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Thread: Seagull movements.

  1. #151

    Re: Seagull movements.

    WOW! Bob, thank you! Very interesting!

  2. #152
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    It is difficult to be sure which Dream you are talking about; the designation goes back to 1956. As you mention the late seventies Superdream I will assume that we are talking about a similar vintage. I'm not sure exactly which British motorcycles you are comparing this with as, by the time of the Superdream, The British motorcycle industry had, to all intents and purposes, died (with the collapse of NortonVilliersTriumph in 1977). Meriden triumph may have crawled on until 1982 but that's not an industry.

    I'm not sure that you can really compare any of the Honda Dreams with British bikes in the way that you have: one featured a pressed steel monocoque while the other used tube steel - of course the monocoque used thinner steel - just as the Spitfire used thinner aluminium compared to the Hurricane... The only British bike of this sort was the earlier Ariel Arrow which was a dreadful motorcycle which was inferior in every way.

    However, what you can compare are the engines, electrics and quality control. I owned a Meriden Triumph Tiger, it had porous castings, dodgy bearings, awful paint, kept cracking the tank at the front mount and as for the electrics! There was not a British motorcycle of this period that this was not true of. I know, I owned most of them. The Japanese were endlessly reliable and, when loved, lasted far better than the British.

    I'm acutely aware of the myth that is being perpetrated here, I was a believer myself for many years but the reality simply didn't bear it out. Towards the end, the British were desperately overextending mid fifties designs while the Japanese were producing motorcycles that were a generation or more ahead. I'm really sorry to arrive here and be quite so contentious but it seems I have.
    I hope that's OK. However, while I'm at it, the Goldbird is wonderful, Thanks!

  3. #153
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    Morgan might well still be wholly British owned.

    I can see the two points of contrast in Swiss watch manufacture and Chinese watch manufacture, emanating as much as anything from the timing of their respective entries into the arena of watchmaking and more to the point, of the scale of that watchmaking, and the two rather opposing cost bases (labour costs).

    There is little reason that the Swiss cannot maintain a position on several levels of the industry, the question is how important the vision and association with the craftsman or woman the prospective or indeed potential buyer is, or shall become.

    At the upper end, this is often regarded as more important as a high end watch more personalized, for a collection of reasons, and attributes of both the buyer and seller. It is not a simple cost-price relationship, rather one about what is wanted and the way of obtaining it, which encompasses the personal experience and doubtless one with the 'heritage' and 'understanding' vagaries and details.

    That this will be identified with in China is an interesting question in relation to Switzerland, rather than independently. An example that is of note and perhaps even instructive, is that of Japan and it's watch industry's productions and progress over the last 50 years or so.

    The independent crafting is not really a feature, even in the higher end models [of the Japanese models, and even many Swiss high-end models now].

    What is important is reliability and a reputation over time for precision across a range of manufactures. The old nation/production/quality relationship and perception overall[of the product].

    If the Swiss continue to set up in China and keep some portion of production in Switzerland, even if it is QC, and some assembly (contract workers even), the name and associated qualities and management are strengths and the cost matter not so deep[ly ] [as (instead of than)] the other very cheap[est] models.

    Inextricably linked with this is the definition of 'made in', and, further variations may be exploited leading to not a linear increase in Chinese productions or convergence in a linear nor a very clear way; given the areas remaining for investigation, branding and exploitation by the [respective chinese and particularly swiss brands]. A central indicator is the ETA production in China, yet Swiss watches. This is fairly recent on a larger scale, and I do not see Chinese production separating and competing along the lines described. It will be more subtle and nuanced as to origin, moreover[,] it will take considerable time before the Chinese brand competes with the Swiss, and given the Swiss involvement/integration and ownership in China [yet with the continued apparent efforts] for the maintenance of the Swiss identity and watches.

    Furthermore, China is no Japan. [ ;) ]

    Best regards,
    AP:)

    [edit in brackets]

  4. #154
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt
    It is difficult to be sure which Dream you are talking about; the designation goes back to 1956. As you mention the late seventies Superdream I will assume that we are talking about a similar vintage. I'm not sure exactly which British motorcycles you are comparing this with as, by the time of the Superdream, The British motorcycle industry had, to all intents and purposes, died (with the collapse of NortonVilliersTriumph in 1977). Meriden triumph may have crawled on until 1982 but that's not an industry.

    I'm not sure that you can really compare any of the Honda Dreams with British bikes in the way that you have: one featured a pressed steel monocoque while the other used tube steel - of course the monocoque used thinner steel - just as the Spitfire used thinner aluminium compared to the Hurricane... The only British bike of this sort was the earlier Ariel Arrow which was a dreadful motorcycle which was inferior in every way.

    However, what you can compare are the engines, electrics and quality control. I owned a Meriden Triumph Tiger, it had porous castings, dodgy bearings, awful paint, kept cracking the tank at the front mount and as for the electrics! There was not a British motorcycle of this period that this was not true of. I know, I owned most of them. The Japanese were endlessly reliable and, when loved, lasted far better than the British.

    I'm acutely aware of the myth that is being perpetrated here, I was a believer myself for many years but the reality simply didn't bear it out. Towards the end, the British were desperately overextending mid fifties designs while the Japanese were producing motorcycles that were a generation or more ahead. I'm really sorry to arrive here and be quite so contentious but it seems I have.
    I hope that's OK. However, while I'm at it, the Goldbird is wonderful, Thanks!
    The older brother of a friend of mine had a Honda Dream in 1963 and you could still buy new BSAs and Ariels in 1963. The Hondas got some really bad press in the early 1960s and the British bike industry was still quite strong. Certainly in South Yorkshire, the police were running Ariel Leaders into the 1970s. BSA were manufacturing until 1973 and Ariel until 1967.

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  5. #155

    Re: Seagull movements.

    If we are looking at motorcycles as a comparison, I think the period from '67 to '77 tells the story better with just two bikes, the Norton Commando 750 and the Honda CB750. When the Commando came out on '67 it was considered awesome and my Daytona 500 was soon replaced by a Commando 750 fastback that I loved. Then in '69 Honda brought out the CB750 and although "true bikers" derided it and hoped it would go away, in truth it was the final nail in the British bike industry. By '77 the Commando was gone and the format of the CB750 had dictated how all future sports bikes had to be.

    When we talk of the Swiss mechanical watch movement industry, there is a profound difference. The huge upswing in demand for mechanical movements caught everyone by suprise and the hiatus in investment and development during the "quartz" years is still very much being felt.
    The Swiss industry, as typified by Swatch group is growing as fast as it can within the limits of resources; financial, space and trained staff, but I believe that they realise they just cannot make enough movements to satisfy all of the demand, so have chosen to take what product they can build up-market and maximise their profit by having a total stranglehold on the luxury watch market. The market below say £500 - £750 will be abandoned for Seiko, Citizen or whoever to have - without their "Swiss" movements!
    As watch enthusiasts, this could mean the demise of the affordable, independent non Swiss-built brands we all admire so much, as they all struggle to maintain movement supply at any price. Until someone makes and we accept alternatives to the mainstay movements - 2824-2, 2836-2, 2893-2 & 7750 as a minimum, the future for freedom of choice and independent watch makers looks bleak to me.

  6. #156

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffD
    The market below say £500 - £750 will be abandoned for Seiko, Citizen or whoever to have - without their "Swiss" movements!
    Is there anything to stop Seiko or Citizen making watches in Switzerland?

    Even though they might not consider it worth the trouble.

  7. #157
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    Concerning SEAGULL I've remembered what I've read in a German watch magazine short time ago. Then I've searched for the thread dealing with ASKANIA watches (Berlin/ Germany).

    Basically I think there's nothing wrong with a Chinese movement just because it's Chinese. It depends on the quality and the price and the relation between theses aspects.

    But I dislike watch brands drawing the curtain over the movement's provenance - normally in connection with ridiculous prices.

    ASKANIA for example offers a chrono, their "watch of the year" model with reference to Berlin, with a chronograph movement for 3.495 Euro (<=> 2,800 GBP or 5,500 USD). This model was discussed before:
    Quote Originally Posted by mr1973
    http://www.watchtime.ch/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17062&start=0
    According to Askania, it will be a NOS all original Venus movement.
    But many doubt that ;-)
    And even if so, the price is MUCH too high for a pure marketing brand imho.
    On pertinacious request ASKANIA told the movement is purchased Eurosina, Switzerland. What they not told, is that Eurosina is just the European distribution branch of Seagull, China (even though the name euro + sina is suggesting this).
    Actually the movement is the copy of the 1960ies Venus 175.
    Of course, if you want to sell a watch for 3,500 Euro you avoid to tell the prospective buyer the movement is of Chinese origin.
    Especially if other brands offer watches with the same movement for a break of this price.

    My Uhr-Kraft 'AirCop' chrono for example has (supposedly) the same Seagull movement. The first pic was posted before, the second one shows the back of my Uhr-Kraft. Apart from the question of design/ taste, the Uhr-Kraft is only 495 Euro (1/7 of the ASKANIA chrono) and of quite good quality. The movement keeps time reliable. Of course I don't compare it with my vintage Venus 178 Navitimer, a contemporary ETA 7750 or even with the great Rolex 4130 movement - but for this aspect it's much cheaper!




    My comment on ASKANIA as a German born and living by the western side of the Rhine - closer to Amsterdam and Paris than to our beloved "Reichshauptstadt" Berlin - my personal comment is: typical Berlin - all hat and no cattle!

    .

  8. #158
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffD
    If we are looking at motorcycles as a comparison, ..........
    Been thinking long and hard about this and my final conclusion is that it is nigh impossible to compare the watch, with the motorcycle trades. One reason is that there was never a 'quartz revolution' equivalent in the bike market.

    Everything you say is absolutely correct, and I am not going to repeat it. Basically we will no longer be able to get cheap Swiss watches in the same way that there are no cheap Rolexes. And why should there be any?

    What put the nails in the British motorcycle coffin were, horizontally split crank-cases (doh :roll: ), four cylinders and (double) overhead cams.



    But this is what fired me ... as much squirt as your bum could handle. Frame? What frame? Brakes in the wet? ...brakes? Forget it.

    My belief is that the manufacturers should give people what they want and going Chinese as far as mechanical watches go, is not what the people want.

    Let’s look at it another way, if you were buying a quartz watch … would you buy Chinese or Japanese?

    john

  9. #159
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    The older brother of a friend of mine had a Honda Dream in 1963 and you could still buy new BSAs and Ariels in 1963. The Hondas got some really bad press in the early 1960s and the British bike industry was still quite strong. Certainly in South Yorkshire, the police were running Ariel Leaders into the 1970s. BSA were manufacturing until 1973 and Ariel until 1967.
    All of this is true (well, I don't know about your friend's brother) but the fact is that in 1956 (when the Dream was launched) BSA group were the World's largest motorcycle manufacturer and in 1973 they were bankrupt. The total collapse of the British motorcycle industry happened. By the end of it the Japanese had not only taken their market share but almost doubled the size of the market itself. If we are to learn from history we have to try to compare similar historical events.

    I guess my claim is that the Chinese are not the threat to the Swiss industry that the Japanese were. If however you believe the myth that the Japanese motorcycle industry somehow systematically (and mysteriously) destroyed the British motorcycle industry with inferior products then the future belongs to Alpha, Sea-Gull and their ilk.

    I'm not so sure personally.

  10. #160
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt
    The older brother of a friend of mine had a Honda Dream in 1963 and you could still buy new BSAs and Ariels in 1963. The Hondas got some really bad press in the early 1960s and the British bike industry was still quite strong. Certainly in South Yorkshire, the police were running Ariel Leaders into the 1970s. BSA were manufacturing until 1973 and Ariel until 1967.
    All of this is true (well, I don't know about your friend's brother) but the fact is that in 1956 (when the Dream was launched) BSA group were the World's largest motorcycle manufacturer and in 1973 they were bankrupt. The total collapse of the British motorcycle industry happened. By the end of it the Japanese had not only taken their market share but almost doubled the size of the market itself. If we are to learn from history we have to try to compare similar historical events.

    I guess my claim is that the Chinese are not the threat to the Swiss industry that the Japanese were. If however you believe the myth that the Japanese motorcycle industry somehow systematically (and mysteriously) destroyed the British motorcycle industry with inferior products then the future belongs to Alpha, Sea-Gull and their ilk.

    I'm not so sure personally.
    I can't find anywhere I said this. I did say that initially Honda bikes were made from thinner gauge steel at first (true) and that there was a popular belief that the much higher revving engines would not last very long. There was a display of snobbery from owners of British bikes towards owners of Japanese bikes.

    However, my analogy about bikes was simply to highlight some parallels between watch movements and bikes, not to start a detailed discussion about the history of the British motorcycle industry. :wink:

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  11. #161

    Re: Seagull movements.

    I have tried to intervene in this debate with a more historical perspective, with no success :( . My view is that there have been many occasions in which industries belonging to specific countries just suddenly shift to others. For me, it all started when I learned that London, today´s main financial center, was in the XIX century the main watchmaking center in the world. So...yes, I do believe that China has started to make decent movements, and that in 10 years they will start to design their own movements...We only have to wait 10 years.. :wink:

    Cheers

    PS: I cannot help you in the bike debate. No idea about bikes .

  12. #162
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by angeche
    I have tried to intervene in this debate with a more historical perspective, with no success :( . My view is that there have been many occasions in which industries belonging to specific countries just suddenly shift to others. For me, it all started when I learned that London, today´s main financial center, was in the XIX century the main watchmaking center in the world. So...yes, I do believe that China has started to make decent movements, and that in 10 years they will start to design their own movements...We only have to wait 10 years.. :wink:
    Cheers
    Perhaps in 10 years London will not be the main financial anymore, too.
    Referring to their market value, among the 5 biggest banking houses in the world, three are Chinese. Among the 10 biggest banking houses, there 5 Chinese and 1 Russian. The market value of current world's no. one, Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, is about twice as high as London's HSBC or Spanish Banco Santander, which is the most valuable bank in the EURO zone. Germany's Deutsche Bank is not even among the world's biggest 20.
    Poor old old world ... .

    Quote Originally Posted by angeche
    PS: I cannot help you in the bike debate. No idea about bikes .
    So do I, but a friend of mine is Ducati lover and owner, so I made several photos of the Ducati watches stand at Baselworld this year.
    BTW, the fair hostess - the tall girl with Ducati leather jacket in the foreground - was IMO one of the most appealing girls I've seen there. Perhaps actually because she is not the dolly-bird kind of fair hostesses as usual.

  13. #163

    Re: Seagull movements.

    I think the bottom line is that the "Swiss Made" appellation, watches and movements, is being taken to the £1,000 plus market.
    My personal 'passion' with watches is based around them being superb examples of precision engineering packaged as a useful, attractive and wearable item, therefore an acceptable quality mechanical movement is a must. If we want the smaller, independent, lower mark-up brands that are so popular with the WIS community to continue to be available in the future, I believe we have to start accepting that they won't have ETA movements for much longer. If the likes of Fricker are happy to put out watches with these Seagull movements, that's ok with me. As the demand for better finishing and QC grows along with the size of the market as ETA availability shrinks, hopefully the product will respond to meet the markets requirements.

  14. #164
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    The interesting thing about the Seagull movements (or any other Chinese movement) is that I can get them and have them finished (refinished) in Switzerland or Germany, have my own calibre number stamped on them and call them Swiss or German.

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  15. #165

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    The interesting thing about the Seagull movements (or any other Chinese movement) is that I can get them and have them finished (refinished) in Switzerland or Germany, have my own calibre number stamped on them and call them Swiss or German.

    Eddie
    And that surely is the key to acceptance. If every movement is being QC checked, the desired level of spit and polish applied and then finished, lubed and regulated by known German or Swiss firm, hopefully most of the objections will disappear. It may not be any cheaper than an ETA equivalent has been in the recent past but at least they will be more available.

  16. #166
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    The interesting thing about the Seagull movements (or any other Chinese movement) is that I can get them and have them finished (refinished) in Switzerland or Germany, have my own calibre number stamped on them and call them Swiss or German.

    Eddie
    Exactly.

    And, there is nothing to deter or stop horizontal integration with firms in China, or subsidiaries (as is already the case) of Swiss firms undertaking this and thereby maintaining a modicum and quality of control of both watches produced for the overall market for watches, and their particular productions.

    Unless and until the criteria governing and to some extent safeguarding 'Swiss Made' is tightened up to meet the perceptions of most persons buying something with a country of origin indication, the respective relationships between firms in China and those in Switzerland making watches will become more integrated if not more complex in nature.

    China has the capacity and particular conditions (cost base and capacity for volume and so forth) and Switzerland has the heritage, association and notariety that is being 'managed' as such.

    AP.

  17. #167
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by A.Pottinger
    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    The interesting thing about the Seagull movements (or any other Chinese movement) is that I can get them and have them finished (refinished) in Switzerland or Germany, have my own calibre number stamped on them and call them Swiss or German.

    Eddie
    Exactly.

    And, there is nothing to deter or stop horizontal integration with firms in China, or subsidiaries (as is already the case) of Swiss firms undertaking this and thereby maintaining a modicum and quality of control of both watches produced for the overall market for watches, and their particular productions.

    Unless and until the criteria governing and to some extent safeguarding 'Swiss Made' is tightened up to meet the perceptions of most persons buying something with a country of origin indication, the respective relationships between firms in China and those in Switzerland making watches will become more integrated if not more complex in nature.

    China has the capacity and particular conditions (cost base and capacity for volume and so forth) and Switzerland has the heritage, association and notariety that is being 'managed' as such.

    AP.
    Well put Mr.P. :)

  18. #168
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    I can't find anywhere I said this. I did say that initially Honda bikes were made from thinner gauge steel at first (true) and that there was a popular belief that the much higher revving engines would not last very long. There was a display of snobbery from owners of British bikes towards owners of Japanese bikes.

    However, my analogy about bikes was simply to highlight some parallels between watch movements and bikes, not to start a detailed discussion about the history of the British motorcycle industry. :wink:
    You are absolutely right, It's amazing just how quickly one can lose sight of the woods for the trees.

    One final thought though: Harley Davidson avoided the Japanese onslaught far more effectively than the British did without improving their product much for many years. I suspect that when the Swiss start to be more threatened by the Chinese they may employ similar strategies...

  19. #169

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt
    One final thought though: Harley Davidson avoided the Japanese onslaught far more effectively than the British did without improving their product much for many years. I suspect that when the Swiss start to be more threatened by the Chinese they may employ similar strategies...
    Not strictly true, at the end of the AMF period quality was dire and sales appalling, after selling to a group of investors in the early 80's they struggled on but were only saved by the imposition of a 43% import levy on bikes over 700cc

  20. #170

    Re: Seagull movements.

    No promises, because there's a ton of stuff in the queue, but perhaps a mid-summer competition with one of the Seagull movements cased up in the Mondaine recycled brass case (pictured below) and an appropriate f&j dial as the prize.



    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:28.

  21. #171
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    Looks moral to me (customary) and a nice case.

    AP :)

  22. #172
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    You're a gent, Bob.

    Jim :)

  23. #173

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Here's the font (numerals 1-10; 11 is 10 :on top of 1; and 12 is 10 on top of 2).



    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:28.

  24. #174
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    Looks neat, and different.

    Yaat, yee, saam, saay, nng...
    Other pron. possible too. ;)

    AP :)

  25. #175

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by A.Pottinger
    Looks neat, and different.

    Yaat, yee, saam, saay, nng...
    Other pron. possible too. ;)

    AP :)
    Are they the correct characters? (Simple.)

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  26. #176
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    for 1-10, yes.
    Traditional and Simple.

    AP :)

  27. #177

    Re: Seagull movements.

    A fasinating read with great photos, Thanks Bob
    I have had a seagull powered watch for a few years now and i have never had a problem with it after i fitted the rotor retaing ring properly !
    I see this firm as offering a good product and as they have the ability to make double tourbillions these days i see no reason to doupt there enginering craft at all.

  28. #178
    Grand Master abraxas's Avatar
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    .
    How do Seagull and Hangzhou compare to a ETA: An in-depth look ...
    http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=216945

    john

  29. #179
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    A truly superb post, I'm just disappointed he didn't add to our threads on here. :(

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  30. #180

    Re: Seagull movements.

    My only negative encounter with the Chinese movements is a tendency for some movements to gain erratically due to balance wheel overbanking. I have found this mainly due to lack of lubrication on the outer side of the mainspring where it contacts the barrel, easy fix and then they can keep time to within a few secs a day.

  31. #181
    seagullnigel
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    I have two Seagull ST5, one with date, which I bought from my Chinese friend in Shanghai two weeks ago.
    I sent the one without the date for servicing as I don't think it has been used much since new and I guess it is from the 1970s.
    I am wearing the one with the date right now and I will probably send that for servicing after the other one comes back.
    Although I am British I have been living in China on and off since 1994 and have strong ties here. Seagull seems to have an interesting history and at first I wanted one of the 1963 airforce replicas but after doing extensive research I could not verify the source of these watches to my satisfaction. Briefly they are NOT made by the Tianjin factory and no Seagull shop anywhere in the world sells them. It seems they MAY be "somebody's" special order with the Shenzhen factory.
    Anyway I have a friend in Shanghai who collects Chinese watches, he has hundreds, and he sold me these two I have now. When I can I will try to get some good photographs.
    Is there any interest in vintage Chinese watches on any forums?

  32. #182
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    hi nigel, not seen too many chinese vintage watches on other forums, but havent looked too hard :lol:

    would be interested to see your collection though

    cheers
    mike :wink:

  33. #183

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Very Interesting

  34. #184

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Extremely interesting, thanks

  35. #185

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Stick with swiss or japanese ,Seagull will soon end up like all china products . no quality control
    pete

  36. #186

    Re: Seagull movements.

    I came across this link, which may provide some information.

    http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/i ... e=Site_Map

    Cheers

    Peter

  37. #187
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro44
    Stick with swiss or japanese ,Seagull will soon end up like all china products . no quality control
    pete
    What makes you say that? The only questionable watches I've gotten that had Sea-Gull movements were eBay/offbrand and I think it was for two reasons. Those companies buy the factory rejects and lower quality (A) movements and you don't know what the conditions were when cased up. So those watches are pretty much a crap shoot. But Sea-Gull branded watches uses only the highest quality (AAA) movements.

    Cheers,
    gigfy

  38. #188

    Re: Seagull movements.

    This is a brilliant post, the trouble is that ETA do not let you buy movements so any budding watch maker is movement limited. I think the fact that the Seagull is so close to the ETA is fantastic news. I agree with a previous poster that the inside of a Seiko watch is generally disasterous....and although reliable Miyota' s are similar.

    I think any competition to the ETA hegemany is a good thing and Bob has given us a bit of confidence that more is on the way.. :P

  39. #189
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    There not for me

  40. #190
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    This is my romanian Orex watch with a Seagull ST5 movement which is very beautiful in my opinion.

  41. #191
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by mihaixp
    This is my romanian Orex watch with a Seagull ST5 movement which is very beautiful in my opinion.
    That's very interesting, how old is that watch? The reason I ask is that it looks quite old and although I'm aware of Seagull having made movements for several decades, I thought they only started being used in Europe not more than 5 years ago.
    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  42. #192

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaixp
    This is my romanian Orex watch with a Seagull ST5 movement which is very beautiful in my opinion.
    That's very interesting, how old is that watch? The reason I ask is that it looks quite old and although I'm aware of Seagull having made movements for several decades, I thought they only started being used in Europe not more than 5 years ago.
    Eddie
    I'd think a striped Sea-Gull ST5 movement would put the watch in the late 60s to early-mid 1970s.

  43. #193
    Master Thewatchbloke's Avatar
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    What an excellent read - fascinating stuff! As I couldn't possibly add anything to the discussion regarding swiss vs chinese movements I thought I would clarify the Honda Dream info. The Honda Dream that your freind had Eddie would have been a C72/77 or a CB72/77.The C72 was a twin cylinder 250cc single carb model with a 360 degree crank (firing each cylinder on alternate strokes), electric start, pressed steel frame and swing link front suspension (honda cub stylee). The CB72 model was called the SuperDream which had a 180 degree crank, twin carbs a tubular frame and telescopic forks - I owned and rode a 1959 ex press demonstrator one in the 70's. The C77/CB77 models were identical to the C72/CB72's apart from having a capacity of 305cc. After riding my CB72 (with CB77 barrel and pistons!) for many years along with my BSA C15 and Royal Enfeild Continental GT I could see why the bike riding population switched to Japanese machines.

  44. #194
    Master
    Join Date
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    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaixp
    This is my romanian Orex watch with a Seagull ST5 movement which is very beautiful in my opinion.
    That's very interesting, how old is that watch? The reason I ask is that it looks quite old and although I'm aware of Seagull having made movements for several decades, I thought they only started being used in Europe not more than 5 years ago.
    Eddie
    From 1975 to aprox. 2000 there was a romanian watch brand called Orex (ora exacta=>in english: the exact time). The first generation was designed with the movement above (seagull ST5) and was manufactured from 1975 to 1985. As far as I can see, nowadays there are only low quality versions of this movement sold (they are not quite that finished), that's why I consider myself fortunate to own a piece of my country's history..

  45. #195
    Journeyman
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    Quality control IS possible, but my sources tell me there are many batches of SG movements from 1-year lifespan to 100+.

  46. #196
    Journeyman
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    UK
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    Fantastic photography and insights! This kind of thread is what I was hoping to find when I joined TZ, but I didn't know it was here until now. Brilliant! and thank you.

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