposable funds. Good or bad, this adds to the price inflation.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
I still think anyone buying a Rolex to signify status is likely to be disappointed. Most people don't notice or care; the few that do may think it's a fake (many probably are).
Maybe in the UK. Rolex, Mercedes, BMW, etc. are status symbols here and in many countries where wealth is considered to be a prime indicator of success.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Wow John Bull in Bedford. I bought my first Breitling from them, I felt like a king at the time, they even had a small water fountain in their shop!This is what kick-started my passion. I blame the parents.
This thread reminds me of my personal experience with the Omega Planet Ocean. Back in 2005, I purchased the first PO2500C 45.5 "Casino Royale" from the Omega boutique at Heathrow airport. My first luxury watch. I was over the moon.
The 2500 was already co-axial, it was a heavily modified ETA2892. Fast forward a few years and the next gen PO8500 was announced as featuring an in-house co-axial movement, which by the way is also made by ETA exclusively for Omega, The retail price from one to the other more than doubled. I always found that shocking.
Last time I visited my local AD in Spain, I was told Omega could get away with it because they were mostly catering for the booming Chinese market whom love Rolex and Omega and were prepared to pay silly money for their Swiss luxury piece.
I paid exactly 1,547 pounds for the bracelet version and they threw in an extra croc strap with deployant clap worth 300 at the time. Good old days.
Now I'm mostly wearing and enjoying affordable pieces.
Last edited by VicLeChic; 27th November 2018 at 13:54.
Since prices have rocketed, I hardly wear my 1675 any more and only think about selling it to take a big chunk off the mortgage. I think that's a bad thing, because I love wearing the watches I buy.
On the other hand, I could sell any of my 3 "vintage" Rolexes to cover the price that I've just paid for my grail watch, a Chopard Chrono One, so maybe we should shift to looking at "softer" brands, where second hand prices remain (relatively) affordable.
Same.This is what kick-started my passion. I blame the parents.
My grandfather worked there and taught me the value of a good watch.
I'm afraid i'm one of those Rolex collectors that are ruining the hobby for everyone.
No love of horology and just desperate to communicate my success by ostentatiously displaying wealth and status.
Those sorts of accusations aren't overplayed or tedious in the slightest.
Blame ETA (and collectors). They made folks go "in house", which was expensive. So, prices went up. Then others followed the lead to stay "exclusive". Now sales volume is down, but the production equipment is still expensive (higher overheads), so with lower volume sales, the prices go up even more. And if demand increases, raise prices even more. :)
I've heard tell that a phone manufacturer has done something similar: keep profit up despite lower selling volume by raising prices.
Best wishes,
Bob
Last edited by rfrazier; 27th November 2018 at 16:30.
In 1978 the pound was worth 3.55 Swiss franc , It is now 1.3 .
The price is not so different.
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At most a ‘luxury watch’ might indicate that you have a job of some kind. I suppose a really expensive one might suggest you already have absolutely everything else you could need. Or else that you have a warped sense of priorities and a near-sexual attraction to shiny bits of metal... Yes, that’s probably it.
An interesting read.
I don't play the flipping game these days and have only a few watches of relative low value.
There are a few I aspire to own and that list hasn't changed in quite some time now, however several of those desired are barely below £10k. Bloody ridiculous
Gray
Or that you are a drug dealer, although the car is usually more of a giveaway than the watch
This is an interesting read. I can say that I have recently had my passion stifled by the used and new prices of Rolex in particular.
In 2001 I walked past a jewellers, saw a brand new Pepsi GMT in the window and quite simply wandered in and bought it. I paid £2350 for it (with the majority on interest free credit) which was a phenomenal amount of money for me back then, but I have to say it seemed good value at the time. No waiting lists, no sucking up to dealers, just a nice simple purchase.
Since then I’ve collected a few nice used Rolexes and I would like to carry on doing so, but the price and availability is really putting me off. I’ve owned other brands as well, and am still thinking about picking something else up, but I have to say that at the moment nothing else really appeals to me that much.
It is a very personal thing, but I can see a few reasons behind my waning passion for the “higher end” watches; I now have a large mortgage, a wife and 2 kids to feed and in that context spending large sums of cash on a watch doesn’t seem to make as much sense as it once did. Secondly, (and I’m not going to get into politics here) but for obvious reasons there is no doubt at all that one way or another the economy will be in a very different place over the next 3-5 years - perhaps I’d be much better off with a smaller mortgage?? Thirdly, the increase in value of these watches makes it much more likely that at some point some little scrote will jump out of the woodwork and relieve me of whatever I happen to be wearing at the time meaning I’m much more likely to leave them in the safe.
All of the above (for me anyway) seem to take some of the enjoyment out of ownership.
I have recently found myself reaching for my trusty Seiko Monster more and more. It has pretty much all the functionality I like about a watch whilst being a lot more individual (I’ve never seen another on the tube to Canary Wharf but I see an awful lot of oyster and jubilee bracelets) and not worrying about having £X,000 strapped to my arm seems to mean I can just enjoy wearing it.
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If the high prices are putting people off, how come demand for Rolex is at an all-time high? There are probably more people in this hobby than ever before.
At some periods of life, spending on watches may be minimal, at other times, pretty high. It fluctuates.Nothing odd about any of this.
For fifteen years, I spent a grand total of less than £100, on a Seiko Kinetic. Now I spend...too much. And so it goes.
Last edited by paskinner; 27th November 2018 at 19:12.
Is that a ref 5700?This is what kick-started my passion. I blame the parents.
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We are a strange bunch (if that is the right collective noun for a bunch of watch people). Come on, man (or woman) up!! We don’t have to buy expensive watches to enjoy this hobby - as many have said they have joy in getting into the more obscure and/or less expensive brands.
Let’s not lose sight of why we signed up to this forum. I’m sure it wasn’t to moan about the price of these trinkets. Let’s keep discussing the intricacies of movement types, latest developments, antique versions etc. Let’s be virtual friends and even meet up in person over a pint.
“Always look on the bright side of life”?
I’m probably going to get flamed for posting this comment. But hey - it’s nearly Wednesday.
Martyn.
I believe it is!
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A rare beast, they had a short production run didn’t they?
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I think a lot of people buy these expensive watches more as Bragging symbol, I am sure there are many of us who can afford a £10 watch but chose not to have one even though we could easily afford one. There are then the ones who buy to say "look at me". Its the same thing with iphones, people will pay £1100 just so they can brag, "look at me I have the latest iphone" lol
Many of the newcomers (latecomers?) aren't in it because of any enthusiasm for horology, history, miniature engineering & technical innovation.
They're in it for the money.
That's what's driving the demand for the most-conservative of mainstream watch brands.
Simply, that's not a hobby in my book.
______
Jim.
This is an irregular verb isn't it?
I have a nice watch that I enjoy for itself and for myself
You have really indulged yourself haven't you, let's be having a look at that then, ooh very nice
Look at that berk over there, who does he think he's trying to impress with that, bet he works in the City.
Sorry, but that's a massive generalisation and is wrong.
If Rolex (the brand) is just a status symbol then why can I buy a 18ct Quick Set Day Date which would cost £23k new today) for less money than an SS Old Non-date Sub which would have cost £300 back in the day .
Also it does not explain why people are prepared to spend 10 times more for a 3,6,9 Sub rather than a standard Sub and so the list goes on. Whether it's the thickness of the case, a Bakelite Bezel, a Creame Dial or one with Comex engraved on the back.
Clearly the people who are buying these rarer watches are educated/passionate and are buying them either because of their rarity/collector-ability or as investments - not as "status symbols" . I certainly never bought any of mine as "status symbols". If that had been the case then I would have stopped at one, not 12.
But perhaps the real reason why prices have increased is
a) demand always outstrips demand (especially the rarer watches) - same as art, ,cars, coins, stamps, handbags, and even some shoes/frocks.
b) they are an appricating asset - see above.
c) because men (its nearly always men) enjoy owning old stuff (cars, hi-fi, cameras, stamps) and have some level of disposable income - some more than others.
d) because having a watch collection/old car is a lot cheap then a mistress, hookers, Coke and gambling addiction.
However it could be that some people simply enjoy owning and wearing increasing rare watches and get off on the thrill of the chase.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
You are of course correct sir!! I think I just need to re focus slightly!!
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What is killing your passion is that your income doesn't rise at the same rate as the price hikes of the watches. You're not alone in this situation, people who once were more or less comfortable and could enjoy high end jewellery, cars, ready to wear things, accessories and other luxury goods and services are now struggling to justify the costs. Same with the property market, things just moved on thanks to the people who earn money in a dishonest, or highly questionable way and speculators, helping them to spend the dosh.
Fas est ab hoste doceri
I feel sorry for the people just getting into watches now and can’t try out all the classic brands and watches without a big budget. It took me a fair amount of time to work out what I liked and what suits me. Hard to do now at the current prices and availability.
Just to be clear, my post wasn’t referring to vintage, or to collectors with an interest in horology who make up a tiny proportion of worldwide contemporary luxury wristwatch consumers. Sorry if that wasn’t obvious. I merely wanted to make the point that many purchasers have deep pockets and other reasons for buying that can drive up prices.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
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