Reply With QuoteI'd understand it on a watch with no quick change date mechanism that means you actually put a lot of wear on the watch when setting it to the correct date, but otherwise, no. When it's worn, wind it. When it isn't, let it wind down.
Looking to tap into the wealth of knowledge on here, so please chip in with any advice you may have....
I have been lucky enough to acquire a couple of nice hand-wound watches recently. IWC and Dornbluth, 10 and 15 years old respectively. Each with a power reserve of roughly 2 full days.
I have always been advised that it is good practice to keep automatic watches on a watch winder, rather than stop/start them between wearing.
Following this principle, is it therefore best to wind these two manual watches daily, even when not wearing them?
As part of a collection they will likely be worn for one or two days every couple of weeks. If that.
I'd understand it on a watch with no quick change date mechanism that means you actually put a lot of wear on the watch when setting it to the correct date, but otherwise, no. When it's worn, wind it. When it isn't, let it wind down.
I would disagree with keeping automatics on watch winders, sure a lot of people use them, but a lot of advice on here for a watch not worn very often is to let it run down and rest. I would suggest the same logic applies to manually wound watches.
Wind it up and set the time when ready to wear. I could understand people who have watches with multi complications keeping them going to avoid the hassle of having to set everything, but for a normal three hander with a date etc, let them run down.
Where's Paul, he'll know...
Thanks for the help gents.
No date on either if that's important. Just two main hands for hours and minutes, plus a sub dial for seconds on each. Dornbluth has a power reserve indicator, IWC does not.
I have always taken the view for both auto and hand wound to just set and wind when worn and run down in between.
Correct!Originally Posted by gbn13
Can’t be bothered to say any more on this thread, I’ve said it so many times, but much of what’s already been posted is based on total misconception.
That’s the problem with the internet, good advice and utter bollocks get an equal airing.
I own 23 mechanical watches, I’m happy to let some have a rest for several months........enough said unless anyone has credible evidence to the contrary!
As for watchwinders?.........don’t get me started!
Paul
Wind them when you wear them. Keeping them running at other times is just causing unnecessary wear.
I don't keep any watch running when not in use.
When you are using a manual wind, you'l get greatest precision if you wind once a day, at roughly the same time. That way the watch never falls below half power.
Last edited by paskinner; 23rd May 2018 at 21:12.
Wind it twice a day, all things being equal, it'll run even better. Wind in a morning and last thing at night for convenience, at the very least it'll keep the watch running if you forget once!
How often would you suggest one exercises a resting watch please ? Your suggestion on both manual and auto would be helpful.
I don’t have that many but it would be useful to have an idea as to how frequently to rotate if rather than when I fancy wearing one.
I’ve got a couple of hand wound watches, both without date. I just let them run down when not wearing. Can’t see any benefit in keeping them going.
Mine don’t get left more than a couple of weeks at a time but I would probably wind them now and again if they wear being left several months between wearing.
I am also interested in expert opinion on this. Currently rotating on a daily basis so whichever watch I pick needs to be wound, having sat idle for at least 3 days.
Did you read what had been posted, Paul? Do so, and then you'll see you're saying what you yourself have posted is thus also based on misconception as it's exactly what you said!
I usually let mine run down, manual and automatic, and I have watch winders!!
I often ignore the date and dont bother resetting it, lazy I know!!
to my mind as long as they are used once a month to keep oil flowing etc, all is good
Scottie
The problem with watchmakers is that if you put ten of us in a room and ask something about oils and oiling, you'll get at least ten different answers (some will change their mind during the discussion so, it may be more than ten!). As has been said by Paul, lots of people just post their opinion without any basis so, I'll try and explain my thoughts on this with some justification. I doubt that Paul and I see this any differently and for this one topic, you might find that most watchmakers agree. I'll go on a bit and hope to reach a conclusion...
A few things to start:
1. You have to assume that your watch was serviced correctly and oiled with the correct oils as recommended by the original manufacturer.
2. Cleaning of the mechanism prior to assembly is hugely important. I review everything under a microscope for cleanliness before assembly as any dirt present at the start will just form a grinding paste with the oil that you add. Also, correct rinsing of the cleaning agents is very important as if they are not rinsed off prior to oiling, they will affect the oil and can be the worst of anything in terms of causing wear (I'll reference the BHI for that as it's in their course notes).
3. The oils used in the service are not old and have been stored correctly. When you buy these oils (I use Moebius in the main), they have an expiry date typically about 4-5 years into the future and that assumes you store them in the dark and they are refrigerated. I'd consider it a bit cheeky to service your watch with oils that are just about to expire so discard them when there are only a couple of years remaining.
4. You don't open your watch and allow further dust and dirt in there. I know a lot of people like to look at the movements so, this happens among collectors. Also that the case is sealed and water resistant - if it's an open pocket watch, then I'd consider it differently.
Most manufacturers recommend a typical service interval of about 5 years so bearing in mind point 3 above, I would say that the oils are designed to work in the watch for some 5 to 10 years depending on how old they were when applied, and how the watch is treated after that point. The last point is important but is not controllable from our point of view. After the ten year period, I'd consider that the oils will be breaking down and drying out to such an extent that they are not doing anything.
I'd conclude from the above that you can assume your oils will be good from 5 to 10 years after the service.
If worn occasionally, then you can probably extend the service interval up to 10 years as you see fit (this goes against the manufacturers instructions but, they are your watches so, it's up to you - although I don't recommend it). If these are modern watches with good/cheap parts availability, then one attitude is to service it infrequently - you may pay more for parts (or you may not) when it's serviced but that may still be cheaper than more regular servicing. For vintage watches, I would not recommend extending the interval past the 5 years typically advised as parts are not always easy to obtain but, again, these are your watches. I don't know any watchmaker who is short of work so I would not try and push the regular servicing point on anyone.
A note of caution here is that the high beat calibres (above 18000) will generate more wear than the low beat ones.
All of that was preamble to get to the question here. Again, I'll reference the BHI (British Horological Institute) here as they were the people where I got most of my training. I'll talk about a typical pivot in a jewel here.
If we look at a Stribeck diagram then watches are over on the left in boundary lubrication area. Car engines are further over on the right so watches don't work like car engines and there are no decent comparisons to be made there such as starting your car every week or two to keep the oils flowing.
For boundary lubrication, we form a layer on the bearing surfaces to smooth out the imperfections and this enables most of the bearing load to be transferred through that layer and not by direct contact between the pivot and jewel (as an example). We use highly polished pivots anyway but they are still not perfectly smooth. The oils we use are specifically designed to do this and to stay in one place. That means if we put the oil in the jewel cup, it will stay there and form the layer on the two surfaces. Once it's formed that layer, it gets replenished as the pivots turn by the reservoir in the jewel cup. Eventually, of course, the reservoir becomes empty and we no longer have the lubrication to prevent wear as the two parts are bearing on each other directly.
So, by running your manual wind every few days (for example) or continuously running an automatic on a winder, you are not doing anything other than using up the oil in the jewel reservoir.
My conclusion is that you don't need to use an auto winder or run your watches regularly. Just don't let them go past five to ten years between services (depending on how you use them) as the oils will probably have broken down by then. If not in use, just leave them.
There are obviously a few other things to bear in mind:
a. Every time you use the crown, you will be wearing the crown seal and applying load to the keyless works and items that contacts.
b. As I said above, I wouldn't worry too much about modern watches but take care with vintage pieces where parts are difficult to find.
Me, I just leave them when not in use...
Any different opinions are welcome - like I say, "ten different watchmakers...".
Regards, Chris
You’ve been misinformed; that’s terrible advice.
That’s cleared that up then. What a tremendous post, thank you.
Is one way of understanding this, following the Stribeck Curve you mention, that in a watch there will always be metal-metal or metal-jewel contact, however well lubricated, so more running = more wear. Whereas in a car engine, correct lubrication and regular running will ensure minimal metal-metal contact so reducing wear?
Last edited by alfat33; 24th May 2018 at 12:18.
I've recently taken to watch winders because I wear 4 in a rotation at present. This means that by the time I wear watch 1 again, it's out of reserve due to the 3/4 day gap in wearing.
I'm not entirely convinced that the wear from winding and setting every 3 days plus unscrewing and rescrewing crown is less than the wear induced by being "fake worn" on a winder for 3 days.*
*should also add that I'm anal about minute hand being dead on the marker with minutes at 00 so "setting" often takes a few attempts if I'm dealing with a minute hand that has some bounce back.
So - unscrew, reset, reset, reset, rescrew = less wear than on a winder?
I don't really care about this oh you'll wear the gears stuff.
The gears would wear at the same rate as if someone (gasp) wore a watch solidly for 5-10 years between servicing, which is what they're designed for no?
Not being difficult but I find it hard to get my head around the idea that a moving watch is creating more damage than one that's regularly being unscrewed and reset etc, or, how it can matter that much with regular servicing?
Not exactly. In boundary lubrication, we have this layer that adheres to the bearing surfaces and that transmits the forces between the two parts so, there is not any strict metal-metal or metal-jewel contact except when the oil is gone or dried out. In those instances, the layer has gone and it's as you say. Also, contaminants (cleaner/dirt/dust) in the oil will make a sort of grinding paste and can cause a lot of wear. For me, if it's not running, the layer is constant and doesn't need to be topped up from the oil sink. It won't go away. You can liken this effect to snow skiing where we apply a wax to the ski to smooth out the roughness of the ski.
Wear in watches is mainly due to incorrect, dry or contaminated lubricants. Theoretically, there should be no wear if the watch is lubricated possibly but that can't always happen in reality.
One difference with cars, let's say a main bearing on a crankshaft, is that the oil doesn't stay in that location very well so, it eventually drains away into the sump and the two surfaces become dry. It's not designed to stay there and is designed to flow because when you start the engine, oil is fed at high pressure to the bearing and forms a film thicker than the surface roughness of the parts. So, the crankshaft is, sort of, floating on the oil (the same effect as water skiing is a better description as opposed to snow skiing, above) and the surfaces don't contact. If the pressure drops too low, then you'll get metal to metal contact. We don't have the high pressure option in watches and also don't need it because the parts move slowly with low load.
Against that, the problem with the boundary lubrication used in watches is that it doesn't work with the sort of speeds, loads and temperatures found in an engine. I only start my cars when I need them but, if they're stood for a long time (months for example), I like to take them out for a run to evaporate the water that is building up in the oil from the atmosphere, amongst other things such as flatting of the tyres. Most of the wear is caused during the first few seconds of running as the oil film builds up so, pointless to just start them to move the oil around, in my opinion.
By the way, I'm no tribologist but I need some of this information for watchmaking and used to be an aircraft engineer so needed some other knowledge.
Regards, Chris
Hats off to Chris for an excellent answer!
There's little to choose between a watch that's worn 24/7 and one that lives on a winder in terms of wear rate and breakdown of the oils, but what troubles me is a situation where the winder is causing the mainspring to slip because it's causing the watch to be in the fully wound situation for longer. A winder that's too fast will cause this. However, it should be possible to match a winder speed to the watch in such a way that it barely reaches this situation......but that's tricky to do.
The pro and anti-watch winder debate will always rumble on!
Paul
I wouldn't think it would either and think that what you're doing is fine because you apply the regular servicing rule. As I said above, "So, by running your manual wind every few days (for example) or continuously running an automatic on a winder, you are not doing anything other than using up the oil in the jewel reservoir".
To me, the issue is with people who are going with long service intervals (outside of what the manufacturer recommends) so are asking for trouble by running the watch all the time, especially if they are using an excessive number of winder turns per day for an auto. But you're not doing that so, you always have oil in the jewel reservoirs, for example. Most people don't service their watches regularly though and that's clear from sale adverts that state "not serviced in my possession..." - I think that seems to be the norm but I've not bothered to do a survey.
To me, it's not necessary to keep running a watch but everyone will have their own ways of doing things.
Regards, Chris
Thanks for clarifying Chris, very helpful.
This is a very good point as well. If you're using a lot of turns per day, then the spring may very well be slipping in the barrel a lot more than it was designed for. On the other hand, if you're very active this may be happening anyway but, it's less likely. Sometimes, depending on how carefully they've been set up, an auto will go into re-banking (excessive amplitude of the balance causing the impulse pin to hit the back of the fork) which is very bad for the watch but, like I said above, you need to assume your watch has been properly serviced.
For what it's worth, I tell my customers the following:
If it's a vintage auto: Don't use an auto winder as you don't need any additional wear possibilities on parts that are hard to find and expensive.
If it's a modern auto: Use an auto winder if you wish to keep the time and date aligned but, not for any other reason.
If it's a manual wind: Just wind it when you want to use it.
They are obviously free to follow my advice or not...
Agreed! Interesting discussion though. I'm not doing much today at the bench today for various reasons so have enjoyed getting involved.
Cheers, Chris
Thanks all, this has been very insightful... like some others I have been under the impression that intermittent winding was something to be actively encouraged. The discussion here has certainly given me enough info to weigh up the pros and cons and definitely made me think more about the servicing aspect.
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Cheers Chris.
I don't put vintages on a winder as I don't wear them regularly enough so I'll stick to my regime with the moderns :)
Sounds sensible to me Celia........that's twice in 1 week I`ve agreed with you, it's becoming a habit
Uhoh ;)Sounds sensible to me Celia........that's twice in 1 week I`ve agreed with you, it's becoming a habit
Another reason for using a winder in this situation is that if you've four mechanical watches all of which have top-level accuracy - something which one can enjoy in one's watches just for it - then keeping them running can be an additional layer of pleasure. When I had a manual that was running at +2s/d I used to wind it daily purely so I could appreciate the quality of its timekeeping.
I have 4 automatic watches that I wear for 6 weeks at a time. I don't know why I chose 6 weeks but I did. This obviously means that each watch is worn for 6 weeks and left unwound for 18 weeks and so far they are all deadly accurate, so it's doing them no harm at all as far as I can see.
I also have a gold JLC dress watch which is used about 8 times a year for just a few hours at a time in the evening if I am attending a formal event. Again it still keeps spot on time.
I think you can over worry a bit about watches.
Actually I have to say that the ROOs timekeeping has been remarkable on winder with zero deviation over a couple weeks.
This was a little surprising as when worn on right wrist it gains a second every 48hr.
Not worrying. Just finding interest in things that don't matter.
Agreed — in the specific case of a wearing pattern that sees a watch on the wrist just often enough that it runs down briefly between uses, the difference between frequent hand-winding/resetting and using a winder is probably too negligible to even bother thinking about.
(Though it's probably worth mentioning that winders have risks besides normal movement wear, as one owner of a platinum Vacheron found out upon discovering that his watch had shifted place on its holder in such a way that the bezel had been destroyed from grinding down on a metal winder component for a day.)
Also agreed that it's no big deal either way with regular servicing, given that the most-affected components in both scenarios — namely: the crown, crown tube, mainspring, mainspring barrel and reverser gears, plus the rotor axle for Rolex movements — are typically replaced as part of an overhaul.
Anyway, my intent wasn't to say that winders are completely terrible under any circumstances, but that the advice to keep watches on them indefinitely because it's always better than letting them sit undisturbed is mistaken.
Thanks for all the information- I will continue to rotate “as I feel” without concern!
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Ah. Yes. I wouldn't keep a watch I wore on highdays and holidays on a winder. That I agree causes unnecessary wear.
Was the ones I cycle through regularly that gave me pause to query.
Any help in the guessing game?https://www.barringtonwatchwinders.com/turns-per-day/#/
Just a quick thank you to everyone who has chipped in with valuable advice. Particularly ChrisN who provided a far more detailed response than I ever expected.
I am also surprised by the unanimity from you all on the subject.
My response has been to, not only let the hand-wound watches wind down, but also to switch off the watch winder that my 'best' automatic watch has been on for the last few years.
Much appreciated gents. Keep up the good work.
I agree.
This has been a great read - especially the level of detail and the comparison with car engines from Chris. Of my two main “daily” autos, 1 gets a bit more wear than the other, and once you factor in some further rotation it means that I have 1 auto tends to be on about every third day. I’ll often give it a hand wind towards the end of its 40-some hours reserve, just so it’s ready... but I understand and can appreciate the points against. As Der Amf points out, there are other reasons why it’s nice to have a watch running...
Quick question to the assembled experts if I may... In the scenario above, (i.e. topping up a resting auto’s reserve of power, fully aware of the arguments pro and anti but wishing to do so nonetheless), I have always preferred unscrewing and winding the crown rather than “giving it a bit of a shake.” Am I correct in this preference?
Interesting reading.
I have some hand wind watches and probably wind them a couple of times a month, as I get some strange pleasure from doing so!! Not bothered about the pro's and cons really, just like seeing 'em working.
I also have an auto winder for when I think an auto needs a little nudge...........;-)
If you're just topping up the reserve as it's close to running down, I'd use the crown as well. The auto systems are not that effective as there is little mass and inertia in the rotors so, they are geared such that one rotation doesn't do much.
For a typical watch (I'm being very general here but I think I originally worked this out for a mid '60s Omega 550 series calibre):
You need 6 to 8 turns of the barrel to build up full reserve.
As the crown is geared down by about four, you need 25 to 35 turns of the crown to bring the watch from no reserve to full reserve. I did buy a new Omega Constellation (cal 1120 which is basically an ETA2892-2) back in the nineties and I remember the instructions saying something like "give the crown 20 winds when picking up from stopped" so, they are trying to get you to most of the reserve and the auto is really just to top up from there.
For a full rotor automatic, you need 2 or 3 turns of the rotor to move the ratchet wheel (that charges the spring) one tooth so, that's 150+ turns of the rotor to turn the barrel one revolution and so, 1000+ rotor turns to build to full reserve. This means that if you positioned the watch vertically and rotated it about a horizontal axis, you'd need to make 1000+ turns to bring to full reserve. A few rotations is not really going to make any difference so, the crown has to be the way to go.
I just looked at that Barrington website posted by anz3001 and it basically agrees with these numbers. They say 650 turns every 24 hours for an Omega 1120, and as full reserve for an 1120 is 44 hours, that implies their calculations show 650*44/24 = 1200 turns (approx) for full reserve. Like I say, my numbers are generic but many watches should be in that range +/-25%.
Out of interest, I was taught that automatic watches should not be hand wound as the crown seals (and the keyless works) are not designed for it. I work mainly on vintage watches and have never noticed any significant difference in the crown seals between manual and automatic winds. I've never really gone in to differences in the keyless works but when winding, there are only a few parts involved and I don't see any particular difference again. If I look at the mid sixties Omegas again, the 550 series automatics and the 600 series manual wind use generally the same parts in this area...
Cheers, Chris
^
Quality post, thanks! It's interesting to read a detailed and well-written explanation of how these things work.
Agree with Chris, an Omega 550 takes around 25 twists of the crown to fully wind. The ETA 2892 (aka Omega 1120) takes around 60 and the ETA 2824 takes around 30 twists.
As for hand winding automatics, I think the biggest problem is the stress placed on the reversers, which end up spinning rapidly during hand-winding. There's also an issue with ETA 2824 movements which are prone to wearing the mainplate if excessively hand-wound. The back of the winding wheel rubs against the mainplate and if the watch is hand-wound frequently over a period of years this can cause problems. Eventually the sliding pinion and winding wheel won't stay in alignment and the watch won't hand-wind, it's always worth checking this when buying. The keyless work parts on the modern ETAs are much less robust than typically found on the old watches and consequently they're prone to wearing. When I service ETA movements I always grease the back of the winding wheel even though this isn`t included in the service Data Sheet, I do this on all watches if there's a witness mark indicating that contact is taking place.
When I wear an automatic watch I give it around 10-15 twists of the crown then wear it. Despite my involvement with watches I don`t over-think this point, I just do it!
As with all things, wear and tear on the watch will be less of an issue if it's lubricated properly. ETA 2824s can start to feel a little stiff to hand-wind if not lubricated, and the Omega 550s get the characteristic gritty feel when the reverser is dry or worn (or both).
+1, many thanks!^
Quality post, thanks! It's interesting to read a detailed and well-written explanation of how these things work.
Agree, those ETA calibres do seem prone to this Paul and, as a guess, half of the watchmakers I know are greasing the plate/winding pinion contact area. It shouldn't happen as you know, because the stem should be supporting the winding pinion and keeping it clear of the plate on the outside. If I see that witness mark, I look to replace those parts first but other small areas of wear can mean you can't guarantee everything will stay in alignment - you can just go on and on, replacing the setting lever etc. It's annoying and you don't tend to see it, as you say, on older calibres that have a more robust keyless works.
Looking at some online watchmaker's photos, they don't bother to separate those 550 reversers (5501464 winding gear) so they are never properly cleaned/oiled and just wear themselves out. I see this in the central plate where the satellite wheels are pivoted and the holes become elongated allowing the satellites to lean over and then dig into the other parts. They are a pain to open up as you know, but as you can only buy the total assembly at £100-150, at some point, the owner is in for a nasty surprise! Shame they don't just sell the central plate really.
Cheers, Chris
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