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Thread: A complete watch.

  1. #51
    Master Rinaldo1711's Avatar
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    Re: A complete watch.

    One of the most enjoyable threads I've seen - Thanks Bob.

  2. #52
    Master JC180's Avatar
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    Re: A complete watch.

    Thanks to Bob and thanks also to Eddie for this great new forum.

    Very much looking forward to the continuation of this project, no pressure Bob but you have the expectations of the forum weighing down on your shoulders, I hope they are broad!

    Light a cigar and take it easy :thumbright:

    Jacob

  3. #53

    Re: A complete watch.

    Okay, now that we've had a Chinese side dish, back to the main course. All I've got to do now is rebuilt the 613, make and print a dial, sort out a case and hands, and put it all together. Let's start with rebuilding the movement. I'm going to go slow, and the pictures won't be the best, as, for this, it is much easier to use a prime with auto focus (40mm pancake).

    I'll start with the barrel.

    I have a nice, shiny new mainspring, so it doesn't need oiling or cleaning.


    When you take the mainspring out of the package, it is coiled and ready to go.


    You just place it over the barrel, and push it in. Use notes or pictures to make sure it is in the correct orientation. Also, make sure that the mainspring, which hangs down a bit from the holder, is in the barrel.



    You'll notice the finger cots I'm wearing. (My wife doesn't like me answering the door when I have them on. ;)). This is because I'm at the stage where I don't touch anything with my skin. I'm going to push it in with my thumbs while I'm holding the barrel.

    So, now the spring is in the barrel.


    Now the arbor has to be pushed in through the center coil of the spring. This can be a bit dodgy. I try putting it in at an angle then snapping it up. Make sure it goes in the right way. Look at your notes and/or pictures. I've put it in the wrong way on a similar Omega calibre, and damaged the barrel getting it out. (The Omega barrels are pretty thin.)


    Then you snap the top back on, and it is ready to be put in the movement.


    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:08.

  4. #54

    Re: A complete watch.

    Since the main wheel is under the barrel bridge, it has to go on first. This is something to keep track of in notes/pictures. It is done differently in different movements.



    Next the barrel bridge, click spring, ratchet wheel, crown wheel, and click. I'm inclined to grease screw holes (tiny, tiny dab). Also you need to oil some stuff here as you put it on, e.g., top of the barrel arbor, crown wheel, click and click spring.



    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:08.

  5. #55
    Master Bristolian's Avatar
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    Re: A complete watch.

    This really is fascinating stuff, Bob. :)

    I find it rather relaxing watching someone else do the tricky stuff - It's well beyond my patience Im afraid!.

    Regards

    David

  6. #56

    Re: A complete watch.

    Now the wheels. Best to take notes/pictures telling what's what. But, you can figure it out anyway. Usually the escape wheel goes on first, then the rest in order.


    The wheel cock goes over the wheels, with the pivots fitting in jewel holes. It is sometimes a bit tricky to get them all lined up. A toothpick, or somesuch helps. It is important not to tight the screws holding the bridge on until you are sure the pivots are in the jewel holes. Otherwise you are going to had some damaged pivots. The escape wheel can be a bit tricky. After the cock is on, you can check the wheel train by gently pushing the barrel. It should make the wheels turn. The is also when you should check the shake (play).


    The pallet is next. It too can be a bit tricky.


    That's all for this side of the movement for now. I'll do the other side, leaving the balance until I'm ready to fire it up, and the indirect seconds pinion/cock until it is ready to go.

    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:09.

  7. #57
    Grand Master
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    Re: A complete watch.

    Looking forward to the next installment. :)

    By the way, doesn't putting grease on screws allow them to loosen more easily?

  8. #58

    Re: A complete watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Thein
    Looking forward to the next installment. :)

    By the way, doesn't putting grease on screws allow them to loosen more easily?
    Yes. But it doesn't mean that they will loosen accidentally.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  9. #59

    Re: A complete watch.

    Find a crown (temporary) for the stem, put on the keyless works, and a bit of the motion works (that bit held by the set bridge). The bits under the set bridge need to be oiled before the set bridge goes in. Sometimes a pivot for a wheel (usually the 3rd) does as well, but not in this case.


    Now the winding mechanism works. So, I can oil the wheel pivots on this side, put in balance jewels, then return to the other side to oil the wheel pivots and to install the balance. The rest of the motion works and calendar stuff can wait until I've got the movement working and tested (knock on wood). This won't be until tomorrow or the next day.

    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:09.

  10. #60
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    Re: A complete watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by rfrazier
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Thein
    Looking forward to the next installment. :)

    By the way, doesn't putting grease on screws allow them to loosen more easily?
    Yes. But it doesn't mean that they will loosen accidentally.

    Best wishes,
    Bob
    I guess the surface tension would keep them in place?

  11. #61
    Master lysanderxiii's Avatar
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    Re: A complete watch.

    Grease and oil reduce friction, they do not eliminate it altogether.

    A threaded fastener stays in place because the force due to sliding friction exceeds the forces trying to rotate it. Given the very shallow contact angle, and proper torque on the screws, the reduction in friction due to the grease will not make a big difference in the sliding friction. It will, however, prevent galling and corrosion adhering.

  12. #62

    Re: A complete watch.

    Now to oil stuff, and put on the balance.

    Here's a picture of the oil on the balance cap stone on the dial side. The oil covers the inside 2/3rds. I keep the stone in place using Rodico. After the oil applied, I just put the cap on top, and the capillary action of the oil sucks it in place (usually).


    Then the balance cap goes in the shock housing. This turned out to be a pain, as the little spring from the shock absorber came off completely. I got it back on eventually, but it took a while.


    Now for the balance. I had hoped to use my balance holder, but, wouldn't you know it, Omega put the place for the screw off to the side rather than straight in, and off to the "wrong side" as well. So, after I got it set up, I realized I couldn't use it. So, I had to use Rodico to hold the balance upside down while I reattached the balance wheel to the balance cock. (No real reason why it had to come off in the first place.)


    Oil the cap stone on the movement side, put the cap back in its housing, oil the wheels, and grease the pallet stone, then give it a wind. It lives!


    Here's the result on the timer after setting the beat. I'm not going to do much more to it. Perhaps do a fine adjustment of the rate, but that's about it.


    The amplitude looks very good. The mean rate doesn't matter at the moment as it can easily be adjusted to a second or two. The difference between the fastest and slowest is 8.46 s/d, which isn't spectacular, but still pretty darn good.

    Later I'll put the calendar stuff back on, and the centre seconds pinion. But, it looks good to go. Now it needs a dial.

    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:10.

  13. #63
    Master Karl's Avatar
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    Re: A complete watch.

    Great to see it all coming together nicely, best thread ever :cheers:

    karl

  14. #64
    Master JC180's Avatar
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    Re: A complete watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl
    Great to see it all coming together nicely, best thread ever :cheers:

    karl
    seconded :salute:

  15. #65
    Master Rinaldo1711's Avatar
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    Re: A complete watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl
    Great to see it all coming together nicely, best thread ever :cheers:

    karl
    Thirded :)

  16. #66
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    Re: A complete watch.

    Unbelievably great work! And all this in a shed - superb. A truly great thread, thanks for sharing your hard work so far, will look forward to the next instalment. Now if only I was a quarter as talented!
    /vince ..


  17. #67

    Re: A complete watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by VinceR
    Unbelievably great work! And all this in a shed - superb. A truly great thread, thanks for sharing your hard work so far, will look forward to the next instalment. Now if only I was a quarter as talented!
    Thanks!

    Actually, only the dirty work is done in a shed. The rest of the work is done in a room in the house. Here are a couple of pictures of my work area for the "clean" work.





    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:10.

  18. #68

    Re: A complete watch.

    I like how you have arranged a high table for working with watches. If I could manage such an arrangement I could have it without risking divorce. :wink:

  19. #69

    Re: A complete watch.

    I've been having second thoughts about the dial pattern I showed earlier. It may be that the markers overpower the numbers. Consequently, I've decided that I can't decide until I've printed something. So, I'm going to make a plate for each, print them, then decide.

    So, I edited the SVG file so that I had both patterns. The patterns are make front to back. This is so the side of the paper with the toner on it is against the plate. Otherwise, the light would get under the image and the image would not be as clean as could be.


    The patterns are printed on tracing paper, for use with the photo-sensitive plates.


    The tools I need. Exposure unit, air blower, brush, and plates (hidden in bag, to keep out the light)


    The exposure unit has two UVA fluorescent tubes.


    The first exposure is for 70 seconds, with the image on the tracing paper between the light source and the photo-sensitive plate. The light hardens all of the photo-sensitive emulsion on the plate, except where the image blocks the light.


    Another exposure is make for 70 seconds. This is done with a special film with very precise, fine lines (300 lpi), which creates a screen type pattern within the image area. This second exposure with the screen is required for this sort of plate in order to control the depth of the etch. The plates I will use for the final image don't use a screen, they are "open etch", which is better for fine lines. I've not used them yet. ( And am not using them for this test as they are more expensive.)


    After the exposure, for this sort of plate, water is used to wash out the emulsion that hasn't harden because it hasn't been exposed to light. I put them in the kitchen sink.


    After a couple of minues, the image starts to show.


    Then I use an air compressor to get the water out of the image.


    Here is a the plate after I've used the compressor on it.


    After a complete air drying of the plate, there is a post processing exposure of 5 minutes to make all of the emulsion really hard.


    Then the plates are baked for 30 minutes at 120C. This hardens them further. They should be good for 5000-10000 impressions. (I'll do, maybe, half a dozen.)

    So, here are the finished plates.


    The one with the lighter hour markers is fine. I didn't allow the one with the heavier markers to dry long enough before the post exposure, so it stuck to the glass, and isn't perfect. However, it is plenty good for this test.

    I'll make a print tomorrow, I hope.

    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:11.

  20. #70
    Grand Master
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    Re: A complete watch.

    Oooh...very interesting. :D

  21. #71
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    Re: A complete watch.

    Nothing sensible to add except: These posts are absolutely amazing Bob :)

    Looking forward to seeing the progress.

    Cheers,
    Mabuse

  22. #72

    Re: A complete watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mabuse
    Nothing sensible to add except: These posts are absolutely amazing Bob :)

    Looking forward to seeing the progress.

    Cheers,
    Mabuse
    I subscribe all said! Specially interested in the final results for the dial. I still donīt get how you do them.

  23. #73

    Re: A complete watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by angeche

    I subscribe all said! Specially interested in the final results for the dial. I still donīt get how you do them.
    I'll do a print late this afternoon/early evening. (After my wife heads off. Best not to use the dining room for dial printing before she leaves. Not that she would object, but it would clutter things.) I'll take plenty of pictures, and try to be clear in my explanation. If you have questions afterwards, I would be pleased to try to answer them.

    Or, if you have any questions about how the above plates work, let me know. But, here is a general description. The plates are evenly coated with a very viscous emulsion. The emulsion is such that, as it is, it would wash away in water. However, when exposed to light (UVA, approx 360nm) it hardens, and no longer can be washed away by water. An image placed on the emulsion/plate blocks the light just where the image is (the dark ink/toner). The area surrounding the image, however, is exposed to the light. So, the emulsion under the image stays susceptible to being washed away by water, while the surrounding area doesn't. So, when you put the plate in water, the emulsion that was protected by the image washes way, but the surrounding emulsion doesn't. This leaves an etch in the emulsion (on the plate) in the form of the image.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  24. #74

    Re: A complete watch.

    Here's what the etch in the plate looks like, if a screen is used. The ink goes in the open areas. I'll show the plate using an open etch, once I've made it.



    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:12.

  25. #75

    Re: A complete watch.

    Here's the printing. As I said, I just wanted to see what these patterns looked like when actually printed. So, the print result isn't very good. (In particular, I didn't worry about getting the image centered, or preparing the substrate properly --- it is just spray primer). I'm documenting the test as much as possible, rather than the actual printing (when I do it), as it matters less if I interrupt to take pictures etc. When I print the actual dial, I'll document just the things that I do differently, e.g., register the print on the dial.

    Here's the pad printer I use. It is completely manual. Indeed, I took off the bits that where useful for increasing the production rate.


    Here are the supplies I need. Winsor and Newton's Griffin paint and Liquin additive. These are alkyd based. That speeds drying, and helps with sticking to the pad.


    Here's one of the plates placed in the printer.


    Another angle.


    I put some paint and Liquin on a bit of acetate, which I use as a disposable mixing surface.


    Mix it up well.


    Smear it on the plate. Some goes in the etched areas.


    The doctor blade is used to scrape off the excess paint.


    The only ink left is in the etched area.


    The pad is positioned over the image on the plate. The lever is pressed down and the ink is picked up from the etched area.


    The ink is now on the pad.


    I took the pad off the printer, so that you can see this more clearly.


    The pad is pulled forward on rails, and positioned over the substrate.


    Then the lever is pushed down, and the ink transfers from the pad to the substrate.


    And, here is the result.


    And the pity of it all is that I've still not decided whether the markers are too strong, i.e., whether I'll go for the pattern on the left (weak markers) or the pattern on the right (strong markers).

    Best wishes,
    Bob

    PS. I've decided to go with the weaker markers, i.e., the one on the left.
    RLF
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:12.

  26. #76
    Grand Master
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    Re: A complete watch.

    The more I see of your work Bob, the more amazed I am .. great stuff!
    /vince ..


  27. #77

    Re: A complete watch.

    Now that I've decided which pattern to use, I've made a good plate (I hope). I've not used these open etch plates before. Instead of washing out with water, they wash out with alcohol. They are more expensive (about twice as much), and are supposed to give more impressions before they wear out (like I care).

    Compare it to the one above using a screen. The image area looks like it is sticking out, but it is really an etch, or indentation.


    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:13.

  28. #78

    Re: A complete watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by VinceR
    The more I see of your work Bob, the more amazed I am .. great stuff!
    Thanks. I'm getting there with this one, slow but (I hope) sure.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  29. #79

    Re: A complete watch.

    The new plates are pretty snazzy. Even on the crummy substrate they print better (although I need to adjust the ink).

    I printed a number of tests, trying to sort things out. Here is the last. (The smudge by "10" isn't from the printing.)


    Here is a close-up.


    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:13.

  30. #80

    Re: A complete watch.

    Great posts again Bob, thankyou.

    The world of printing is something I would know absolutely nothing about if it was not for these posts and your previous "How to" work on dial printing. It has helped inspire me to make my own ( though more simply ), I think I will be aiming for a full lume dial underneath a bubble-jet printed decal.

    regards

    siggy

  31. #81

    Re: A complete watch.

    :shock: :shock: :shock: :scratch: :sad5: I will never get there, for sure. Just impressive, Bob.

  32. #82
    Master JCJM's Avatar
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    Re: A complete watch.

    Heavens Bob,

    you are The Man :shock:

    Iīve though this for a long time but not until now Iīve got the nerve to say that Iīd surely would like to have one of yours.

    It is understandable though a great pity that you dont do them for sale :blackeye:

    Astonishing!

    Best

  33. #83

    Re: A complete watch.

    That's extremely kind of you, JCJM.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  34. #84

    Re: A complete watch.

    WOW! what a top thread!.

    I think I have just learnt more about watches and their movements in the last half hours reading than I thought possible.
    Have to say I'm really taken with the thought of designing and printing dials, that looks facinating.

    Thanks Bob for a very inspirational post, I love making things but suddenly I'm having a Toad of Toad Hall moment :)

    Poop Poop!

    Regards

    Tim

  35. #85
    Master
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    Re: A complete watch.

    I've been reading this in work breaks for the last couple of days - fantastic thread and workmanship.

  36. #86

    Re: A complete watch.

    Bob, a doubt on the dials. This way you have paper dials. Have you ever thought of working with the plates directly? I mean, cutting out the dial from it would mean having a metal dial.

  37. #87

    Re: A complete watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by angeche
    Bob, a doubt on the dials. This way you have paper dials. Have you ever thought of working with the plates directly? I mean, cutting out the dial from it would mean having a metal dial.
    The tests I've shown are printed on a bit of brass that has been spray painted with primer. All of the dials I've made in the last couple of years have been brass. The dial I use will be brass as well.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  38. #88

    Re: A complete watch.

    OK, I was getting it wrong. That makes your technique even more interesting......

  39. #89

    Re: A complete watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by angeche
    OK, I was getting it wrong. That makes your technique even more interesting......
    No problem. I should have been clearer in my explanation.

    The printing can be done on just about any substrate, given the right ink. Another advantage of pad printing, one that was important in my decision to switch to pad printing from screen printing, is that you can print on uneven or curved surfaces, e.g., dials with subdials and domed dials.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  40. #90

    Re: A complete watch.

    Have you tried printing over strange materials such as carbon fiber? I am starting to think about dials done with exotic materials......

  41. #91

    Re: A complete watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by angeche
    Have you tried printing over strange materials such as carbon fiber? I am starting to think about dials done with exotic materials......
    No, I've not done it. But you can print on just about anything, I think. You just have to get the right ink. (The ink I have is supposed to be pretty versatile, e.g.)

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  42. #92
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    Re: A complete watch.

    Bob,

    You are a shining example of the Britsh way of toiling away in sheds, and producing remarkable things using basic tools and equipment. It is, therefore, extremely inconvenient that you aren't British.

    Anyway, I'm eagerly looking forward to the dial being made and printed.

  43. #93
    Master
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    Re: A complete watch.

    Really amazing thread, Bob - I've only just discovered it. It's been astonishing watching you move from trying out some very basic things to this during the time I've been on TZUK.

    Looking forward to seeing more...

  44. #94

    Re: A complete watch.

    There may be a bit of a hiatus here for two reasons. 1. Term is starting. 2. The three movements I prepared, Omega 613, 601 and Record 6113, are all > 11.5 ligne. The case I decided on, 41mm with display back, came with a really nice spacer for 11.5 ligne. I could, of course, alter another spacer or, even, make one, but I'm lazy, so I'll take the easy way out. Consequently, I'm going to overhaul three 11.5 ligne movements, and see if I want to use any of them first. Then I can make the dial for it.

    If everything fits, and I can get it working properly, I'm inclined to use this one, an MST 414.



    Otherwise, probably one of these two.
    Wittnauer 11SSG (The balance is off because the hairspring is dodgy. I just happen to have a new replacement. :))

    Wittnauer 11WS2


    But, I'll make sure I have the stuff to make spacers for the larger movements. You've got to be flexible, when using flotsam and jetsam.

    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:14.

  45. #95
    Master Jeroen's Avatar
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    Re: A complete watch.

    Great thread Bob,

    compliments on how you make things clear and look less challenging...

    I've thought about rejuvinating movements of some of my watches but currently stick to overhauling bigger mechanical things......
    (The dexterity needed for working on an old motorcycle engine is probably somewhat less...)

    looking forward to the next of your posts.

    Jeroen

  46. #96
    Craftsman
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    Re: A complete watch.

    What an excellent post! Thanks for the effort of documenting each step- can I just ask if, when reassembling the wheel train, you oiled the pinions, the jewels, or nothing at all? I'm a novice, but have an almost-complete Smiths movement (missing the stem/crown only AFAICT) locked solid with old sludge and muck that I fancy using as a guinea pig for cleaning/relubricating.

  47. #97

    Re: A complete watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by glazba
    What an excellent post! Thanks for the effort of documenting each step- can I just ask if, when reassembling the wheel train, you oiled the pinions, the jewels, or nothing at all? I'm a novice, but have an almost-complete Smiths movement (missing the stem/crown only AFAICT) locked solid with old sludge and muck that I fancy using as a guinea pig for cleaning/relubricating.

    Most jewels of the wheel train have oil sinks. I fill them about 1/2 of the way. Here is a very good guide on oiling, the BHI's (British Horological Institute) The Practical Lubrication of Clocks and Watches. (PDF)

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  48. #98
    Master lysanderxiii's Avatar
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    Re: A complete watch.


  49. #99

    Re: A complete watch.

    P. 15, BHI's, The Practical Lubrication of Clocks and Watches.
    The oil sinks of the jewel holes should be about half full; there must be no oil on
    any other part of the jewel.
    Best wishes,
    Bob

  50. #100
    Journeyman Jimster's Avatar
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    Re: A complete watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by rfrazier


    Most jewels of the wheel train have oil sinks. I fill them about 1/2 of the way. Here is a very good guide on oiling, the BHI's (British Horological Institute) The Practical Lubrication of Clocks and Watches. (PDF)

    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Bob

    That's an excellent guide. Is this part of a BHI series - I couldn't find anything similar on their website?

    Enjoying the thread by the way. Look forward to the next installment.

    Jimster

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