Reply With QuoteAs I have posted a few posts earlier, this is what Griff would have called cat muck.Originally Posted by Tifa
Really, why not?
I imagine many have claimed belief to join and it still worked for them.
As I have posted a few posts earlier, this is what Griff would have called cat muck.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Cant stand them and see them as incredibly dangerous and toxic.
I actually spotted them without even knowing they existed when I worked for a family business not long after leaving school.
They leave a trace created by their unfairness of giving work and benefits to their own.
I knew something was off so I searched the company addresses and low and behold one of their properties came up as a masons lodge and the pub right next to their warehouse was nicknamed the masons arms lol.
God knows what the wife gets up to in her WI meetings as well?
I have a personal tale of how my dad was shafted because he refused to join but I will refrain from sharing… too personal.
Thank you, I literally had that exact conversation with myself in my head, which is precisely why I had to acknowledge Montello’s reasoning. I hadn’t personally considered the comparison before.
l
Edited to add that it’s auspicious to see some positive replies as well.
While some of us may well be less open minded, more opinionated or even simply less tolerant than others, it’s reassuring to see that we forum members as a whole can present both sides of an ‘issue’, even if some of us as individuals perhaps cannot actually acknowledge them.
Last edited by spuds; 8th February 2024 at 22:18.
I want to live in a society where people of any gender or religious views, or not, have equal access to all spaces.
I also want to operate in a business environment where fairness and meritocracy applies and membership of a secret society doesn’t tilt the playing field.
Really? You seem p1ssed off with any direct ugly experiences that have been received.
I have no direct experience myself, but the whole Freemason things stinks. But then again I hate the monarchy, ceremonial sh1t for no reason, the honours system, middle class commoners behaving like the pomp and circumstance of royalty, all wrapped up like some charitable do-gooders.
I hope you have fun with your cheap dinners and cut price rosso vino. Now, you really have someone to focus your displeasure on.
I’m an open-minded kind of chap and don’t mind a bit of Satanism, but one has to draw the line somewhere. This must be stamped out and the sooner the better.
I agree with all of the above although I (inexplicably even to myself) I don’t have any issue with single-sex organisations for some reason?
I don’t have a problem with the Women’s Institute either though so I don’t think it’s a chauvinistic thing?
Off on a tangent I I know but do you have an equal issue with say, the WI?
Or single-religion social clubs?
I’m not ignoring your comment re: business relationships by the way, I can’t express a valid opinion because I don’t have any personal knowledge nor direct experience but surely it’s only a form of ‘networking’?
That’s quite an opinion for someone with no direct experience.
There’s a fundamental difference between ugly opinions and ugly experiences in my opinion.
An ugly experience forms a justified and valid opinion….
An unjustifiable ugly opinion is bordering on bigotry.
I haven’t got a problem with anyone expressing their opinions but I do have an issue with people being discourteous and disrespecting the opinions of others.
As I stated in a previous post, I don’t agree with much of Montello’s opinions but I have considered what he said and I’ve respectfully acknowledged his reasoning.
My “issue” with Montello’s posts hasn’t been his opinions, it’s been (what I interpreted as) his contempt for the opinions of others.
As for your ”have fun with your cheap dinners and cut price rosso vino. Now, you really have someone to focus your displeasure on.” comment, I think that probably says more about you than me so I thank you for your well wishes and assure you that I have no displeasure for anyone on the forum.
I’m a grown man and perfectly capable of disagreeing with someone’s opinion but still acknowledging and respecting it without trying to belittle them; evidently you’re not.
The industry I work out its rife, seen many a person progress even though they were not fit for the role due to a certain style of handshake...
We all discriminate, we just don't like to admit it. We would all give a leg up to a brother who has fallen on hard times. I think that there is a certain amount of jealousy of freemasons giving each other a leg up in life. It happens everywhere though, lodge membership or not. It's who you know not what you know.
As for single sex spaces, I think that they are a great idea for those that want to use them. I have heard members of both sexes that it's nice to get from the other lot!
Just for clarification, I'm not on the square and unlikely to ever be invited.
How about the Rotary Club?
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Add to them the Lions. They do very good charitable work around here, and elsewhere too....
"Lions are ordinary people who do extraordinary things to help others and support good causes. Together Lions members volunteer over 500,000 hours of service and raise around £9 million annually to support the needs of local communities across the British Isles. Lions enjoy organising remarkable events and memorable fundraising activities. Individually, this commitment amounts to an average of 1 hour a week.Lions Clubs of the British Isles has 600 clubs and 10,000 members located in Scotland, England, and Wales, the Isle of Man, and the Bailiwicks of Guernsey and Jersey. Every Lions Club supports a range of good causes and projects in its local community where you can get involved. Wherever you live, work or travel throughout the British Isles, you are likely to come across Lions members and the projects we support.
The organisation is part of Lions Clubs International which has 1.4 million members in over 210 countries, making it the largest service club organisation in the world. Because we are local, we serve the unique needs of the communities in which we live. As we are global, we can address community challenges wherever they occur".
Best Regards - Peter
I'd hate to be with you when you're on your own.
I know you are defending your club but really ... you have never seen or experienced this? You must have been aware of the issues related to Police officers and judges being compromised by their memberships ...
Google "Operation Tiberious" ... here is a link and the opening paragraph: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operat...%20officers%22.
Operation Tiberius was a 2002 internal Metropolitan Police investigation, leaked to The Independent in 2014. It found that criminal organisations had used Freemasonry connections to "recruit corrupt officers".[1]
The cronyism is the worst aspect and something that has had a direct negative effect on my family.
The discrimination based on gender and religion for a private members club I can pretty much overlook ... but I still find it odd in this day and age ...
I agree with every word of this.
I hadn’t considered The Rotary Club but I certainly will: The Lions was actually my first thought.
Years ago I installed a patio and a driveway for an older guy, he lived a few streets away and was just thoroughly decent: he reminded me very much of my wife’s father who had then recently passed away.
He was quite active in our local Lions.
So every year I’d see hie and his wife manning the Lions hotdog stand when the Christmas lights were turned on in our High Street.
For years, I always put a few hundred quid in an envelope and dropped it into their bucket.
(That’s not me “giving it the big’un”, I’m just stating a fact).
Anyway, this goes on for a few years, but one year my wife is declared ‘five years cancer free’ and my family and I had had a good year, so I decide to put £1,000 in the envelope.
I didn’t know beforehand but when my wife and I get there we’re told that this guy had passed away during the year before.
Even more reason to stick the extra in I think, “in his memory” kind of thing.
The next year I was on their website considering joining and I read how much they’d raised at The Christmas Lights the year before.
It was £800 or something and I was so disappointed in the (local branch of the) organisation that I started to look elsewhere.
I appreciate it every branch is going to be the same but there was clearly a bad apple at my local one.
I’m honestly not (knowingly?) blindly defending ‘my club’ as you put it, and I’m clearly not wording my replies correctly if it appears that I am.
Summarily:
I do believe that there is something “out there” that is more knowledgeable and more powerful than we mortal human beings are.
I really don’t want to start an argument about different beliefs so let’s say I believe in the colour blue.
I have no issues with anyone who believes in red, green or orange as long as they are peaceful.
Nor do I have any issue with anyone who believes that colours are really a fragment of the imagination: again as long as they believe so peacefully.
I do not dismiss, disrespect nor belittle anyone for believing that pink is orange: it’s their life and their belief.
I also believe that any human being will choose to help someone they know over someone they don’t: I can well imagine that this does happen within Freemasonry although I have no personal experience of it.
However I did used to attend a ‘Breakfast Club’ where several local business owners steered me towards potential customers but I don’t read of anyone having an issue with that.
And no, the breakfast club wasn’t open to all, you had to be invited to join that too.
I’m semi-retired with more clients and workload than I can handle so I have no need of a ‘leg up’: I’m not a ‘modern networker’ but isn’t ‘cronyism’ kind of the point of things like breakfast clubs and even Linked In?
Obviously I’ve heard many a negative ‘Urban Legend’ and I am sorry to hear of the negative effects your family have experienced: I fully acknowledge your informed opinion, I just have no personal negative nor even positive experiences I can add to this discussion, I was simply asking if other members had informed opinions to express too.
I do also consider myself fortunate to have a little time and money available to help others: and that’s inherently my reason for looking for an organisation to join.
I do have one personal ‘tale’ of Freemasonry though.
One of my ex MD’s was VERY anti-FM and would often cite them as the reason his younger brothers firm went bust.
(He never divulged any details, just his passionate hatred for Freemasonry).
It eventually comes to light that his brother was a fully functioning cocaine addict and that was why he never won any jobs, he was in debt etc etc etc.
Fast forward a few years and my ex MD is ‘on the square’ himself.
To clarify the above, that tale is IN NO WAY a hidden dig at Montello nor his family, my ex MD was, is, and always will be an utter prick, Freemason or not!!
Edited to add that I’m off for a while now to read up on Operation Tiberius…
It might not change my mind but I do like to know what I’m getting into!
Also though that was twenty odd years ago?
Is Freemasonry really still as powerful as it was, or even was once thought to be?
Last edited by spuds; 9th February 2024 at 19:30.
Spuds, you seem a decent bloke and so I’m not going to push this point any further.
But just to point out that your breakfast club probably didn’t exclude anyone based on their gender or religious beliefs.
I’m sure you and your fellow masons do many a good turn but I can’t believe you have no awareness of some of the less savoury side of things.
Last edited by Montello; 9th February 2024 at 20:08.
Montello thanks for your post, you seem like a decent guy too and while we have our differences I can fully understand your reasoning.
I assure you though that I’ve no direct knowledge nor personal experience of anything unsavoury, just many an ‘Urban Legend!!’
Having now read a little on Operation Tiberius now though this only reinforces my opinion that like anything these I days guess, there’s good and bad sides to it: one just has to decide which way they think the scales tip for themselves.
PS Breakfast club comment duly noted and conceded, although in my opinion it’s still a form of cronyism which so many claim to object to, albeit a diluted one.
Would a homeless guy with mental health problems and no paid job be welcomed into the fold? Genuine question. I have a close friend who lives in a Kairos Hostel in London. He's ex armed forces, suffers from PTSD and is a recovered alcoholic. He's intelligent and erudite, currently spending his days reading, meditating and volunteering at several charities that assist those with serious drug and alcohol problems. I'd be surprised if lives haven't been saved directly due to his support. He'd surely be an asset to a charity focused organisation, but he's a bit scruffy and doesn't have two beans so my feeling is that he wouldn't be seen as being the right 'type'. It all comes across as being a preserve for the well-off professional.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
He would be welcome assuming he can pay the joining fees which can vary from lodge to lodge and chuck a quid into the charity box.
As for his mental health, the Masonic Charity Foundation can help him with that and other benefits and family too.
You are expected to wear a dark suite at meetings, so yes some reasonable turnout.
Freemasonry is not for just the 'well off profession'. All are welcome
Indeed. They haven’t forgotten their roots (masons) and you would probably be surprised to se the spread of society that is represented.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
How much are the joining fees on average? Are there any options for those on low incomes?
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Very similar to me.
It's been a good route to meet new people who are decent.
I was previously in the military and there is always that immediate link/commonality when you meet someone who was also in the military. Freemasonry at times seems similar in that you have that immediate commonality.
It can vary, some lodges meet on average once a month, others less.
My lodge is £175 others £75 annually.
Once your a member, and you can't pay in one payout, provisions can be made to spread the cost. When I was Almoner, I helped many that were in financial or mental difficulties.
Ta, he can access all of the MH support that he needs, it was more about what he could offer. The fees would be prohibitive, as would the need to turn up in a suit and believe in a supreme being.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
I don’t know any masons but I don’t understand the middle class bit. Worked in Covent Garden for a decade and whenever they clear out from Freemasons Hall it’s like an episode of Eastenders. Maybe the posh ones drive.
In the Sunday Times today, a puff piece that talks about Oxford educated and bankers, mathematicians and engineering PhD students and not a lot about the ordinary working people.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d...f7b19d1de23c25
I'm a Freemason.
Although I am aware the organisation has a historically long and sometimes controversial history, today it is much different. I have never, ever, even heard a whisper of anything less than 100% scrupulously above board and philanthropic.
The entire focus is on being a positive force for good and charity work. My Lodge is quite large - around 100 members of whom at least sixty are active and regularly attend.
Discussing business, politics and religion is expressly banned at the festive boards (ie the meals after ceremonies).
The ceremonies themselves are basically really just theatre, a bit like watching a show. There is a lot of emphasis on accurately learning lines and moves (if you are participating), but there is plenty of good humour too.
As others have noted, the Freemasons are the second biggest charity donators in the country after the National Lottery. That is really quite incredible. They work nationally and locally - we have recently built a brand new centre for Scouts and Guiding that will be a fabulous facility for thousands of young people over many years to come.
When my brother in law (also a mason) died suddenly seven years ago, the support given to my sister and the three young children he left behind was nothing short of incredible and extremely rapid.
Freemasonry isn't a secret society. It's a society with secrets. There is a big difference. These days it really is very transparent and philanthropic - think The Rotary Club with a bit more play acting...
So clever my foot fell off.
Out of interest, is all the charity money from member donations? I've been part of charities which have received significant donations from the freemasons (7-figures across them) but I did always wonder just how much the members must be donating to make this happen, seems a bit more than passing around a hat at the end of dinner! Is there an expected minimum?
No one makes you donate but there's a lot of fundraising goes on from raffles, social evenings, Ladies nights,
etc. Mounts up to thousands, we have about 7 Lodges donating just in Middlesbrough.
We keep the air ambulance flying 👍
The vast majority is from member donations. There is no expected minimum or maximum. Lodges also run often large fundraising events. Usually what happens is each province will have a fundraising target that they will work towards over several years. It is worth noting that there are over 180,000 Freemasons in England, and nearly 30,000 in Scotland. It's a big organisation.
It is an altruistic organisation, and I am pleased the charities you are involved in have benefited substantially.
The thing is that a great deal of the funding, donations and work that the Freemasons is done quite quietly. There is no seeking glory or public thanks. It's just good people trying to do some good and help out.
And as has been correctly noted above, the fraternity is the second biggest giver to charity in the UK after the National Lottery. I think that's quite an incredible achievement.
It's easy to find out more here:
https://www.ugle.org.uk/discover-freemasonry/what-is-freemasonry
From the website:
What is different about the way Freemasons give to charity?
It is the sheer scale. We are one of the biggest charitable givers in the country and gave £51.1m to charities in 2020 alone.
The Masonic Charitable Foundation, the Freemasons’ Charity – our national charitable grant giving arm, tackles some of the most significant challenges facing society, in particular, reducing loneliness in later life and ensuring a positive future for young children. We work in partnership with some of the biggest charities in the country to deliver our support.
Freemasonry also does a huge amount for medical research into treatments for cancer, diabetes, heart disease and a whole range of other conditions. In addition it makes donations to support those affected by overseas disasters as well as those at home, such as the Grenfell Tower disaster.
During the pandemic, Freemasons worked together to help their communities. The United Grand Lodge of England, and its members, did all they could to help in the fight against Covid-19. We have seen remarkable stories from across the country of how our members came together – from helping to raise vital funds for the NHS and delivering food to the community, through to purchasing ambulances and manufacturing vital personal protective equipment (PPE). To support Freemasonry’s charitable response to the pandemic, UGLE and the Masonic Charitable Foundation, the Freemasons' charity, established the Freemasons’ COVID-19 Community Fund.
This Fund has helped to support a range of local and national charities and projects that are helping people through the current coronavirus pandemic and in total has donated £3m during the pandemic.
Last edited by TheFlyingBanana; 11th February 2024 at 20:10.
So clever my foot fell off.
Who would have thunk it is 2024.
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I think they have nights where dull bores are excluded too, so fewer (not less, as you’d call it) evenings for you.
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Last edited by Mj2k; 12th February 2024 at 07:30.
Ladies Night is not exclusively for women.
HTH.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Haven’t come across a ladies night since the north west night club scene in the 1980s.
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